29107 réponses à ce sujet

[Kim Shepard]

My favorites have a case of very bad luck. Saren. D: I worry about TIM and Kai Leng too - they're also in my "top five" list. If I hadn't read all of the ME2 spoilers, I would have thought Garrus followed the pattern as well. They all need to hide behind a biotic barrier somewhere, although I'm not that worried about Garrus. When my favorites are good guys, they tend to almost die and survive (but even they get killed off every now and then, like Nihlus.)

Faerlyte wrote...

The problem I have with Reapers understanding emotion and just deciding that it's inferior, is that anything that can decide that something is one thing or another, can also decide at any point that it's NOT, and some will, because that's the nature of things - we've already seen that with the Geth. The ability to understand leaves the door open to be reasoned with.

I didn't mean that the Reapers would actually have emotion, just that they should have a certain amount of understanding from watching and studying organics. They probably think of it as a weakness of organics because it can interfere with logic. I agree that they shouldn't be reasoned with. That didn't go over well when Saren tried it.

Just because someone isn't a love interest doesn't make them less interesting as people.

And a lot of people feel this way.  Garrus and Tali in ME1 are proof of that. Most of my favorites aren't romance options, or in the case of Garrus, they didn't start out that way.

[Aeowyn]

Well, some people call Garrus a Mary Sue as well. It makes me lol.



I want more friendship dialogue with other NPCs and more dialogue with Garrus. Also, I would really like to visit Palaven in ME3.

[Kim Shepard]

Unless I'm not remembering the definition of a Mary Sue correctly, I thought they had no flaws, are perfect in every way, and everyone loves them. xD Garrus' track record proves that is not true.

[mellifera]

People are quick to throw that term at characters they dislike. It's pretty irritating.

[Aeowyn]

Yup same here. Read someone calling him that because he survived a rocket from a gunship.

Eh...survive a rocket from a gunship with very serious scarring and near death = not Mary Sue

Survive a rocket from a gunship without any injuries because his protective unicorn flew in from above and threw a rainbow shield over him = Mary Sue (or the imagination of someone who is probably smoking something)

Modifié par Aeowyn, 09 décembre 2010 - 09:35 .

[Kim Shepard]

Considering what other characters (most importantly, Shepard) have survived, and with the awesome technology of the future, it's not impossible to survive a rocket blast. Not even resurrection is impossible anymore.

The unicorn idea is hilarious though. xD

[Alienmorph]

Aeowyn wrote...

I want more friendship dialogue with other NPCs and more dialogue with Garrus. Also, I would really like to visit Palaven in ME3.

I think this is quite plausible. LotSB's files shows that Garrus might have some familiar troubles to solve on his homeworld. It's a nice excuse for a side\\\\loyalty quest.

And don't worry about that Mary Sue thing... at least there're no pro-headshot banners for Garrus.

Modifié par Alienmorph, 09 décembre 2010 - 10:14 .

[Collider]

yukidama wrote...

People are quick to throw that term at characters they dislike. It's pretty irritating.

It's look like they're not even paying attention to the game.

[Sialater]

Collider wrote...

yukidama wrote...

People are quick to throw that term at characters they dislike. It's pretty irritating.

It's look like they're not even paying attention to the game.

They're certainly playing a different game than we are.

[IndelibleJester]

The term should be Gary Stu, and no, he's not one... No one in the Mass Effect games are. Mary Sue/Gary Stu characters are very easily identifiable. They are the character you pity the most, the most powerful, and the one that everyone loves except for one or two people who have it out specifically for them.



Even Shepard can't be a Mary Sue - barely any of Mass Effect focuses on their personal lives besides the here and now, they're not "PITY ME PLZ", etc, etc.

[Sialater]

IndelibleJester wrote...

The term should be Gary Stu, and no, he's not one... No one in the Mass Effect games are. Mary Sue/Gary Stu characters are very easily identifiable. They are the character you pity the most, the most powerful, and the one that everyone loves except for one or two people who have it out specifically for them.

Even Shepard can't be a Mary Sue - barely any of Mass Effect focuses on their personal lives besides the here and now, they're not "PITY ME PLZ", etc, etc.

If Shepard were a total Mary/Marty Sue/Stu, the Coucil wouldn't be air-quoting him/her.  They'd ask how many ships and how fast does s/he need them. 


And Garrus isn't a Marty Stu by a long shot.

[ciaweth]

Sialater wrote...

IndelibleJester wrote...

The term should be Gary Stu, and no, he's not one... No one in the Mass Effect games are. Mary Sue/Gary Stu characters are very easily identifiable. They are the character you pity the most, the most powerful, and the one that everyone loves except for one or two people who have it out specifically for them.

Even Shepard can't be a Mary Sue - barely any of Mass Effect focuses on their personal lives besides the here and now, they're not "PITY ME PLZ", etc, etc.

If Shepard were a total Mary/Marty Sue/Stu, the Coucil wouldn't be air-quoting him/her.  They'd ask how many ships and how fast does s/he need them. 


And Garrus isn't a Marty Stu by a long shot.

Also, they would both be psychic and wield katanas for no reason.

[Sialater]

ciaweth wrote...

Sialater wrote...

IndelibleJester wrote...

The term should be Gary Stu, and no, he's not one... No one in the Mass Effect games are. Mary Sue/Gary Stu characters are very easily identifiable. They are the character you pity the most, the most powerful, and the one that everyone loves except for one or two people who have it out specifically for them.

Even Shepard can't be a Mary Sue - barely any of Mass Effect focuses on their personal lives besides the here and now, they're not "PITY ME PLZ", etc, etc.

If Shepard were a total Mary/Marty Sue/Stu, the Coucil wouldn't be air-quoting him/her.  They'd ask how many ships and how fast does s/he need them. 


And Garrus isn't a Marty Stu by a long shot.

Also, they would both be psychic and wield katanas for no reason.

And fart rainbows.

[RestARose13]

Sialater wrote...

ciaweth wrote...

Sialater wrote...

IndelibleJester wrote...

The term should be Gary Stu, and no, he's not one... No one in the Mass Effect games are. Mary Sue/Gary Stu characters are very easily identifiable. They are the character you pity the most, the most powerful, and the one that everyone loves except for one or two people who have it out specifically for them.

Even Shepard can't be a Mary Sue - barely any of Mass Effect focuses on their personal lives besides the here and now, they're not "PITY ME PLZ", etc, etc.

If Shepard were a total Mary/Marty Sue/Stu, the Coucil wouldn't be air-quoting him/her.  They'd ask how many ships and how fast does s/he need them. 


And Garrus isn't a Marty Stu by a long shot.

Also, they would both be psychic and wield katanas for no reason.

And fart rainbows.

Don't forget some sort of magical transformation.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Sialater wrote...

And fart rainbows.

I almost choked on my drink.  Thanks :innocent:

Kim Shepard wrote...

My favorites have a case of very bad luck. Saren. D: I worry about TIM and Kai Leng too - they're also in my "top five" list. If I hadn't read all of the ME2 spoilers, I would have thought Garrus followed the pattern as well. They all need to hide behind a biotic barrier somewhere, although I'm not that worried about Garrus. When my favorites are good guys, they tend to almost die and survive (but even they get killed off every now and then, like Nihlus.).

Hmm.  Yeah, I have a feeling your favorite JE character (who also happens to be a fan favorite in general for his awesomitude) is going to get the axe.  But that's just my speculation on who you'll like.  Again, I repeat, DON'T SPOIL IT.  It'll be pretty obvious what you can and cannot change during the gameplay, so hopefully you won't end up trying to reload it.

On character whininess--as someone who does level that charge at BioWare characters (and Obsidian characters) more than any other dev's characters, let me explain my thought process.  Here's what I posted on the DA2 forums in regards to LIs, but I think it sums up my attitude toward NPCs in general:

NPCs, I will happily be your friend or even lover.  I will snipe, spill drinks on the Citadel, snark, eat cheese, sing songs, hunt devils, and consult space hamsters with you.  I will support and enable your growth as a person to the best of my ability.  Because that's what friends do.  But I will not be your therapist.  I will not sit there and listen to you whine incessantly about your dead spouse, estranged child, daddy issues, mommy issues, dead dog, or toe bunions.  I will happily help you find a therapist, but if you can't deal with your problems in a reasonably constructive manner without sobbing on my shoulder every other conversation, I'm kicking you out.  You're just not cool enough to be around me.  END OF LINE.

Generally, I have zero tolerance for characters whose development REQUIRES that my PC act as their personal therapist and crutch.  Or personal therapy romance, which is ten zillion times worse   Sure the line between friend/mentor and personal therapist can get blurry especially with BioWare/Obsidian NPCs, and I'm willing to work with that (Jack is an excellent example).  But as soon as the character dives headfirst into "needs serious help and won't get it or shut up" territory, my patience and sympathy evaporates.  I feel like it's a failure of perspective and/or maturity on the part of the NPC to fixate on one topic all the time (again, Aerie with her wings) when a) the PC usually has worse troubles and the world's ending.  Or maybe I'm just a bad person.  That too 

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 09 décembre 2010 - 09:22 .

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

Totally agree there Sable. I like strong characters who can cope with there own problems and don't feel the need to pore over all there woes. And I really respect characters who have had a rough time, but they still cope with it and rise above it. Like Garrus. He talks about his dead squad only because of his loyalty mission, he doesn't get all 'Shepard, you must therapize me!' (Or whatever the correct term would be...)

Well, the Liara thread has been locked. I have never even seen a warning on this thread, Garrus thread is so awesome!!

[Sable Rhapsody]

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

Totally agree there Sable. I like strong characters who can cope with there own problems and don't feel the need to pore over all there woes. And I really respect characters who have had a rough time, but they still cope with it and rise above it. Like Garrus. He talks about his dead squad only because of his loyalty mission, he doesn't get all 'Shepard, you must therapize me!' (Or whatever the correct term would be...)
Well, the Liara thread has been locked. I have never even seen a warning on this thread, Garrus thread is so awesome!!

I'm not saying all the characters need to be strong off the bat.  I don't mind characters who need help.  Most NPCs do.  Like Liara.  Or Garrus in ME1.  They needed support and direction, which I was happy to provide.  Friends do that--they stick up for each other and help one another.  Help ONE ANOTHER--that's the key.  The relationship needs to feel reciprocal, otherwise it feels like the NPC using my character like a crutch without giving anything back.  My companions need to try on their own.  They need to grow.  

Liara saves your life, and a lot more besides.  Garrus is 100% your most loyal, steadfast friend.  Earning the respect of DA:O's Sten feels like freaking winning the lottery.  That's cool.  I like that.

What I don't like are emotional vampires, characters who drain and drain without giving back.  Aribeth was the worst offender, so I'll pick on her.  She's CRAZY.  It's not her fault, but she's clearly fracturing piece by piece in NWN.  And it's impossible to even come close to fixing her without therapy romancing her, an exceptionally disturbing task given how her fiance was just executed for treason   The whole thing is about putting her back together, and she STILL goes off the deep end.  It's like an emotional black hole.  Aribeth is extreme, but generally speaking, if I'm not getting back from a character as much as I put into helping them, I am an unhappy camper.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 09 décembre 2010 - 09:57 .

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

I was really unhappy with the conversation with Aribeth when it came to her *spoiler* betrayal. Because I just wanted to scream to her 'What would your goody two shoes dead fiancee think about all this?! This isn't honouring his memory, or showing any love for him at all!'

*end rant

Shepard was a teacher to Garrus as opposed to a therapist in ME1. He is strong enough to stand on his own two feet (Talons?)

I do appreciate strong characters in a game. When it comes to battle, I don't have patience for those who die right away. But you're right, it is always really rewarding when you see development in a character because of Shepard's influence. And that happens bang on with Garrus and Tali especially, and Liara too. But not Kaidan/Ashley... Ah well, maybe some DLC will rectify that?

[Kim Shepard]

Sialater wrote...

If Shepard were a total Mary/Marty Sue/Stu, the Coucil wouldn't be air-quoting him/her.  They'd ask how many ships and how fast does s/he need them.

Not that my Shepards would mind. xD It is fun to annoy the Council sometimes, and I like working with TIM, but I was pretty angry with that turian councillor on my first playthrough. Of course, it wasn't as bad because his air-quotes are hilarious, but I still wanted Shepard to say, "I just saved your lives!"

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Hmm.  Yeah, I have a feeling your favorite JE character (who also happens to be a fan favorite in general for his awesomitude) is going to get the axe.  But that's just my speculation on who you'll like.  Again, I repeat, DON'T SPOIL IT.  It'll be pretty obvious what you can and cannot change during the gameplay, so hopefully you won't end up trying to reload it.

Well, that's unfortunate. ): But expected. I won't spoil that one. I'm spoiling all of the other games (KOTOR, BG, NWN) to make up for it though.

NPCs, I will happily be your friend or even lover.  I will snipe, spill drinks on the Citadel, snark, eat cheese, sing songs, hunt devils, and consult space hamsters with you.  I will support and enable your growth as a person to the best of my ability.  Because that's what friends do.

NPCs get some great friends. And so do the PCs, even though their friends normally don't care about their problems. Only true friends would believe you when you say that an ancient race of sentient machines are coming from dark space to build a giant human terminator, and then go right along with you to fight them. Garrus is just awesome like that.

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

And I really respect characters who have had a rough time, but they still cope with it and rise above it. Like Garrus.

They're the most interesting, in my opinion. Everything they've lived through, how they managed to survive it, and who they became because of it can make really awesome characters. We saw it happen with Garrus. That's also why I want to know so much about Saren's past.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

I was really unhappy with the conversation with Aribeth when it came to her *spoiler* betrayal. Because I just wanted to scream to her 'What would your goody two shoes dead fiancee think about all this?! This isn't honouring his memory, or showing any love for him at all!'
*end rant
Shepard was a teacher to Garrus as opposed to a therapist in ME1. He is strong enough to stand on his own two feet (Talons?)
I do appreciate strong characters in a game. When it comes to battle, I don't have patience for those who die right away. But you're right, it is always really rewarding when you see development in a character because of Shepard's influence. And that happens bang on with Garrus and Tali especially, and Liara too. But not Kaidan/Ashley... Ah well, maybe some DLC will rectify that?

Yeah, I hated Aribeth.  And killed her at the first opportunity.  And AGAIN in Hordes of the Underdark.  Vindictive?  Me?  NEVAR.

Again, reciprocity, reciprocity, reciprocity.  It is why I find characters like Garrus, Alistair, Sten, Miranda, Sagacious Zu, and Keldorn appealing, and characters like Aribeth, Aerie, Anomen, and Bastila insufferable.

Kim Shepard wrote...
They're the most interesting, in my opinion. Everything they've lived through, how they managed to survive it, and who they became because of it can make really awesome characters. We saw it happen with Garrus. That's also why I want to know so much about Saren's past.

This is what gets me as a gamer to respect NPCs.  Not just like them, but respect them, which is a much harder thing to earn.  For example, I liked Morrigan.  I did not respect her.  She was kind of a brat.  I liked Liara in ME1, but I can't say I respected her either.  But I respected Wrex from the get-go, and Garrus and Liara won my respect 100% in ME2.  

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 09 décembre 2010 - 10:54 .

[Kim Shepard]

I normally don't like characters if I don't respect them. And it works the other way around too, that I normally don't respect characters if I don't like them. I guess the turian councillor could be an exception to that, because I like him... but he's more like comic relief to me, especially in my latest MaleShep's playthrough. (They annoy each other constantly. xD) Garrus and Saren have earned both, of course.

[Sable Rhapsody]

 

Say it with me: D'AWWWWWWW   Also, is anyone else tempted to tickle Garrus's little turian feet?

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 09 décembre 2010 - 11:53 .

[Xalena]

Can't wait for saturday/sunday to see what bioware is going to reveal. I heard some rumors about that they will reveal ME3+multiplayer:blink: ... well... I hope...I CAN MAKE TURIAN in multiplayer! Or play as Garrus and headshot players around hehe... actually I am very afraid I smell dissapointment... I hope they won't cut off alot of story because of that multiplayer that means less Garrus, less everything!
I am sorry I interrupt with this, shouldn't belong here maybe but ... I am abit upset and this article how EA guy saying how era of singleplayers games is over.
I am afraid that ME3 will be ruined and we won't get enough of Garrus again! I don't know argh! And this waiting is killing meeee! No really? Why they need to complicate? Why not to finish ME3, Shepard story ( and Garrus <3) in peace and then make multiplayer Mass Effects, MMO Mass Effects whatever they want after...

AND YES btw I hated Aribeth aswell and her fiance was a pusseh...
Hehehehe

/end rant.... doh how I love to rant ....... I will looower my expectations soo much about Me3 now :/ and who knows..maybe we will need to wait till 2012 for it? Ghhh...
ah yes Garrus... everything for Garrus...
but still...

Modifié par Xalena, 09 décembre 2010 - 11:57 .

[Cra5y Pineapple]

Aeowyn wrote...
Survive a rocket from a gunship without any injuries because his protective unicorn flew in from above and threw a rainbow shield over him = Mary Sue (or the imagination of someone who is probably smoking something)

I support Garrus's rainbow-farting Protection Unicorn for  Squadmate/LI in ME3.

And it's pretty obvious Garrus isn't a Gary Stu considering a few of his supposed flaws such as his tendency for revenge, his clear blood-thirsty "Jack Bauer" methods, him nearly dying and becoming permenantly scarred via ROF (Rocket-to-face) missile.
Although the whole blood thirsty Jack Bauer side is kinda part of what I like about him being renegon n' all. As i've said many times, Garrus's personality and morals relate heavily to my own.

Modifié par Cra5y Pineapple, 10 décembre 2010 - 12:04 .

[IndelibleJester]

I like every single Bioware character.

Except Jan Jansen. I have never had him in my party. But I wouldn't say I dislike him.

Is that strange?

I like all the characters in ME1&2, NWN&SOU&HOTU, BG1&2... I haven't played the others yet.

Out of all Bioware characters, Garrus is in the top 5, around Minsc, Edwin, Valen, and Deekin.