29107 réponses à ce sujet

[Collider]

Part of the fear is that he'd end up like the VS, or how Liara was before her DLC. A cameo, with while some important relevance to the story, with quite minimal character interaction.

[Pacifien]

Which is why I ask if people consider the sacrifice of a good story for love of a character. Don't overcompensate for fear.

[lovgreno]

Collider wrote...

Part of the fear is that he'd end up like the VS, or how Liara was before her DLC. A cameo, with while some important relevance to the story, with quite minimal character interaction.

A cameo is not quite the same as having your favourite along on the missions. I don't expect much about a game not even made yet but for me Garrus is one of the favourite parts of ME so I would be less motivated to buy a game without Garrus in my squad.

[Lovestories]

Pacifien wrote...

Which is why I ask if people consider the sacrifice of a good story for love of a character. Don't overcompensate for fear.

Think I'm in agreement with you Pacifen.

I love Garrus while it would be (very) upsetting I could handle him not being in ME3 as a squaddie so long as the role he was given makes sense to the character and the story.

At this point I'm not even sure I still want to see Garrus just running around with Shepard. I really want to see him in more of a leadership role, or more opportunities like what happens with the suicide mission.

Theres also that none of the LIs can die or not be in it because it's not fair la la. TBH I have no problem with my LI dying if Bioware made it so that particular person had to die as it adds to the story. Should all LIs really have a completely happy ending? ALL? is that realistic? I dunno
Same with favourite characters, does it mean they should get a superhero ending, just because "I love" them a tragic ending might just be more fitting or make more sense depending on what's going on in the story. 

Aww I just can't wait to see.

Modifié par Lovestories, 30 décembre 2010 - 04:34 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Pacifien wrote...

Which is why I ask if people consider the sacrifice of a good story for love of a character. Don't overcompensate for fear.

See, for me, it's always a balance between story, player agency, and the love of a character.  And I'd prioritize it in that order.  Story first first first, closely followed by player agency in a BioWare style WRPG.   

To address Xalena's thing with Alistair and bring it into the discussion, I thought DA:O's ending did a pretty bang-up job of balancing the three in general.  The story introduced the element of potential grand tragedy, the player's decisions pretty much dictated how much of a clusterf*** the thing became, and with the advent of Witch Hunt, there were ways to get happier endings with the characters we loved.  Sure the ending wasn't ideal, but with a game like DA:O, a super-happy ending would've felt like mood whiplash.

The hooplah surrounding Awakening had, IMO, partially to do with the game's bugginess, and partially to do with the game's lack of the latter two elements regarding party members: player agency and including beloved characters.  Every LI got Put On A Bus--and FYI, Zev and Lel's letters were cut content--regardless of what the player had done in the previous game, and those were much-beloved characters.  But if you were willing to look past the forum wankery on that element, Awakening had some wonderful new characters and an interesting story.

TL; DR version: Story story story, THEN player agency, THEN favorite characters.  I do love Garrus to little bits, but let's not blow things out of proportion.  Garrus is no more the be-all-end-all of Mass Effect than Morrigan is for Dragon Age.  Mass Effect is a space opera story, and that's the most important element for ME3.

[Alienmorph]

Pacifien wrote...

Which is why I ask if people consider the sacrifice of a good story for love of a character. Don't overcompensate for fear.

That's a good point. I didn't feel bad for not having back Wrex, 'cause his nu role as Krogan Leader is perfect for the character, was foreshadowed in ME1 and promises to have some consequences in ME3 too. But ... Garrus? There's just a foreshadow about the fact that he can be a good standalone leader... but other than that? Probably I'd be disappointed even more for him than for don't having Tali back, at least she has some potentially solid reasons to go away, besides everything I can hope or not. I don't see anything similar for Garrus...

[Lovestories]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Evelinessa wrote...

I'm hoping that none of that happens with Garrus in ME3, especially if we can't control it. I would be heartbroken if he did cheat or if he sacrificed himself for me, or dumping me because of the whole interspecies thing. I don't see Garrus ever betraying Shep though. I'm hoping that they give all the LIs a good ending. I would be a little angry with BioWare and then I wouldn't think too highly of the romance anymore. Do you really think they might give better endings to the ME1 LI's?

No.  I firmly believe the speculation about discrepencies between the LIs come ME3 is largely a result of a) paranoia and forum wankery.  I don't think Ash or Kaidan acted particularly out of character on Horizon (seriously, how well would YOU take it if the person you loved turned up after two years dead, working with the people you believe to be the enemy), and I think the actions of the ME1 LIs were understandable if not necessarily excusable in the context of ME2.  

The purpose of Horizon was to create a situation that could justify either staying with Ash/Kaidan OR moving on.  Same thing applies to the situation with Liara pre-LoTSB.  I don't think BioWare is out to "get" anyone, and if they are pulling out all the stops for ME3, we'll all be just fine regardless of who we romanced.

Not the right thread, but I completely agree with this.
People go on about the VS like they were shadowing Shepard up until horizon and should have known why/how she was back and what she was doing and why she was doing it. Completely agreeing because Shepard is ALWAYS right. Its like some people ignored half their dialogue teamed with Shepard's badly written responses.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Lovestories wrote...
Not the right thread, but I completely agree with this.
People go on about the VS like they were shadowing Shepard up until horizon and should have known why/how she was back and what she was doing and why she was doing it. Completely agreeing because Shepard is ALWAYS right. Its like some people ignored half their dialogue teamed with Shepard's badly written responses.

I have never believed that giving the ME1 characters good endings in ME3 is mutually exclusive to giving the ME2 characters good endings.  (And by good I mean satisfying, not necessarily sparkly bunnies and rainbows.)  I happen to want Ash back on my crew in ME3, and I want her and my Shep to patch things up.  

Meh.  It's just wankery.  And shirtless Garrus fixes all with his sexy sexy powers.



Hawt DAMN I love that picture.

[Aeowyn]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Lovestories wrote...
Not the right thread, but I completely agree with this.
People go on about the VS like they were shadowing Shepard up until horizon and should have known why/how she was back and what she was doing and why she was doing it. Completely agreeing because Shepard is ALWAYS right. Its like some people ignored half their dialogue teamed with Shepard's badly written responses.

I have never believed that giving the ME1 characters good endings in ME3 is mutually exclusive to giving the ME2 characters good endings.  (And by good I mean satisfying, not necessarily sparkly bunnies and rainbows.)  I happen to want Ash back on my crew in ME3, and I want her and my Shep to patch things up.  

Meh.  It's just wankery.  And shirtless Garrus fixes all with his sexy sexy powers.



Hawt DAMN I love that picture.

I agree with you Sable, but I hate it when fans whose LI's got the short end of the stick in ME2 bash on us who got our LI in the end.

And hot damn, that picture is hawt

[Brass_Buckles]

Aeowyn wrote...

In regards to Yuki's post, anyone feel that Garrus gets crap because he was in the second game as a squad member when other LI's weren't?

Actually, to some degree, yes, I do feel that way.  It seems as if the people who hate him most are the ones who like Liara best.  It may just be a personality thing.  In that most recent "most/least favorite squad member" thread, I pointed out that in general, certain groups of people have certain groups of characters they like and dislike.  People who like Liara most often seem to like Miranda too.  People who like Garrus most often like Thane and Mordin better than they like Jacob or Miranda.  Gender of the player does not seem, as far as I can tell, to be a factor in this in a major way, although generally guys who like Garrus will have one or two women they like best (Miranda and sometimes Jack).  I'm thinking, though, that it is probably more a personality and personal preferences issue than it is a "my character got screwed so I want yours to be too."

Pacifien wrote...

Actually, I entirely agree that a character whose path diverges from
Shepard doesn't mean the end of any friendship or romance they may have,
but there's always that sense of doom if I were to suggest that a
character is going to participate in the story from a support role.
Which is actually not a suggestion I'm putting forth for Garrus at this
time. My concern with Garrus is that his writing take a turn where he is
a love interest first and ally second, but that is something I put in
the BioWare writers' hands.

I adore Garrus.  I think his character is awesome.  His romance is awesome even though it's painfully awkward.  And while I may have a Shepard or two who are selfish enough to deny him great things in the future if it's an option, just to keep him by their sides, my more paragon Shepards will let him go if it looks as if that's better for him.  But I don't really think Bioware will allow his romance to trump his story.

That said, I also don't see him parting ways until the end of ME3, unless some DLC in between results in that separation.  Right now, he doesn't have the kind of status in society to go rejoin the turians.  He'll have to do something to earn that right.  The Hierarchy is a meritocracy, and Garrus has been running around being a bad little turian.  So my theory is that (assuming you let him live) he'll be in your squad in ME3, up until the end when he'll probably be leading part of your army, or you can elect to put him in charge of leading half/part while you lead the other part.  By the end of the game, should he survive, he'll be a hero and be able to take some better position in turian society, make more friends, and generally feel better about himself.  If he dies, he'll die a hero, and while that may be horribly sad for any Shepard who's made good friends with him or romanced him, it's actually a good ending for him, to die doing something he knows is right.

While a cameo worked really well for Wrex, it was because Wrex had the means and standing to go and work for his position and ultimately toward his goal of changing krogan society for the better.  Garrus does not.  Again, he has to earn it--of course if we have two years between games timeline-wise again, that may be possible off-camera.  I don't know.  But in general, it seems to me that Garrus's work will have to be on-camera.

I also don't think that Garrus making something of himself will necessarily deny his ability to be a romantic interest.  What kind of selfish jerk would you be to, for instance, stop him becoming a Spectre (which I think is, paragon or renegade, the best ending for him as a character)?  Or if he gets a high-ranking turian military position in the end?  Yes, it means he probably won't always be by Shepard's side, but really, isn't it a better outcome for Garrus?  Point being I don't think any ending really requires that they split up, but if your Shep can't stand to let him go and become who he needs to go by the end, then she's not that great of a friend or lover.

Kind of like with Dragon Age... I played different endings with Alistair romanced, and while I hated that he might break up with my Warden or die for her sake, I got over it and said, "Well it's just a story."  What I hated is they didn't let you mourn him if you had romanced him--I also hate this in ME2.  If your love interest dies, you're going to show a reaction no matter how hardened a soldier you are.  Of course I wasn't happy that he pulled the sexist, "I'll die for you because you're a girl and I like you" crap, but really that's just Alistair for you.  Even if you're just friends with him, he still earns relationship points faster if you're a woman (and vice versa for Morrigan and men)!  So yeah, I think even if something terrible happens with Garrus, even if he breaks up with your Shepard, I'll be okay with it in the end.  Actually I can see Garrus having extreme reactions to things more than Alistair.  Garrus is not a mild sort of guy.  He's very intense at just about everything.  But unlike Alistair, even if he's forced to part ways with Shepard for months at a time, I think he'd still be eager to make it work without you making him more renegade through ME1 and ME2.

Addai67 wrote...

I could see Garrus feeling some duty of his is more important than
personal affairs, too.  He and Shepard both, really.  If the galaxy
needs them to be apart, they'd do what they had to do.  Other than that,
I guess it's in how you play your Shepard.  Since the suicide mission
date is basically a hookup, it doesn't need to be construed as more.

I think whether or not it's just a hookup is up to your perspective, and your Shepard's.  Personally, I don't see it that way, and definitely not on Garrus's part.  Try cheating on someone else with Garrus, and choose Garrus.  He wouldn't be so glad and flattered, or talk about love triangles, if he didn't feel something more than friendly with Shepard.  As the romance progresses, he gets more eager to see it through.  He tells Shepard he wants "a few moments that are just for us."  That sounds like more than friends to me, even though he seems to be trying to say it in a casual/less noticeable way.  Maybe because he doesn't think Shepard feels the same way (and he may be right, depending on the player).  If you break up with him, you have to tell him you just want to be friends, nothing more.  That implies you're more-than-friends with him.  In the last scene, he's going out of his way to make it more date-like (however awkwardly), maybe because he wants to make Shepard more comfortable.  Then in those last moments he tells you he wants something to go right.  This thing with Shepard is as important to him as C-Sec and Sidonis.  To my mind, that's as good as telling Shep he's falling in love with her.  He probably hasn't quite yet, but he's getting there.  And I reiterate my point that I've made before, that getting sex right on one occasion probably wouldn't mean that much to him.  But in the context of a relationship, taking a huge risk even trying this because he wants to know that they can be together as more than friends, what he says makes more sense.  And of course, sending him away makes him sad-faced and disappointed.  You can argue it doesn't mean that much to Garrus, but I don't buy it.  As for Shepard... again, it depends on the Shepard and the player.  Some Shepards would have high-risk sex (you could die doing this, you know...) with Garrus without caring.  Some wouldn't.  And some wouldn't entertain even the idea of it and would probably wince at his story about the recon scout.

But as far as Garrus goes, I'm not as crazy about him as some other people on the board.  He's a fictional character and even though I greatly enjoy that character (I like him more than most of the rest of the cast), if something happens to him that I don't like, it's not the end of the world.  And there's always fanfic if it bugs me that much.

Edited to add to my massive wall of text:

As for Garrus/romance trumping the story... It's Shepard's story, not Garrus's.  What you do and say across all three games will have some bearing on what happens to Shepard in the end.  It could mean losing your love interest.  It could mean sunshine, rainbows, and bunnies. It could mean (and almost certainly will in some cases) that Shepard dies and romance is entirely moot anyway.  I don't want or expect a perfect happy ending, and some things the devs have said make me feel that although we may defeat the Reapers, there's Something Else that will threaten the galaxy when Shepard's story is over.  But yes, I'm shallow enough to still want closure in the romance subplot, even if it means seeing my chosen LI mourn over Shepard's coffin.

Edited again to add:

And hey.  After Shepard's story, maybe they'll pull a DA:O type thing, and the next game lets us choose species, gender, and origin.  (Female turian biotic anyone?)

Modifié par Brass_Buckles, 30 décembre 2010 - 06:06 .

[Addai]

Brass_Buckles wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I could see Garrus feeling some duty of his is more important than
personal affairs, too.  He and Shepard both, really.  If the galaxy
needs them to be apart, they'd do what they had to do.  Other than that,
I guess it's in how you play your Shepard.  Since the suicide mission
date is basically a hookup, it doesn't need to be construed as more.

I think whether or not it's just a hookup is up to your perspective, and your Shepard's.  Personally, I don't see it that way, and definitely not on Garrus's part.

You're preaching to the choir here.    I'm too much of a sap not to see it as romantic.  This is more realistic with Garrus than with squaddies Shepard just met, which is one of the reasons I like the match-up.  But, the game does make it sound like it could just be a hook-up if people want to rp it that way.  That's all I meant.

And hey.  After Shepard's story, maybe they'll pull a DA:O type thing, and the next game lets us choose species, gender, and origin.  (Female turian biotic anyone?)

If they had started out that way, I'd definitely want to play a Turian or Krogan.  As it is, I'd rather play out the story line with my boring Shepard, otherwise it doesn't feel unified.

Modifié par Addai67, 30 décembre 2010 - 06:25 .

[Sialater]

I think she means after ME3.

[Brass_Buckles]

Sialater wrote...

I think she means after ME3.

This.

They have said some things about continuing the franchise.

[EffectedByTheMasses]

So I was told by my girlfriend today that I have very supportive hips, apparently. The first thing I thought of in reaction to that statement was Garrus.



Good day all.

[magelet]

EffectedByTheMasses wrote...

So I was told by my girlfriend today that I have very supportive hips, apparently. The first thing I thought of in reaction to that statement was Garrus.

Good day all.

That is adorable.

[Kim Shepard]

Wow, I missed a lot. o_o I'm not reading all of that, but here's a giant catch-up post for the most important stuff.

Aeowyn wrote...

Pepper4 wrote...

http://kotaku.com/57...ot-way-too-cute

Haha I bet Kim will absolutely love the Saren plushie.

I've seen that plushie. It's adorable. I'm going to make my own. (Already got the stuff to make him, but right now, it's in a pile of Saren-colored material.)

In response to Brass_Buckle's questions, I can't imagine a way that Garrus would cheat or break up with Shepard that's in-character for him. It just wouldn't (or shouldn't) happen. I can see him trying to sacrifice himself for Shepard though. That seems completely in-character, but if there's an option to avoid it, my Shepards will take that option even if it means Paragon interrupt hitting him with his own sniper rifle. Even EvilShep would say "No, you're too valuable. I'll sacrifice that person instead." if it was an actual dialogue choice. As for leaving Shepard because Shepard doesn't let him have revenge or something equally important... Garrus already trusted Shepard enough to let Sidonis go if you chose the Paragon path. He trusts Shepard, and will even romance a Shepard who did this, so obviously no hard feelings. It would have to be something really big to have that sort of effect on Garrus, and even then, I doubt it would happen. I have many Shepards who would kill anyone who gets in the way of their revenge, or hold a grudge forever against the person who stopped them, but Garrus isn't like that.

Also, this:

Brass_Buckles wrote...

And hey.  After Shepard's story, maybe they'll pull a DA:O type thing, and the next game lets us choose species, gender, and origin.  (Female turian biotic anyone?)

This is something I definitely want to see at some point after Shepard's story.

Pacifien wrote...

You ever think you sacrifice a good story for love of the character?

I mean, I can understand a nice ending for your favorite character, but that doesn't necessarily translate into a good story. Satisfying maybe, but someone looking upon the story from a general perspective might feel it was cheap.

Of course, most people play games for that satisfying feeling, I imagine. Fanfic probably thrives on it.

To me, both the story and the characters are important. Of course I always want a nice ending for my favorites, but at this point I'm used to most of them getting killed off. Whatever happens, it needs to make sense. Saren dies no matter what, but the Paragon persuade made me like his character even more. The whole thing was done very well - those conversations were the best I've ever seen in a game, it made sense for his character, and it made sense for the story. It's sad when a favorite dies, but I've seen a lot of character deaths that were annoying because they didn't make any sense, weren't possible, etc.

I want Garrus to live, but it's not like I would refuse to buy the game if he doesn't live in the end or isn't a squadmate because I'd still want to play out the rest of Shepard's story. Garrus' death would be sad, but just like with Saren, he's a great character and I'd still enjoy playing the games because every time you start over, he's alive again. It would annoy me if Shepard dies no matter what though. I'd never play past that part in the game.

I don't know, I used to like Garrus quite a bit, but he's not the story. Not to me. It's difficult to read through a thread where he is deemed critical to the story to the point of central focus. Well, the solution would be not to read the thread, but that takes away from the fact that I do like Garrus. I wouldn't mind discussing him. But I would discuss him as one would Wrex or Mordin. No one treats them as critical to have by Shepard's side, simply for them to be Shepard's allies. I feel this is just as true with Garrus.

Obviously, I don't speak for everyone here, but I've never said that Garrus is necessary to the story. He can be necessary for some people's enjoyment of the story, but technically, ME1 can be played without him and ME2 ca be finished without him. He can't be required to move the story forward in ME3 because of this, but he can still make a big impact on the story and be an important character. That's the way I see it for all of the squadmates except Liara, who is the only one that's really "required" (not counting Kaidan and Ashley here because each one can fill the others role, so a Virmire survivor is required, but not either of them as individuals).

His character arc makes the most sense to me if it breaks free from Shepard's command truly, a leader in his own right. But how do you give that impression while still maintaining a romance for those who want it? The solution would be two very different character paths, I imagine.

Really? I think it would make the least sense for Garrus to leave Shepard, who is basically all he has left, romance or not. It could still be done well, and from what I've read of LotSB, it was a good mission with romance conversations and plans for the future at the end for those who romanced Liara, so the romance with someone who's not a squadmate (or only a temporary squadmate) can work. As long as it's done well, I wouldn't be too bothered by it. I'd miss Garrus as a squadmate, but if they keep him in character and give him a Wrex-worthy part in the story, fine. Wrex was my second-favorite squadmate in ME1, I brought him and Garrus everywhere, and I really liked his cameo. I hope for Wrex leading a krogan army in ME3 much more than I hope for him to be a squadmate.

Or imagine writing the villains of a story, but you fall so in love with writing these characters, you don't want to see their ends. Even if the story demands it.

Like Saren? I think the Evolution comic is a brilliant solution to that. "Okay, he had to die in ME1 because the story demands it, but he was still alive during the First Contact War, so... prequel time!"

Speaking of Evolution and Saren and the First Contact War, BioWare has an announcement for the five-page preview here. Re-posting everything related to Saren that I wrote in the TIM thread:

The turian that TIM captured for interrogation must be Saren or his brother. None of the other turians have fringe like that. It might be Saren because of the glowing blue eyes. There's a turian on page 3 who looks like him too, but with glowing red eyes and brown skin (Saren's is more gray), who could be his brother. I thought the color difference might have just been the lighting, but when I had a closer look, they're wearing different armor.

Now I'm thinking TIM captures Saren, Saren's brother attacks TIM, TIM kills Saren's brother, and Saren's hate for humanity starts. Or I could be wrong because all of that is based on five pages.

[Aeowyn]

Hm, Saren was 18 during the First Contact War so it could be him. The turian in the comic looks a bit older though, so I'm guessing it's his brother.

What I'm curious of however is:

1. How the hell do they know that the species attacking them is called turians?

2. How do they understand each other?

[Kim Shepard]

It's really hard to tell the age of turians. Saren looked just as old on the cover of Revelation as he did in ME1, 22 years later. One theory I've read here is that those cracks on a turian's face that gives them an aged appearance can be caused by stress or be worn down by years of battle. Not saying that it can't be Saren's brother instead of him, but there is that other turian on page 3 who looks a lot like Saren/his brother, but is not the same person as the captured turian (and is most likely not Saren, judging by the color differences).

Saren or his brother, that guy is awesome. He's just been captured by humans, but still manages to grin and make sarcastic remarks about their intelligence. xD If it isn't Saren, personality must run in the family too. Just like fringe.

To answer your questions, TIM did find a translator on the last page. I have no idea how they work though, so that's all I can say about it. And I can only guess that someone from the Alliance might have referred to them as turians for TIM and the others to know. (Also, "skullfaces" was hilarious. Much better and more fearsome than "cuttlebone.")

[Sable Rhapsody]

Brass_Buckles wrote...

Sialater wrote...

I think she means after ME3.

This.

They have said some things about continuing the franchise.

I could go for a more open-ended RPG set in the ME-universe.  One of the things I loved about the ME FB RP before it got nuts was the ability to make any kind of character in the universe.  That would be oodles of fun, though I'd have to make a character as drastically different from my Shep as possible.  I'm so used to playing her 

Hmm...maudlin drunk Volus explosives expert.  There 

[Alienmorph]

Brass_Buckles wrote...

Sialater wrote...

I think she means after ME3.

This.

They have said some things about continuing the franchise.

With the end of the main storyline can happen anything. There may be an ME4 that starst a new story, but where you import you Shep' making him/her the mentor of your new character, or maybe some spin-off centered around the single characters... or am I the only one who would love to play a game with the adventures of Garrus between ME1 and 2?

Modifié par Alienmorph, 30 décembre 2010 - 10:15 .

[Kim Shepard]

I have a character all ready for "Mass Effect: Origins" if it ever happens. He's a turian biotic, and he's awesome. > Sable's drunken volus using explosives sounds hilarious though.

I don't think Shepard will even be seen in any other Mass Effect games, but I think there's a good chance Shepard's decisions that effect the galaxy will be imported to future games. As for an Archangel game, I'd rather have a comic... I'd totally buy the game on day one though, if they decided to make a game. Besides a "Mass Effect: Origins" style of game, I want one set during the First Contact War. Half of the reason why I want this is for the possibility of my turian character talking to Saren.

[Aeowyn]

Volus biotic anyone?

[Kim Shepard]

Volus: I am a biotic god!
Calix (my biotic turian): *Renegade interrupt kicks the volus and watches him roll*  ...

Yeah, he's a crazy little guy who would find that hilarious. This is the sense of humor he gets, being the adopted son of MainShep and Saren, and the "grandson" of my Earthborn Ruthless.

[Alienmorph]

Kim Shepard wrote...
I don't think Shepard will even be seen in any other Mass Effect games, but I think there's a good chance Shepard's decisions that effect the galaxy will be imported to future games. .

You're right, off course. Probably in an ipothetic ME4 will be simply able to choose the initial background of the story, like in the actual trilogy we choose Shepard's... so something like:

Ultimate Victory - Galaxy safe and earth, Shepard retired with his/her LI (eventually choice of that too).
Ultimate Sacrifice - Galaxy safe, but earth destroyed, Shepard KIA.
Rise from the Ashes - Galaxy devastated but safe, Shepard heroically died to stop Reapers.

I was just drifting a bit with my imagination ... but having a last cameo of Shep in ME4 would be so nice, besides it's so unlikely to happen. But we're going too far, for now.