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[Alienmorph]

Off course... he seems so lonely :3

[Shiny Something]

So many posts... Been trying to avoid the forums so i dont get any accidental DA spoilers before friday.
Also Garrus looks adorable sitting on the steps in Tali's loyalty misson. :3

[Kim Shepard]

I much prefer the ME2 romance scenes to those in ME1 and DAO. They're a lot more personalized than those in ME1 and a lot less awkward than those in DAO. I can't comment on DA2 because I haven't reached that point or watched them on youtube yet. Out of the scenes they've done so far, my favorites are the ones that show the least amount of skin. I just like the emotional end of the romance so much more, and that could partly be because I'm not playing myself as Shepard/Warden/Hawke, and if they romance a character I personally don't like, it could quickly get into "I really don't want to watch this" territory. The majority of ME2's romances (Garrus, Tali, Thane, Jack, Samara) focus more on the emotional than the physical in their final scene.

leonia42 wrote...

Unrelated comment: Does anyone else think that the "casual" outfit that Garrus wears is actually a Hierarchy military dress uniform of sorts? The bars seem to indicate rank and it sort of reminds me of what we see in the Evolution comic (ugh, I know, I shouldn't mention that artwork around here..). I wonder what citizenship tier he is on now that he's left the Citadel for good or if he has any more obligation to the Hierarchy. Maybe he just keeps the uniform out of sentimentality (heh like a certain templar we know in another game).

There are similarities between them, but I've seen too many different styles and colors of the turian uniforms in Evolution to know more than the obvious - it's a turian style. Most of the military uniforms shown in Evolution are half armor though, which might be where the difference comes in.

At least it's a little easier to judge because turians have similar military ranks to humans. They have a boot camp, Generals, and Lieutenants just like we do.

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

I don't get DA2 until Friday in England. And even then, I'm working Friday, so I don't get it until Saturday I am really looking forward to it though. I seems like they have improved on many of the aspects I didn't like about DA:O.
I too, loved the romance scenes in ME2. They were individual to each person, there were more diverse options, and Garrus was an LI.

However, magenator's sig informs me that Garrus was, in fact, an LI in ME1, but he rocked out worlds so hard that we don't remember

And Garrus with a cowboy hat! Reminds me of Ragabul, I haven't seen her on Clan V for a while now And she welcomed me there!

[Kim Shepard]

I hope ME3 takes a hint from DA2's icon dialogue system. There are hearts for flirty options, and as I discovered yesterday, broken hearts for the not interested/end romance options. I'll actually be able to talk to these people without fear of a romance trap! Thank you, BioWare. (And I'm glad this was never a problem with Garrus. I respect characters who don't have romance traps so much more.)

Yeah, I miss Raga too. We had a really long conversation about Saren once, which was named Sarenfest. xD

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

Kim, your hatred of romance traps almost outweighs your love for Saren
My reach and flexibility T-shirt still hasn't arrived

Yeah, I remember chatting with Raga about Baldurs Gate for AGES when I first joined Clan V. I love fellow BG fans.
Speaking of which, anyone else see that Kivan and Garrus are pretty similar? They both have little use for laws, want to exact justice on those who deserve it. And are both very vengeful individuals.

Possibly why Kivan was my favourite in BG.

Edit: Missed this before

Shiny Something wrote...
Also Garrus looks adorable sitting on the steps in Tali's loyalty misson. :3

Glad you like! I love this avatar! Hehe

Modifié par Tasha vas Nar Rayya, 09 mars 2011 - 10:12 .

[Kim Shepard]

The love for Saren definitely overpowers the hate for romance traps. I would be much more annoyed at having to repeat ME1 if it wasn't for the fact that it means more Saren. xD

I have Baldur's Gate, but I haven't played it yet. Not much time, BioWare keeps coming out with new games (and other stuff too, seems like I've been buying something they made every few weeks recently with Evolution and DA2), and I'm not completely sure if it'll work on my PC. Sounds like Kivan will be a favorite of mine though, if he's vengeful and similar to Garrus.

[kglaser]

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...
And Garrus with a cowboy hat! Reminds me of Ragabul, I haven't seen her on Clan V for a while now And she welcomed me there!

Yeah, she's something else.
She's taking a break from BSN in general, I guessed to avoid DA2 spoilers (although I could be wrong), but no one else could have convinced me that a turian in a cowboy hat could work.  But she makes it work. XD

[Leonia]

Heh, I think Kim's love for Saren is quite infectious, I find myself getting excited about Evolution for the chance to see more of him (when is the next issue coming out?). He's a pretty awesome character, not just as a villain but as a tragic hero of sorts as well. I hope, if Saren doesn't make a come-back of some fashion in ME3, that we will find something useful because of Saren that will help us stop the Reapers and/or TIM. Maybe he left some notes behind some where? There's gotta be something important about the fact that only Saren and Shepard could access the beacons, Vigil and Liara pretty much said that no mind should have been able to handle the beacon information but those two managed it.

I do see a similiarity with Kivan, now that you mention it. Pretty much any vengeful but somewhat compassionate character reminds me of Garrus. Been watching a lot of Angel lately (we've had the DVDs for ages and finally got around to it) and I can't help pointing out similarities between Angel and Garrus (aside from the obvious Archangel nickname). There should be a club for compassionate renegades some where.

[kglaser]

I really, really love the Saren described in the first ME novel. Such a perfect villain, I had never encountered until I read that.
Wow, just...WOW. Evil? Check! ;D

[Leonia]

kglaser wrote...

I really, really love the Saren described in the first ME novel. Such a perfect villain, I had never encountered until I read that.
Wow, just...WOW. Evil? Check! ;D

Y'know.. I didn't think of him so much as a villain but more of a really, really practical and efficient kind of guy. He sort of reminds me of Duncan and the Grey Wardens.. willing to do anything to get the mission done, ends justify the means, etc. Granted, he does do a few things that are unnecessary but that just shows how badass he is.

Ruthless.. yes, that's the word I would use to describe Saren best. I think a renegade Shepard would get along with him quite fine, actually. You might not agree with his methods but you can't deny that the guy knows how to get results.

It's just tragic that he is such a loner, that he tried to stop the Reapers all on his own. Maybe that was overconfidence and ambition that got the better of him but.. it's sad isn't it, that he was basically trying to do the same thing as Shepard just without the whole crew of the Normandy and the friends that Shepard had.

He already knew the council wouldn't believe the Reaper threat seriously, long before Shepard tried to make them believe. How much else did he know about the Reapers? He was so convinced that they couldn't be stopped. It kind of makes one worry about how we will actually fight the Reapers in ME3. I mean, if Saren, the biggest badass in the galaxy doesn't think they can be fought.. that's saying a lot.

Modifié par leonia42, 10 mars 2011 - 04:30 .

[kglaser]

Good points, leonia (although I can't identify with the DA stuff...haven't made it that far in the game (yet), lol.

But I maintain that he's one of the truly great villains I've ever encountered.

(SPOILER alert for first book!! you have been warned! la la la la la la!!!!)



That scene in the hospital, with the batarian girl...anyone who's read the book knows what I mean...that takes one cold SOB, in my estimation. To do what he did, and just stroll out of her room, and casually inform the doctors, basically, "she's all yours", after she'd already expired...cold. Very, very cold.

--I like.

[Leonia]

Oh certainly, Revelation had a lot of moments of "Did he just DO that", it really took me out of my comfort zone.. in a good way. Not everyone is a good-natured hero that saves and protects the innocent. I always thought of Saren as Lawful Evil more than say Chaotic Evil like most villains tend to be.

[kglaser]

I was certainly sorry to see Saren reduced to an ash pile...if there was anyone of whom I'd have liked to see more from the MEverse, it would be him, or Nihlus.

[Obsydian]

i adored Nihlus, if i'm honest... he's our first real experience with a Turian... and i really liked him from the beginning, i woulda liked to have learned more about him, honestly. not sure why.

and i LOVE Saren. Not as much as Garrus, or as much as Kim does, apparently.. but yeah. I just actually started the second book... i'm slow, i know.
Saren kinda reminds me less of Duncan and more of Logain. ruthless but with purpose. he knows what he has to do. the difference is... Saren gets a perverse sort of pleasure out of harming beings.

[Kim Shepard]

The infectious Saren love is why I have the title of Sarendoctrinator. xD I talk about him a lot, and people start to like him. Evolution #3 comes out on March 23rd. Can't wait for more Saren!

I never thought to compare him with Duncan. They do have a "mission first" mindset, but I haven't found time to read the novels yet for more information. Duncan became a fast favorite of mine though, so I would be surprised if he has some Saren-like qualities.

I agree with most of what you guys said there (and my MainShep is also questioning how they can defeat the Reapers when Saren couldn't), but there are a few things I'd like to add.

kglaser wrote...

(SPOILER alert for first book!! you have been warned! la la la la la la!!!!)



That scene in the hospital, with the batarian girl...anyone who's read the book knows what I mean...that takes one cold SOB, in my estimation. To do what he did, and just stroll out of her room, and casually inform the doctors, basically, "she's all yours", after she'd already expired...cold. Very, very cold.

--I like.

Saren seems like the kind of guy who wouldn't think she has much of a life left after that, at least in my opinion. She was in really bad shape when Saren talked to her in the hospital - she couldn't see, couldn't walk, could barely hear him, and probably would never be able to afford the extensive cybernetics to fix any of that. So, even though she survived the attack, he probably figured that going on like that was pointless.

And his exact words were, "You were right. Jella was too weak. She didn't make it."

It's amazing how he was able to just block it all out (the sound and sight of her dying) and concentrate on his next move for the mission though. I guess I knew he was like that, but wow. It reminds me of the conversation when Anderson asked him how he could be so cold about killing innocent people (who would be shooting at them, as Saren pointed out) and Saren said, "Practice. Lots of practice." He learned not to let that sort of thing bother him.

Obsydian wrote...

and i LOVE Saren. Not as much as Garrus, or as much as Kim does, apparently..

Yes, I have the undisputed Saren love trophy here. xD I believe Raga was the one who came up with that too.

Saren kinda reminds me less of Duncan and more of Logain. ruthless but with purpose. he knows what he has to do. the difference is... Saren gets a perverse sort of pleasure out of harming beings.

After reading about what happens in one of the DA novels (I found it on the Wiki), I can see the similarity between Saren's and Loghain's past. Saren does enjoy killing and torturing guys like the batarian in Revelation, but keep in mind, Saren also said to him, "You disgust me. You wanted to torture an innocent victim for your own pleasure. You sick bastard." He was really against it, and the innocent victim was even a human. And that was when I knew I would never have to worry about Saren going over the line or doing something that would make me like him less.

[Obsydian]

Kim Shepard wrote...

*snip*


After reading about what happens in one of the DA novels (I found it on the Wiki), I can see the similarity between Saren's and Loghain's past. Saren does enjoy killing and torturing guys like the batarian in Revelation, but keep in mind, Saren also said to him, "You disgust me. You wanted to torture an innocent victim for your own pleasure. You sick bastard." He was really against it, and the innocent victim was even a human. And that was when I knew I would never have to worry about Saren going over the line or doing something that would make me like him less.

Yeah,  i did read the novels... they were actually, pretty good...    but yes. I can see this. I can agree with you on that last bit...  he's all about doing whats right, there is no grey area with him, its black or white. And thats not necessarily a bad thing, though i don't necessarily agree with it. I mean, with regards to Jella...   yes, her life was going to suck had she lived... i have no problem with him killing her... but .. to do so so very horrifically?  he coulda strangled her or stabbed her but he let her die in misery and pain. *shrug*  so it goes both ways. he's not a nice guy by any means, but he gets the job done, and he does it because of what he believes.  

Honestly, i think that is why he's a great character. He believes so damned hard, and is willing to do whatever is necessary for his beliefs. its impressive, and hard to come by. 

[Leonia]

You guys should definitely read The Calling, lots of Duncan-goodness in that novel plus it shows the "darker" side of the Grey Wardens. Lots of parallels between them and the Spectres, actually, except Spectres tend to work alone. Duncan is a lot more ruthless than the game implies.

The Loghain comparison is a good one as well, especially if you look at the events that led the characters to become as hardened as they are.

In a lot of ways, Saren sort of.. makes me think of what Garrus could have become if Shepard hadn't intervened in his life. I wonder if he realises that?

And also.. on the subject of Nihlus, I've been trying to rationalise why Saren killed him. Obviously if Nihlus found out about Sovereign and the geth he would have tried to stop Saren, as Shepard did or maybe.. he wouldn't because he would have hesitated to fight his mentor? I sort of like to think it was a "mercy killing" of sorts, because Nihlus might have hesitated where Shepard wouldn't have.. and at the time, Saren didn't really know about Shepard so he wasn't playing on his/her intervention later. I wonder if, in a roundabout way, Saren was trying to protect Nihlus by killing him earlier rather than later? Perhaps he didn't want Nihlus to see what he had become.

I mean, there had to be more to it than "This dude is in the way and I need his files", right?

Modifié par leonia42, 10 mars 2011 - 07:35 .

[Kim Shepard]

@Obsydian: Saren had to let her die, rather than kill her. I know the Council probably wouldn't care (they know his methods are questionable), but it would have looked bad on him if it was obvious that he killed her on purpose. A stab wound or strangle marks on her neck would have been obvious. This way, it seemed like she died while he was questioning her and that he tried to save her, which is why he used the injection that the doctor gave him after he knew she was already dead.

@leonia: I think Saren killed Nihlus because he thought Nihlus would try to stop what he thought was the only way to save the galaxy (which might not have been the case, since Nihlus trusted him so much), and he chose to do it by shooting him in the back of the head because Nihlus was still his friend and he didn't want him to know what was happening.

I'm not sure how he would have felt about letting Nihlus know what he became. The Reapers told him that he was the perfect combination of organic and synthetic with the strengths of both and weaknesses of neither, and he believed it. He had to keep it a secret though. And he was still paranoid. I'm more curious how he felt about the first cybernetics - the ones on his face, before he met Sovereign - and the geth arm. My theory is that they were kind of hard to deal with.

And I actually bought both DA books. Just haven't read them yet. xD They'll have to wait until I have time.

[Obsydian]

yeah Kim, thinking back on it.. i suppose you are right. *grumbles* I guess that was the best way to do it. heh, doesn't mean i have to like it, just means that he's got a shyteload more emotional strength than i have. its nearly 4 am... lol, i should be asleep, not really thinking right.

the DA books are really really good... a really nice insight into the backstory of the Grey Wardens and all.

[Kim Shepard]

Yeah, I'm not even sure if my MainShep, who loves and idolizes Saren, would have been able to do it, and she hates batarians (well, she hates the slavers most of all, but she's biased against batarians due to Mindoir - just like Saren is with humans, hates the Alliance but still wouldn't want an innocent woman be tortured). At least, my MainShep wouldn't be able to get her mind off it like Saren can. She would have a hard time watching it happen too, even though on some level, she would agree with it. And she does a lot of Renegade things too. She admires Saren's strength for being able to do it.

Of course, all of the difficulty with this situation would change if Saren was in the room. She could just look at him and forget anyone else was there, why she's there in the first place, what her mission was, and she wouldn't even care. xD

[Obsydian]

really... who doesn't hate batarians. bastards.

I definitly admire his strength. as i said... he believes hard. and he has more steel in him than any character save maybe one or two... there's something impressive about that.
she's totally in love with Saren, isn't she. lol, thats why she would forget these things.
there are definitly worse people to be in love with *coughs* jacob miranda... *coughs*

in all seriousness though... yeah, Saren's badass.

time to sleep. *thud*

[Aeowyn]

Personally, I hate that batarians are depicted as the "evil" race. I'd like to meet a normal, nice batarian for once. Maybe his name will be Bob, he'll work as a tax analyst from 9 to 5 and every evening he'll go home to his wife Mindy. They'll watch some Q factor before going to bed.

[Kim Shepard]

Yeah, I like all of that about Saren too. And MainShep really loves him. She would bug TIM constantly until he resurrects Saren too. Considering their past in Evolution, I'd like to see how that goes over.

@Aeowyn: There is one batarian who says not all humans are bad after you save his life. And Jella, the female batarian from Revelation, wasn't a bad person as far as I know. It's just that they have a slaver culture, which most of them tend to follow, so it's reasonable that they're the easy race to hate. I like having a species that my Shepards can hate, one that can give them a similar past to Saren's. >

[YamiSnuffles]

DA2 is making me fall behind and now I even have to dodge spoilers in here. D:

So, going waaay back, I'll add my two cents on the romance scenes. Although I don't think the build up was as good in ME2 as it was in ME1 and DA:O (and so far, DA2) I liked the actual final scenes the most. I literally laughed out loud when I saw the DA:O scene for the first time. All of the ME1 scenes, while done better than DAO, were pretty much the same. I really liked the personalization of ME2. Each scene felt right for the romance. I would still like a little more lovin' for Garrus but I don't want anything too explicit.

As for Saren in the novels... I won't even get into it because I don't want to argue with Kim. But I do respect him as a villain and was sad to see him go at the end of ME1.

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 10 mars 2011 - 12:38 .