Aller au contenu

Photo

Calibrations: Garrus Love and Turian Discussion

Débuté par Chimervera , juin 26 2010 03:45

  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
29107 réponses à ce sujet

#2451
Guest_Raga_*
Posté 14 juillet 2010 - 05:50

Guest_Raga_*
  • Guests

J4N3_M3 wrote...

I tried ignoring the Renegade interrupt on Mordin's loyalty mission just to see what would happen but it was impossible because the Weyrloc guy kept talking and talking and talking....was interesting to hear though and made Mordin gulp a lot xD In the end, I was just tired and interrupted *rofl*
I'm really going for ignoring them most of the time just to see what happens. Can't say it always works out but mostly it does. Garrus was all "whoa, everyone else would have killed that guy" when I didn't push the Merc off the tower. Whenever I kicked him off, Garrus said, it was a bit harsh.


Yea, I tried to ignore that one but the sheer amount of time it is on the screen is an interesting gimmick.  I think Bioware got a lot of paragon's to go renegade in that moment.  You have to be REALLY patient to ignore that one.

#2452
Collider
Posté 14 juillet 2010 - 05:51

Collider
  • Members
  • 17 165 messages
It's true. Paragon and Renegade in many cases cannot be properly defined. It can be all over the place. I think in hindsight "diplomatic" wasn't the right term. I suppose we could say that paragon is more "morally righteous"?

#2453
Goat_Shepard
Posté 14 juillet 2010 - 05:51

Goat_Shepard
  • Members
  • 11 117 messages
@Kim these games are crazy. You're obviously going to have a greater experience than me. I never played a game over and over doing nearly the same thing and never getting bored of it.

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...
Well, sometimes she figures that such people are just too dangerous to be left alive or she thinks someone else deserves avenging and that since she is the only person who can bring them to justice, she has an ethical responsibility to do so.  Since she is strong and knows she can take the guilt, she figures she should pull the trigger as the next person might not be able to cope with it so well.


I'm sorry, I meant "how can you not kill Sidonis?", it's not like an aside like the people you kill on Mordin's, Miranda's, or Jack's mission, it was the whole point of Garrus' mission. I can't begin to imagine Garrus' dialogue after you spare Sidonis :crying:

Well how about Garrus?  He makes a great model.


Posted Image

#2454
Kim Shepard
Posté 14 juillet 2010 - 05:54

Kim Shepard
  • Members
  • 3 257 messages
I don't remember all of the Paragon interrupts (There was one on Jacob's loyalty mission?), but at the moment I can't think of any that Renegade would take. He's not the type to give out hugs to the crew, and I don't know what the other options with the volus are like to say which would be best for him. Is knocking Niftu Cal unconscious a Paragon interrupt?

Wow, I really have a better memory of the Renegade interrupts. There are videos of all those on youtube, but not the Paragon. xD

#2455
Reptilian Rob
Posté 14 juillet 2010 - 05:56

Reptilian Rob
  • Members
  • 5 964 messages

Goat_Shepard wrote...

@Kim these games are crazy. You're obviously going to have a greater experience than me. I never played a game over and over doing nearly the same thing and never getting bored of it.

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...
Well, sometimes she figures that such people are just too dangerous to be left alive or she thinks someone else deserves avenging and that since she is the only person who can bring them to justice, she has an ethical responsibility to do so.  Since she is strong and knows she can take the guilt, she figures she should pull the trigger as the next person might not be able to cope with it so well.


I'm sorry, I meant "how can you not kill Sidonis?", it's not like an aside like the people you kill on Mordin's, Miranda's, or Jack's mission, it was the whole point of Garrus' mission. I can't begin to imagine Garrus' dialogue after you spare Sidonis :crying:

Well how about Garrus?  He makes a great model.


Posted Image

Hell yes I'd hang out with him and drink a few!

#2456
Aricle
Posté 14 juillet 2010 - 05:57

Aricle
  • Members
  • 428 messages

Kim Shepard wrote...
I come up with an idea for the character, develop the idea by getting their personality major choices straight before I even start the game with them, and then the minor details are figured out after I start to play.

@ Aricle: I think MaleShep left her alive... but I will have to replay again anyway. What she's doing doesn't bother him, since he did similar things back on Earth.
 



I would rather not kill her but that's me.

Do you ever get ideas from books? I have never played a maleShep but I just finished reading Northwest of Earth by C.L. Moore and would like a Shepard like Northwest Smith (the main character). The book was so good and so well-written, it's one of those that makes it hard to read anything else right after. I highly recommend it; all of the Northwest stories are collected in one volume.

The book is full of interesting details, as are some of the planet codex entries, and making a Northwest Shepard would connect the entire universe in a new way.

#2457
J4N3_M3
Posté 14 juillet 2010 - 05:58

J4N3_M3
  • Members
  • 2 308 messages

Goat_Shepard wrote...

I'm sorry, I meant "how can you not kill Sidonis?", it's not like an aside like the people you kill on Mordin's, Miranda's, or Jack's mission, it was the whole point of Garrus' mission. I can't begin to imagine Garrus' dialogue after you spare Sidonis :crying:


First, I thought, if I didn't let Garrus kill Sidonis, I wouldn't get his loyalty, but then on my second PT I made a save right before getting to Harkin just to see what would happen if I actually warned Sidonis. And it was really interesting to see. I don't see the point in personal revenge. Not at all....

And this way, Garrus got to hear Sidonis' side and what had happened and the fact, that Sidonis is haunted by what he's done is kinda more satisfying to me than his simple death. I guess, it has something to do with death sentence. I don't see the point in it either. Especially not when there is true remorse involved...

#2458
Collider
Posté 14 juillet 2010 - 05:59

Collider
  • Members
  • 17 165 messages
From the top of my head...



Paragon

1. Shutting down Veetor's computer.

2. Telling the racist Volus and C-Sec Officer on the Citadel off.

3. Interrupting Mordin on his recruitment mission

4. Interrupting Mordin on the Normandy.

5. Pushing the villager away from gunfire on Jacob's loyalty mission.

6. Hugging Tali on her loyalty mission.

7. Punching Zaeed on his loyalty mission.

8. Garrus' romance scene.



Probably more.

#2459
Aricle
Posté 14 juillet 2010 - 06:06

Aricle
  • Members
  • 428 messages

J4N3_M3 wrote...

First, I thought, if I didn't let Garrus kill Sidonis, I wouldn't get his loyalty, but then on my second PT I made a save right before getting to Harkin just to see what would happen if I actually warned Sidonis. And it was really interesting to see. I don't see the point in personal revenge. Not at all....

And this way, Garrus got to hear Sidonis' side and what had happened and the fact, that Sidonis is haunted by what he's done is kinda more satisfying to me than his simple death. I guess, it has something to do with death sentence. I don't see the point in it either. Especially not when there is true remorse involved...

Letting Garrus hear Sidonis out  was a moment where my Shepard and I agreed 100%. I entered it thinking I didn't want to kill Sidonis and, as I experienced it, made up my mind that was the right choice at the same time as Garrus came to the same conclusion, after having heard Sidonis' experience.

#2460
Mr.BlazenGlazen
Posté 14 juillet 2010 - 06:06

Mr.BlazenGlazen
  • Members
  • 4 159 messages
Posted Image

#2461
Kim Shepard
Posté 14 juillet 2010 - 06:07

Kim Shepard
  • Members
  • 3 257 messages

Aricle wrote...

Kim Shepard wrote...
I come up with an idea for the character, develop the idea by getting their personality major choices straight before I even start the game with them, and then the minor details are figured out after I start to play.

@ Aricle: I think MaleShep left her alive... but I will have to replay again anyway. What she's doing doesn't bother him, since he did similar things back on Earth.
 



I would rather not kill her but that's me.

Do you ever get ideas from books? I have never played a maleShep but I just finished reading Northwest of Earth by C.L. Moore and would like a Shepard like Northwest Smith (the main character). The book was so good and so well-written, it's one of those that makes it hard to read anything else right after. I highly recommend it; all of the Northwest stories are collected in one volume.

The book is full of interesting details, as are some of the planet codex entries, and making a Northwest Shepard would connect the entire universe in a new way.

Nope, I just make them up. xD One of my Shepards likes to imitate action movie characters though. (Kind of like Saren in Xsauce's fanfic "Fail for the Lost."  I always thought they'd get along.)

#2462
Guest_Raga_*
Posté 14 juillet 2010 - 06:08

Guest_Raga_*
  • Guests

Collider wrote...

It's true. Paragon and Renegade in many cases cannot be properly defined. It can be all over the place. I think in hindsight "diplomatic" wasn't the right term. I suppose we could say that paragon is more "morally righteous"?


Yea, that's kind of how I define paragon as well.  Paragon seems to be big on mercy, diplomacy where it's possible, and is not under any circumstances "the ends justify the means."  Paragon is about doing things with the least damage or trauma possible.  They will take chances and do things the long, hard way if they think it will avoid unethical behavior or harm to people.  They also seem to buy into that idea that "I can't predict how people will act, but I can control how I will react."  They seem to buy into some kind of purity of spirit thing.  They won't work with terrorists period despite Cerberus doing good work this time.  They won't keep the base because "it's dirty and people died there."

To me renegade can be defined several ways.  Pure renegade is utilitarian, consequentialist,  pro-human, and all about getting the job done.  Mission comes first to a renegade and "how" the mission gets done doesn't matter so long as the mission gets done.  Renegade also seems less likely to back down from a fight, and is in general not someone who will take orders.  Renegades seem to like to assert themselves.

Note I'm talking "pure" paragon and renegade here.  I recognize most people are more nuanced than that.  For instance, lot's of renegades aren't anti-alien but that means you have to avoid some renegade decisions.  You gotta go a little renegon to do that.  Likewise some paragons won't back down from a fight, but you usually have to go paragade to do that.

Oh, and Garrus.

#2463
Collider
Posté 14 juillet 2010 - 06:11

Collider
  • Members
  • 17 165 messages
Very good insight on paragon and renegade alignments, Ragabul. I agree with you.



Part of the reason I like Garrus is that he has a sort of "Batman" and to a lesser extent, "Punisher" morality system. It's a big part of his character, really, it's one of his defining features. He fights for justice and against corruption, however he takes a hardline approach against criminals.

#2464
Guest_Raga_*
Posté 14 juillet 2010 - 06:12

Guest_Raga_*
  • Guests

Goat_Shepard wrote...

@Kim these games are crazy. You're obviously going to have a greater experience than me. I never played a game over and over doing nearly the same thing and never getting bored of it.

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...
Well, sometimes she figures that such people are just too dangerous to be left alive or she thinks someone else deserves avenging and that since she is the only person who can bring them to justice, she has an ethical responsibility to do so.  Since she is strong and knows she can take the guilt, she figures she should pull the trigger as the next person might not be able to cope with it so well.


I'm sorry, I meant "how can you not kill Sidonis?", it's not like an aside like the people you kill on Mordin's, Miranda's, or Jack's mission, it was the whole point of Garrus' mission. I can't begin to imagine Garrus' dialogue after you spare Sidonis :crying:

Well how about Garrus?  He makes a great model.


Posted Image


Garrus thanks you for getting him to not go through with it.  He actually has much more to say if you go paragon there.  He kinda breaks down and lets you inside his shell a little.  I do it for Garrus mental health.  Garrus blames himself for his team's death and somehow thinks killing Sidonis will make it all better.  Killing Sidonis will not help Garrus get over his guilt.  It's not a panacea or a holy grail.  Even if he shoots Sidonis, his team will still be dead, he'll still have been betrayed, and he'll still feel guilty.  He needs to learn to let things go (like his hatred or his guilt) or he will literally drive himself mad.  I don't do it for Sidonis.  I do it for Garrus.

The Sidonis debate is a very, very long one that's been had many times.  I'm 50-50 on it.  Sometimes I kill him and sometimes I don't.

Modifié par Ragabul the Ontarah, 14 juillet 2010 - 06:18 .

#2465
Kim Shepard
Posté 14 juillet 2010 - 06:28

Kim Shepard
  • Members
  • 3 257 messages
I think of it this way - both answers are right for Garrus (he's loyal either way), but not so much for Shepard. Depending on how you play Shepard, he/she will have a certain choice that's in character for them. A Shepard who's big on second chances will most likely spare him, and a Shepard with a "never forgive" mindset will most likely let Garrus kill him. Both solutions will help Garrus feel better and he won't have any distractions on the suicide mission, but one solution might be "wrong" for the personality we create for our Shepards.

Most of my Shepards happen to be the "never forgive" type. Even the one I tried to plan out as Paragon became Paragade because she sort of turned out like Garrus, killing the bad guys instead of arresting them. xD

#2466
Goat_Shepard
Posté 14 juillet 2010 - 06:29

Goat_Shepard
  • Members
  • 11 117 messages

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

harrassmentsnp


Why is...why is she riding on Garrus' back? lol

@Ragabul
I imagine it's been debated quite a bit, I just don't see how you can not feel just as much guilt for letting Sidonis live as you would killing him. His team is still dead, yes, but isn't some action better than no action at all? Especially when you have already beaten yourself up about it over and over for so long, you would be putting that torment to waste by still doing nothing. It's also doing exactly what a cop would do, no?

#2467
Guest_Raga_*
Posté 14 juillet 2010 - 06:38

Guest_Raga_*
  • Guests

Goat_Shepard wrote...

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

harrassmentsnp


Why is...why is she riding on Garrus' back? lol

@Ragabul
I imagine it's been debated quite a bit, I just don't see how you can not feel just as much guilt for letting Sidonis live as you would killing him. His team is still dead, yes, but isn't some action better than no action at all? Especially when you have already beaten yourself up about it over and over for so long, you would be putting that torment to waste by still doing nothing. It's also doing exactly what a cop would do, no?


I feel guilt because Sidonis has become personified.  It's always harder for me to kill someone I can put a face and personality on.  I talk to him because I want to know why he did it.  I want to make sure Garrus doesn't jump the gun and kill someone he shouldn't.  Once he gets talking, he's no longer just a name.  I didn't now Garrus team so it doesn't have the raw rub it would have if Sidonis had betrayed me.  I know two people involved and those are Garrus and Sidonis only.  This is what I meant when I said I sometimes "suck it up and shoot him anyway."  I kill him because I recognize it is just, but I still feel sorry that I have to kill him.  I never like it that someone has to die even though I recognize that justice calls for that sometimes.  Does that make sense?

Also, killing Sidonis can be interpreted as merciful.  He is miserable and killing him ends his misery. Also, if I let Garrus kill him I feel guilty for Garrus because I feel I am reinforcing a worldview that isn't true.  Garrus doesn't understand why nothing ever works out.  He seems to truly believe that if he tries hard enough he can make it all better.  I feel guilty for spurring him on in that thinking.  I feel like I am dangling a carrot in front of his nose and just telling him what he wants to hear.

I always feel guilt both ways and I always feel satisfied both ways.  That's why I'm 50-50.  No answer fixes the situation.  There is no happy outcome there.  It's a horrible situation.

Modifié par Ragabul the Ontarah, 14 juillet 2010 - 06:43 .

#2468
Goat_Shepard
Posté 14 juillet 2010 - 06:47

Goat_Shepard
  • Members
  • 11 117 messages

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...
snp
Does that make sense?

Also, killing Sidonis can be interpreted as merciful.  He is miserable and killing him ends his misery.


I don't recall any of this. You don't learn of his misery if you kill him, right? There was nothing I can remember hearing that let me think Bioware intended that to be a blurry decision. That or once again my memory fails me.

Either way, it looks like I'll be sparing that lil bastard next playthrough to see what's up.

Posted Image

#2469
Collider
Posté 14 juillet 2010 - 06:50

Collider
  • Members
  • 17 165 messages
You can elect to talk to Sidonis before you kill him. You can learn that Sidonis pretty much feels dead. After which you can choose to let Garrus kill Sidonis if you want.

#2470
Goat_Shepard
Posté 14 juillet 2010 - 06:51

Goat_Shepard
  • Members
  • 11 117 messages

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...
Also, if I let Garrus kill him I feel guilty for Garrus because I feel I am reinforcing a worldview that isn't true.  Garrus doesn't understand why nothing ever works out.  He seems to truly believe that if he tries hard enough he can make it all better.  I feel guilty for spurring him on in that thinking.  I feel like I am dangling a carrot in front of his nose and just telling him what he wants to hear.

I always feel guilt both ways and I always feel satisfied both ways.  That's why I'm 50-50.  No answer fixes the situation.  There is no happy outcome there.  It's a horrible situation.


Damn, what a little perspective can do. And here I thought it was a black and white decision.

I'm gunna end up hating this mission just like I hate Tali's mission....that no-win feeling.

Collider wrote...

You can elect to talk to Sidonis before you kill him. You can learn that Sidonis pretty much feels dead. After
which you can choose to let Garrus kill Sidonis if you want.


I barely remember Sidonis saying 2 words, I must have missed something.

GDIT!

Modifié par Goat_Shepard, 14 juillet 2010 - 06:53 .

#2471
Collider
Posté 14 juillet 2010 - 06:53

Collider
  • Members
  • 17 165 messages
I thought Sidonis was a very gray decision. And I love gray decisions.



Goat, expand on that last statement in the Tali thread. :)

#2472
Guest_Raga_*
Posté 14 juillet 2010 - 06:54

Guest_Raga_*
  • Guests
Well, I always talk to Sidonis first. I wanted to make sure he deserved to die. That's just how my Shep is. She thought it was unfair of Garrus for him to ask her to help him gun some guy down when she doesn't know all the facts. Garrus is VERY impulsive and doesn't think empirically that often. I wanted to make sure Garrus wasn't jumping the gun and killing the guy without knowing all the facts. What Garrus thinks is true and what is actually true aren't necessarily the same thing. Anyway, once you talk to Sidonis and learn more, the situation becomes harder to deal with it. Garrus doesn't want to talk to Sidonis for that very reason. He knows he'll soften up if Sidonis starts speaking. He wants to think of Sidonis as a heartless murdering bastard who killed his team for money because that makes it much easier for him to shoot him. To hear about Sidonis fear or his misery will make him appear grey. Garrus doesn't want that.

#2473
Collider
Posté 14 juillet 2010 - 06:57

Collider
  • Members
  • 17 165 messages

To hear about Sidonis fear or his misery will make him appear grey. Garrus doesn't want that.


That is so true.

#2474
Goat_Shepard
Posté 14 juillet 2010 - 06:58

Goat_Shepard
  • Members
  • 11 117 messages

Collider wrote...
I thought Sidonis was a very gray decision. And I love gray decisions.


Hmm? Hating Tali's mission?

I thought Sidonis was a very gray decision. And I love gray decisions.


I hate them. With great passion. Why not give me no option? "Step out of the way"....."Warn Sidonis"......."GARRUS JUST DO WHAT YOU WANT TO DO I CAN'T WORK IN THESE STRESSFUL CONDITIONS!"

Modifié par Goat_Shepard, 14 juillet 2010 - 06:58 .

#2475
Collider
Posté 14 juillet 2010 - 06:58

Collider
  • Members
  • 17 165 messages
@Goat: yes.
Retourner dans Fan Creations


  1. The BioWare Forum
  2. → Mass Effect
  3. → Mass Effect Franchise
  4. → Fan Creations