302 réponses à ce sujet

[Neotribe]

Part of what makes an RPG an RPG usually involves not being led around by the nose, or straitjacketed in a linear narrative progression.  I think we can all agree that ME2 is a lot weaker than ME1 in that regard.

But, for heavens sake, please stop with the Redcliffe-style forced mission cop-outs. There is nothing more obnoxious in ME2 (so far) than having control taken out of my hands be being plunked into a meeting with the Illusive Man (and boy is that pun getting old)  and then forced to go on a mission I haven't selected w/no option to delay (or in DA to decline w/o severe negative consequences.)

Also, although I haven't completed the loyalty missions  yet or even made much of a dent int he sidequests, I've already been offered the Reaper IFF assignment --without any warning that once I complete it I won't be able to wait too long before Omega4.

Yes, I've become paranoid enough about Bioware's hidden & forced plot triggers that I went and spoiled ME2 for myself, to make sure I wouldn't compromise my first playthrough. Regrettably it proved neccessary and thus wise, and I'm glad I did.

Stop doing this, Bioware. It's getting worse in every game.

Modifié par Neotribe, 27 juin 2010 - 11:57 .

[Christmas Ape]

I rather like the feeling that the plot also some times moves of its own accord, rather than sitting around waiting for the hero to show up. Feels more authentic. Your mileage, it appears, may vary.



That said...I've never been forced into the meeting. Sure I can't go anywhere else right now, but all I wanted to do was swap out some armor pieces and retrain my skills anyway.

[Neotribe]

What if you had unlocked upgrades and needed to mine before your next mission? Or go shopping? Or unlock loyalty powers?  Especially since forced missions tend to be main plot elements with difficulty bumps.....


It's just lazy writing development, in my opinion, and really detracts from the experience. Being forced to the Collector Ship isn't quite as bad as Redcliffe, but it's pretty close. The issues w/forced progression after the IFF are worse, IMHO. But I don't want to say too much about that in this subforum.

OTOH, I'm glad this sort of thing is entertaining someone out there! Indeed, YMMV. 

Modifié par Neotribe, 27 juin 2010 - 12:07 .

[Khayness]

I wouldn't exactly call it a hidden trigger.

And as Xmas Ape said, it seems more realistic. In ME1 you can do all the side quests right before Ilos, and it makes little sense plot wise.

[Felfenix]

Yeah, there should be a dialog option in all Bioware games to tell the Reapers or Darkspawn to hold up, cause you didn't finish your side quests. "Hey guys, please don't attack yet!!! I'm not ready~!!!"



So is Redcliffe the new Benezia? Maybe if posting doesn't work, you can hack the game files...

[Neotribe]

What? Why all the butt-hurt? Maybe the script shouldn't flow that way if it creates metagame issues. The Redcliffe dilemma is forced on you w/no warning as soon as you show up from the travel map. You are given absolutely no clue regarding consequences of  attempting to delay (it's better after you reach town.)  Similarly, in ME2  you are forced into meeting with the Illusive Man and thrown into another mission immediately after competing it's predecessor. Later, post-IFF the whole "consequences of delay" dynamic rears its ugly head again--severe metagame consequences, little or no ingame warning.  Sorry, but in my view ME is not supposed to be a linear adventure game.

I'm not taking my toys and going home or expecting posting to "work" (LOL?), I'm giving my considered opinion as accreted over 20 plus years of gaming, including play of almost every game Bioware has published. The BGs, the NWNs...take your pick.

No, the enemy should not wait for an engraved invitation to attack, but the narrative structure should be smart enough to prevent the players from reaching that plot point too easily or (certainly!) unintentionally.  Bioware's games are becoming too set-piece and linear in my view.

You may disagree, fine. I don't get where all the nerdrage is coming from. Do you have a Casey Hudson poster in your bedroom?

Modifié par Neotribe, 27 juin 2010 - 12:25 .

[elearon1]

I'm ... not actually sure where your problem arose from. I have never fealt as though I were being forced into missions I wasn't ready for yet. Yes, there are times when you are whisked up in the ongoing story, because it is moving forward whether you want to do a few more side missions or mine a few planets, and I find that a refreshing change from games which give you all the time in the world to get around to the story.



My only issue is that the game has very little replay value - as there is very little difference from one playthrough and another; the same goes for DA. (though at least with ME, if you bring in a different character from the first game, which made some significantly different choices, you get to experience some altered background detail, which does make it feel as though *your* story is continuing.)

[Christmas Ape]

What if you had unlocked upgrades and needed to mine before your next mission? Or go shopping? Or unlock loyalty powers?

Then I guess I'm going without, because those poor colonist bastards need Shepard now, not "when I'm done with this other thing". Apparently the Collectors didn't get a copy of my itinerary - my Yeoman's getting an earful, I promise you! - and they've decided to move their agenda forward. You've got ten minutes to do your hair and fix your makeup, ladies. We go groundside in fifteen.



I don't want the game to take my hand and walk me to the finish line with frequent pauses to make sure the pace isn't too much for me. We're saving the whole damn species here. Maybe there's some casualties because I thought I could dither around the ass-end of the galaxy while alien horrors do gods-know-what to the crewmen who served me loyally. Maybe I get pinned down and have to bust my ass to get out from under Collector guns because I decided I had to bring the guy whose guts are still churning over some unfinished personal business. This isn't a Disney sci-fi epic, not everybody's going to come out of a galaxy-wide war feeling better than they were. Maybe someone dies. Maybe a lot of them. And maybe it's my fault.



Guess I'll go select "New Game" again and try to do better this time.



Did nobody play Star Control 2? You could actually be doomed to lose well before you were even close to done. Still one of the most fondly remembered games I've ever heard of.

[Neotribe]

I don't want the game to take my hand and walk me to the finish line with frequent pauses to make sure the pace isn't too much for me. We're saving the whole damn species here. Maybe there's some casualties because I thought I could dither around the ass-end of the galaxy while alien horrors do gods-know-what to the crewmen who served me loyally. Maybe I get pinned down and have to bust my ass to get out from under Collector guns because I decided I had to bring the guy whose guts are still churning over some unfinished personal business. This isn't a Disney sci-fi epic, not everybody's going to come out of a galaxy-wide war feeling better than they were. Maybe someone dies. Maybe a lot of them. And maybe it's my fault.
...
Guess I'll go select "New Game" again and try to do better this time.

So it's more sensible (and better deisgn) to need to play with pre-knowledge of the plot and make sure not to trigger main plot events until dutifully completing the side-quests and loyalty quests (which you are supposed to "stumble onto?") Or to delay going to Ilium until having mined every rich planet within reach to ensure being able to do all upgrades as they become available?

I'm ... not actually sure where your problem arose from. I have never fealt as though I were being forced into missions I wasn't ready for yet. Yes, there are times when you are whisked up in the ongoing story, because it is moving forward whether you want to do a few more side missions or mine a few planets, and I find that a refreshing change from games which give you all the time in the world to get around to the story.

I take the point about the urgency of the mission and all that, but it's the job of the writers and devs to make the plot work while preserving the supposedly open-world exploratory design. The one shouldn't run afoul of the other.

So far as Star Control is concerned, I respect that kind of design--but it didn't foreclose you from experiencing the totality of the game, and multiple playthroughs are not a great answer to this complaint.

My only issue is that the game has very little replay value - as there is very little difference from one playthrough and another; the same goes for DA. (though at least with ME, if you bring in a different character from the first game, which made some significantly different choices, you get to experience some altered background detail, which does make it feel as though *your* story is continuing.)

I agree, although I feel bad giving Bioware too much of a hard time about that. The mad-libs fill in the blank style is just how they do things. I would just prefer to see them do it better.

I know this may be heresy in these parts, but when it comes to writing and branching Bioware could take some notes from Bethesda.

Modifié par Neotribe, 27 juin 2010 - 12:41 .

[Ecael]

For a second there I thought jensonagain was back.

Neotribe wrote...

Part of what makes an RPG an RPG usually involves not being led around by the nose, or straitjacketed in a linear narrative progression.  I think we can all agree that ME2 is a lot weaker than ME1 in that regard.

The only choices you get in Mass Effect 1 are Feros, Noveria and Therum. Once two of them are completed, Virmire is unlocked. Once all four are completed, you're immediately ordered back to the Citadel with the inability to return again and "straitjacketed" into the end-game.

You can't even continue playing after the game is over, forcing you to start over.

Hate to burst your bubble, but it's always been that way - the illusion of choice. It's no different in Mass Effect 2.

Neotribe wrote...

You may disagree, fine. I don't get where all the nerdrage is coming from. Do you have a Casey Hudson poster in your bedroom?

I don't see anyone nerdraging here except you.

[elearon1]

My first playthrough only one party member died in the final battle and I fealt cheated. After hearing how this was a suicide mission most of the party wouldn't return from in the end it turned out to be too easy to keep them alive. This playthrough I'm making conscious decisions which should insure more of my people die.

[Neotribe]

It's a little worse in ME2, as it's a lot easier to hit the endgame before making much of a dent in the optional midgame (which is most of the content.)

I'm not raging, really. I was just musing, and it seemed to me that Redcliffe is where the shark was jumped on this dynamic. I have no idea who jensonagain is, but apparently this is a sore subject around here. Wasn't looking to ruffle any feathers, but I don't take kindly to snide suggestions that I go hack the game files if I don't like the dev's choices.

Modifié par Neotribe, 27 juin 2010 - 12:45 .

[Ecael]

Neotribe wrote...

I'm not raging, really. I was just musing, and it seemed to me that Redcliffe is where the shark was jumped on this dynamic. I have no idea who jensonagain is, but apparently this is a sore subject around here. Wasn't looking to ruffle any feathers, but I don't take kindly to snide suggestions that I go hack the game files if I don't like the dev's choices.

Felfenix's post was hardly snide. It seems like you're taking offense to anything and everything that's being said.

[Christmas Ape]

Neotribe wrote...

So it's more sensible to play with pre-knowledge of the plot and make sure not to trigger main plot events until dutifully completing the side-quests (which you are supposed to "stumble onto?")

That's...only kind of related to what I said, and frankly makes up a whole lot of things you then respond to. If you were actually trying to answer my post there, I'm going to need you to walk me through how.



But when compared to spoiling the main plot arc before your first playthrough to avoid "compromis[ing]" it by, I gather, not being as perfectly equipped and set up as you could possibly be thanks to Shepard being not merely an Alliance Marine but also the Kwisatz Haderach? Yeah, pretty much.

[elearon1]

>>So it's more sensible (and better deisgn) to need to play with pre-knowledge of the plot<<



But, see, this never happened to me. I had no foreknowledge of the story when I went in yet managed to do everything just fine. If I was told about a mission I wasn't ready for yet, I simply avoided it until I was. Maybe I'm just really awesome at these kinds of games and know exactly how to get the most out of them ... but I doubt it.

[Felfenix]

I'm surprised the OP didn't throw a hissy fit over Vault whatever in Fallout 3 doing the exact same thing. Though I haven't visited any Bethesda forums. Maybe he did.

[Neotribe]

Ecael wrote...
Felfenix's post was hardly snide. It seems like you're taking offense to anything and everything that's being said.

I disagree. That post was purely mockery. I've been listening to what other people have said, and tried to clarify my view.  As to FO3, it was widely faulted on that account especially versus Oblivion. For whatever reason, it didn't bother me as much. Maybe because the base game was just somewhere to start, and modding allowed you to make it whatever you liked?

Apparently anyone who doesn't agree with you is throwing a hissy fit? Or you can't recognize a friendly disagreement without lots of and ?

More likely is that you're trolling, so I'll spare you any further replies.

Modifié par Neotribe, 27 juin 2010 - 12:52 .

[Felfenix]

Ecael, calm down! Everyone but the OP is clearly nerdraging!

Modifié par Felfenix, 27 juin 2010 - 12:52 .

[Ecael]

Neotribe wrote...

Ecael wrote...
Felfenix's post was hardly snide. It seems like you're taking offense to anything and everything that's being said.

I disagree. That post was purely mockery. I've been listening to what other people have said, and tried to clarify my view.  You're trolling, so I'll spare you any further replies.

I was just musing,

[Felfenix]

This is serious business.

[Neotribe]

I think it's more the two of you. But, hey, knock yourselves out. It would seem people are accustomed to this sort of thing in recent Bioware titles, so I'll be the old grump.

[elearon1]

>>More likely is that you're trolling, so I'll spare you any further replies.<<



Seriously, man, you are being oversensitive. I see it happen all the time on forums - step back and adjust the inner voice reading this posts to remove any assumed sarcasm and you'll see most of the responses have been friendly.

[Nordic Einar]

Did nobody play Star Control 2? You could actually be doomed to lose well before you were even close to done. Still one of the most fondly remembered games I've ever heard of.

I *loved* that freaking game. That game was SO unforgiving.

[essarr71]

I dunno. First time I got the IFF mission and looked at the galaxy map, saw one mission vs exploration/completion of dozens of planets just sitting - and knowing which would further the plot - i knew to steer clear. It's your choice when to get started down the endgame road. If it was your first time through i can understand feeling like you got boxed in, but thats the best part of a first play through - you're never going to be surprised again. Load an old save or just embrace it and go with it.



The only frustrating aspect of this that I couldn't stand is not being able to have legion for most of the side missions without sacrificing your crew. But that Bioware left it an option to do what you want rather than forcing you to save the day is cruel/realistic of them. There really is only two missions you get forced into immediately, and neither leave you at a point where you no longer have freedom.

[Suron]

Ecael wrote...

Neotribe wrote...

I'm not raging, really. I was just musing, and it seemed to me that Redcliffe is where the shark was jumped on this dynamic. I have no idea who jensonagain is, but apparently this is a sore subject around here. Wasn't looking to ruffle any feathers, but I don't take kindly to snide suggestions that I go hack the game files if I don't like the dev's choices.

Felfenix's post was hardly snide. It seems like you're taking offense to anything and everything that's being said that doesn't mirror your own thoughts.

fixed it for ya Ecael

EDIT: however I do agree with him on the unexplained and downright terribly written "mission" everyone HAS to go on...even if you've DONE EVERYTHING..just before the collectors take your crew.  You can't defend that abortion of good writing.

Modifié par Suron, 27 juin 2010 - 01:30 .