302 réponses à ce sujet

[Neotribe]

I have to admit that I'm surprised that players apparently like these triggered events and the associated foreclosure of certain subplots. Maybe my distaste for them comes from being too invested in the metagame (although it seems to me that the game design encourages that), or maybe I need to temper my traditionalist RPG expectations. In any case, I can see I'm on the fringe here. So it goes!

[Christmas Ape]

EDIT: however I do agree with him on the unexplained and downright terribly written "mission" everyone HAS to go on...even if you've DONE EVERYTHING..just before the collectors take your crew. You can't defend that abortion of good writing.

Oh, the shuttle ride to nowhere? Yeah, that was a little sloppy, but without rewriting large stretches of the game I'm not exactly sure how you'd prepare for that as a developer.

[Throw_this_away]

It's just lazy writing development, in my opinion, and really detracts from the experience. Being forced to the Collector Ship isn't quite as bad as Redcliffe, but it's pretty close. The issues w/forced progression after the IFF are worse, IMHO. But I don't want to say too much about that in this subforum.

No.

this is WAY more RPG and realistic than ME1 or sandbox games. 

As was said before... in the real world the bad guys don;t wait around for Shep to run missions on side planets that all look the same so they can upgrade gear incrimentally (funny how gear found in ME1 always manages to be only slightly better than the gear from the last mission...hmmmm... that happens in real life, right?). 

TIM: Shep... there is a collector ship... we need to board it.  This is our only chance!!!
Shep: Yawn.  Wait a minute... I need to get some colossus armour... it looks so sweet.  
TIM: Shep... we need to move now... this is our only chance!!!
Shep: Does red make me look too gay?
TIM: Kind of.  Go with the green.  It brings out your eyes. 
Shep: Assassin armour it is!!!

Modifié par Throw_this_away, 27 juin 2010 - 02:25 .

[Throw_this_away]

Neotribe wrote...

No, the enemy should not wait for an engraved invitation to attack, but the narrative structure should be smart enough to prevent the players from reaching that plot point too easily or (certainly!) unintentionally.  Bioware's games are becoming too set-piece and linear in my view.

No.

Time moves forward at a constant pace in the game.  They force you into things sooner than you may wish so that you don;t have a maxed out character by the second collector mission.  They also allow you to try the final mission early as it is bait that results in lots of death in the suicide mission.  If everyone could get to that mission on their own time line... everyone would live everytime. 

That being said... it you don't start the IFF mission... you can play all the side quests you want.  

Neotribe wrote...
You may disagree, fine. I don't get where all the nerdrage is coming from. Do you have a Casey Hudson poster in your bedroom?

The nerdrage comes from the fact that people disagree with you. 

[AjaxDuo]

TIM: Shep... there is a collector ship... we need to board it.  This is our only chance!!!
Shep: Yawn.  Wait a minute... I need to get some colossus armour... it looks so sweet.  
TIM: Shep... we need to move now... this is our only chance!!!
Shep: Does red make me look too gay?
TIM: Kind of.  Go with the green.  It brings out your eyes. 
Shep: Assassin armour it is!!!

Agreed i prefer the realism element in rpg's I mean yes it could be improved on, say you refuse an assignment to do another quest and it has it's consequences. Still theres nothing worse than knowing that it's the games climax and you can run all the way over the world just get some nice pretty shoes or stand around aimlessly without a worry in mind, it really kicks the rpg in the daddy bags. I think that having unperfected/uncompleted characters and finishing the game gives it more replay value to do another run through with a different type of character etc. Overall though it's impossible to create an RPG that caters for everyone, we all prefer different things no?

[Neotribe]

I LOL'd.

I take the point that in-game realism makes the inability to delay appropriate, but that's not exactly a response to my point, which is a metagme complaint that the game's script should not force that on you prematurely. It seems to me that it does so in ME2.  Since most of ME2's content is in the loyalty missions and the sidequests, it feels wrong to me that if you inadvertently advance too quickly by triggering the main plot milestones and/or immediately doing what TIM requests as soon as those missions become available (as a newcomer to the Bioware style might well do), you miss out on most of the game. Combined with the familiar set-piece Bioware style discussed upthread, I personally find the result to be a little disappointing.  Others largely do not appear to share the concern. For some, it seems to be regarded as a feature. Different strokes, I suppose.

While I think other Bioware games have been better, let me be clear: I'm still enjoying ME2 quite a bit, and I remain a fan of the series.

Modifié par Neotribe, 27 juin 2010 - 02:47 .

[AjaxDuo]

I guess since ME2 is the build up for ME3 they had to keep it believable, I did like the open gameplay of ME1 when you could do main missions in any order etc until the climax that was. I still think ME2 is open enough, you can complete side quests/loyalty/get some new shoes and the like. The things of ME2 i didn't like was:

The mission completed screens, no exp from killing people

Low level cap

It was more enjoyable than ME1 though, major overhaul in combat mechanics and the like.

[Throw_this_away]

Neotribe wrote...
the game's script should not force that on you prematurely. Since most of ME2's content is in the loyalty missions and the sidequests, it feels wrong to me that if you naively immediately do what TIM requests as soon as those missions become available, you miss out on most of the game.

TIM: Shep Horizon is being attacked as we speak!  WE must go there and save the colonists immediatly!
Shep: Hey there.  What's up?  You know... I really would like to hack a few terminals for Liara first.    
TIM: Shep... we need to move now... this isour only chance!!!
Shep: This does feel a bit premature.  There is still a lot of galaxy that I want to see.  I havn't even tried to recover that captured cerberus agent yet.  And what about that planet with the crates and three YMR Heavy mechs?
TIM: Sheppard!  You need to get your priorities straight and save the colonists.  Every 30 seconds a 3rd world child Horizon child dies from a curable diseases  gets stung by a big-assed bug and blended into pod-soup. 
Shep: You really are a buzz-kill.  I wish I could cut you off like in ME1!!!
TIM: Yeah, quantum entanglement really is a **** that way. 
Shep: Tell me about it.  Kills the immersion.  Bioware is getting so linear.
TIM: Who is bioware?
Shep: Nevermind. 

Modifié par Throw_this_away, 27 juin 2010 - 03:03 .

[Neotribe]

Quite right, and too funny. I almost choked on my coffee.

[Voods07]

 I have a feeling we wont see anything like this in ME3. I feel that the aspects the community least enjoys (minus helmet toggeling) were put in place by Bioware to ensure the gap Between ME1 and ME3 stays bridged. They hold our hand throughout the game out of good intensions, not bad designing.

I personally ALWAYS find the 2nd chapter in a trilogy to be almost a chore to watch/read. Save for ME2 and its way of pushing us through, while liniar, it keeps us busy, informed and out goal reminded.

My examples of mundane second chapters: LotR: Two Towers (snooze!), The Matrix: Reloaded (yawn!), Star Wars Ep. II: Attack of the clones (eh...)

[Throw_this_away]

Reaper: It is time to invade!  The human resistance has no chance against the infinite might of the reapers!
Collector General: Umm... sir... could we get a rain-check on this invasion?
Reaper: No.  We must move swiftly to destroy this human Sheppard.  He/She has proven to be a worthy foe.
Collector General: Oh for sure.  I'm not denying that, but I just figured we could give him some more time. 
Reaper: Are you kidding me? 
Collector General:  Hey, feel free to lead the invasion yourself.  It is all to easy for you to order an attack when you can just "assume control" of one of my top men only to lead him directly into a cain blast!!!  
Reaper: But...
Collector General:  You really need to be more careful.  I am the one who needs to tell little Jimmy that his dad won;t be coming home because he got melted by a bald girl showing more muffin-top than my mother in a bikini.      
Reaper: But... Shepard will only grow stronger if we delay our attack. 
Collector General: So what!!  Shep gets a new chestplate and a Assault rife that has more ammo.  If that means I get two more good nights rest than I will take the risk. 
Reaper: Sleep is important.
Collector General: Studies show that being awake more than 24hours is  like being legally drunk. 
Reaper: And that is not safe.  Ok.  You have your wish.  We delay our invasion until Shepard gets his/her new chest plate.  Then... the galaxy is ours!!!

Modifié par Throw_this_away, 27 juin 2010 - 03:25 .

[Christmas Ape]

I feel that the aspects the community least enjoys (minus helmet toggeling) were put in place by Bioware to ensure the gap Between ME1 and ME3 stays bridged. They hold our hand throughout the game out of good intensions, not bad designing.



I personally ALWAYS find the 2nd chapter in a trilogy to be almost a chore to watch/read. Save for ME2 and its way of pushing us through, while liniar, it keeps us busy, informed and out goal reminded.

If I may be slightly more charitable, think of the trilogy like a boxing combo. The big right cross of ME1 sets you back on your heels, the quick jab of ME2 rocks you back, and the uppercut of ME3 flattens you out. By itself the jab isn't much, but it sets you up for the killing stroke.

[Annie_Dear]

Throw_this_away wrote...

Reaper: It is time to invade!  The human resistance has no chance against the infinite might of the reapers!
Collector General: Umm... sir... could we get a rain-check on this invasion?
Reaper: No.  We must move swiftly to destroy this human Sheppard.  He/She has proven to be a worthy foe.
Collector General: Oh for sure.  I'm not denying that, but I just figured we could give him some more time. 
Reaper: Are you kidding me? 
Collector General:  Hey, feel free to lead the invasion yourself.  It is all to easy for you to order an attack when you can just "assume control" of one of my top men only to lead him directly into a cain blast!!!  
Reaper: But...
Collector General:  You really need to be more careful.  I am the one who needs to tell little Jimmy that his dad won;t be coming home because he got melted by a bald girl showing more muffin-top than my mother in a bikini.      
Reaper: But... Shepard will only grow stronger if we delay our attack. 
Collector General: So what!!  Shep gets a new chestplate and a Assault rife that has more ammo.  If that means I get two more good nights rest than I will take the risk. 
Reaper: Sleep is important.
Collector General: Studies show that being awake more than 24hours is  like being legally drunk. 
Reaper: And that is not safe.  Ok.  You have your wish.  We delay our invasion until Shepard gets his/her new chest plate.  Then... the galaxy is ours!!!

Modifié par Annie_Dear, 27 juin 2010 - 03:28 .

[Hulk Hsieh]

The TIM missions happen twice, and you can still do/not to do every remaining quest in the order you like after the 2 missions. I don't really see anything worth fussing over.

It is like random encounters happening in BG series. You are not warned or prepared, but they happen anyway.

[LaurenIsSoMosh]

I think it's hilarious how most of you are disagreeing with him, yet, from my observations, he is one of the few here with valid, tangible statements. The rest are founded in opinion and preference, not correct progression design.

Paint whatever picture you like, but forcing players into something, especially without giving them warning, is sloppy, unprofessional game design. There's no way around that. If you're forcing a game element in order to advance a story element, you're doing it wrong. Go write a book or movie instead, but that's unacceptable in game design 101, realistic or not.

And even if you stick by your arguments that Horizon and the Collector ship cannot be made to wait, the IFF mission and the IFF test run are two individual events, yet they are categorized as one and the same. Why can't I do the IFF mission as soon as it's made available but still put off the test run? Lives aren't at stake with that, but I still have no choice but to get in my combat cockroach and watch the end game begin. The majority of the loyalty missions take place around the IFF mission. BioWare put crap loads of emphasis on the consequences of attempting the suicide mission without a loyal squad, and yet they're the ones running you through the cattle gates with little choice or prior warning.

They conflicted their own game design in more ways than one. Sloppy as crap.

Modifié par LaurenIsSoMosh, 27 juin 2010 - 03:46 .

[Hulk Hsieh]

LaurenIsSoMosh wrote...

I think it's hilarious how most of you are disagreeing with him, yet, from my observations, he is one of the few here with valid, tangible statements. The rest are founded in opinion and preference, not correct progression design.

Paint whatever picture you like, but forcing players into something, especially without giving them warning, is sloppy, unprofessional game design. There's no way around that. If you're forcing a game element in order to advance a story element, you're doing it wrong. Go write a book or movie instead, but that's unacceptable in game design 101, realistic or not.

What do you think about random encounter/events when playing a sandbox RPG?
You are not warned so they shouldn't happen?

[LaurenIsSoMosh]

Hulk Hsieh wrote...
What do you think about random encounter/events when playing a sandbox RPG?
You are not warned so they shouldn't happen?

Do they severely limit or cut off a player's ability to do the things they want?

Random events in and of themselves are not the issue here. Forcing the player to jump forward from "I'm still preparing for the final boss" to "crap, I'm not ready but I have to do this right now" is the problem.

[Hulk Hsieh]

LaurenIsSoMosh wrote...

Do they severely limit or cut off a player's ability to do the things they want?

Random events in and of themselves are not the issue here. Forcing the player to jump forward from "I'm still preparing for the final boss" to "crap, I'm not ready but I have to do this right now" is the problem.

Wait... I think we can go Omega 4 after doing everything we want.
Are we playing the same game?

[NKKKK]

Lol you're complaints are unfound, do the game right genius.

[HTTP 404]

some games put disclaimers up when the plot is forced to move ahead. maybe they need that for mass effect? idk, when it comes to bioware games and every open ended game including gta games, I tend to do all the side missions, explore as much as possible before moving forward to what I think are the main plot story lines.

[LaurenIsSoMosh]

Hulk Hsieh wrote...
Wait... I think we can go Omega 4 after doing everything we want.
Are we playing the same game?

You know exactly what we're talking about.

After the test run, players are given two options: continue preparing with unwanted consequences, or go in unprepared with other unwanted consequences. Whichever option chosen results in unwanted consequences.

Players are not physically forced through the relay, but giving players a choice that black and white is a lose/lose. It might as well be forcing, because either option chosen is probable to end in frustration.