302 réponses à ce sujet

[Christmas Ape]

LaurenIsSoMosh wrote...
If you follow the natural progression of the story with no prior knowledge of what will happen, you can assume you're building your team. The Illusive Man stresses the need for Mordin to complete a counter-measure, but there's no sufficient hint that, upon gathering a small squad, you're going to be teleported to a colony invasion. It's unpredictable.

You are consciously ignoring the Journal to be able to make this point. The proposed "goal" of game design is the experience for the player. The player, who has access to the Journal, is given a twenty foot blazing neon signpost that something is going to happen when you're done with these. At the least the fact that nothing new of any importance happens when you're finished five of them should have given you a hint the story doesn't just stop. Are you familiar with the concept of chapters?

Regarding the bolded section: Well, there's the fact that the entire opening premise of the story is that [redacted] are taking human colonies. Past that, if you need to know what specific turns the story is going to take in advance, read spoilers. Don't expect the game to provide them.

First and foremost, the conflict of themes is still there. The Illusive Man tells you to continue building your squad, which is quickly contradicted by a surprise visit from him and a mandatory field trip.
Secondly, the player is still forced into it, and, unlike Horizon, this mission doesn't trigger after you run out of stuff to do, making it all the more unpredictable than previous scripted missions.

So while it doesn't ultimately matter, you don't like it. That's fine. I guess they should have asked you first. Wasn't a big deal for me.

I don't get where you've come to this conclusion that we're presented with a choice that has consequences. There is no choice. There are only the consequences, both of which are undesirable.

Explain how choosing between one of the following options is not a choice.
a) Go now. Some members of your team, or possibly even their Commander, may perish on what has been advertised from day one as a suicide mission.
Go after doing certain loyalty or even recruitment missions. Some of your crew, presently in peril, may perish in exchange for an enhanced chance of success at the mission.

Just because you don't like a choice doesn't invalidate its existence. I'm sorry they didn't write in a big shiny trail of bread crumbs for you to follow to the feel-good everybody-wins PG-13 straight-to-video ending. But in their defense, they never promised you one.

Edit for clarity, spoiler redaction.

Modifié par Christmas Ape, 27 juin 2010 - 06:32 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Unpredictable



Forced to do something



Sounds good to me.

[Hulk Hsieh]

I think the real problem here is someone is on his high horse waving a flag called "game design" like there is something called "correct game design" which is defined by what his personal preference.

Modifié par Hulk Hsieh, 27 juin 2010 - 06:41 .

[AlanC9]

You mean you're having trouble following Christmas Ape, slimgrin?

Modifié par AlanC9, 27 juin 2010 - 06:45 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

I wasn't detecting sarcasm either.

[Christmas Ape]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I wasn't detecting sarcasm either.

Well, there was a little. Your detector might be wonky.
But it's only one of the many services I provide, so you can be forgiven for missing it.

Modifié par Christmas Ape, 27 juin 2010 - 06:52 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

2 whole sarcastic sentences. If it was me with that post it would have had 8

[Christmas Ape]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

2 whole sarcastic sentences. If it was me with that post it would have had 8

Well, that was with my helpful hat on.
My "I can't believe I have to go over this" helpful hat, but hey. It's still helpful.
And jaunty!

[LaurenIsSoMosh]

Christmas Ape wrote...
You are consciously ignoring the Journal to be able to make this point. The proposed "goal" of game design is the experience for the player. The player, who has access to the Journal, is given a twenty foot blazing neon signpost that something is going to happen when you're done with these. At the least the fact that nothing new of any importance happens when you're finished five of them should have given you a hint the story doesn't just stop. Are you familiar with the concept of chapters?

First of all, clearly you are mistaking my comments of proper game design for stupidity or ignorance. High five and Skittles for you, but it lowers your own stance in a debate when you misjudge other perspectives. I'd suggest for your own benefit that you cut the sarcasm and handle your responses more thoughtfully.

Secondly, this was also a mistake of Dragon Age. Players who don't religiously study the codex in that game can stumble through the main and side quests cluelessly. Nothing is sufficiently discussed in dialogue. The journal is, more or less, akin to foot notes in a book, or the director's commentary in a movie. Imagine if the climax in any good movie was not explained within the movie itself, and you had to resort to commentary mode to understand that. Would you defend the movie so readily as you'd defend this game?

Past that, if you need to know what specific turns the story is going to take in advance, read spoilers. Don't expect the game to provide them.

This isn't about spoilers. This is about the developers writing the story to fit the game progression. The player doesn't need to know what's happening next so long as they'll be able to handle whatever is thrown at them.

Explain how choosing between one of the following options is not a choice.

Because they're not. They're consequences for a choice that the player has no control over.

If the developers had written the test run to trigger at the player's permission, it could have been avoided entirely.

Modifié par LaurenIsSoMosh, 27 juin 2010 - 07:00 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

I'm seriously not seeing how this is an issue.

[Jackal904]

I like it because it's makes sense that you would have to do those missions at a specific time. The collectors are not going to wait for you to land on horizon before they start invading it, and their ship isn't going to remain vulnerable forever. I know there are a lot of missions where you can initiate them at any time, and every time you start it, it's like you got their just in time. But oh well. Suck it up, it's not that big of a deal.

[Onyx Jaguar]

LaurenIsSoMosh wrote...

Christmas Ape wrote...
You are consciously ignoring the Journal to be able to make this point. The proposed "goal" of game design is the experience for the player. The player, who has access to the Journal, is given a twenty foot blazing neon signpost that something is going to happen when you're done with these. At the least the fact that nothing new of any importance happens when you're finished five of them should have given you a hint the story doesn't just stop. Are you familiar with the concept of chapters?

First of all, clearly you are mistaking my comments of proper game design for stupidity or ignorance. High five and Skittles for you, but it lowers your own stance in a debate when you misjudge other perspectives. I'd suggest for your own benefit that you cut the sarcasm and handle your responses more thoughtfully.

Secondly, this was also a mistake of Dragon Age. Players who don't religiously study the codex in that game can stumble through the main and side quests cluelessly. Nothing is sufficiently discussed in dialogue. The journal is, more or less, akin to foot notes in a book, or the director's commentary in a movie. Imagine if the climax in any good movie was not explained within the movie itself, and you had to resort to commentary mode to understand that. Would you defend the movie so readily as you'd defend this game?

Past that, if you need to know what specific turns the story is going to take in advance, read spoilers. Don't expect the game to provide them.

This isn't about spoilers. This is about the developers writing the story to fit the game progression. The player doesn't need to know what's happening next so long as they'll be able to handle whatever is thrown at them.

Explain how choosing between one of the following options is not a choice.

Because they're not. They're consequences for a choice that the player has no control over.

If the developers had written the test run to trigger at the player's permission, it could have been avoided entirely.

A)  Duncan and Riordan pretty much tell you everything you need to know

  Now you are just arguing for the sake of arguing

C)  Excuse me while I write my own novel

[Christmas Ape]

First of all, clearly you are mistaking my comments of proper game design for stupidity or ignorance.

Well, you're making it easy. "Proper game design" is not one of the secret names of God, merely uttering it does not give you the point of authority. You are arguing for a story that progresses only at the player's leisure. I suggest this is not the intended result of the design of Mass Effect 2, but rather to convey a certain sense of urgency and of, for the first portion of the story, being on the defensive, reacting to the attacks. If you don't like that, fine, but try not to tart it up as a mistake just because it doesn't agree with you.

Secondly, this was also a mistake of Dragon Age.

Completely irrelevant, as is your hypothetical movie which shares Dragon Age's problems. As part two of a trilogy, Mass Effect 2's ratio of answer to remaining question is a matter of personal taste.

This isn't about spoilers. This is about the developers writing the story to fit the game progression.

No, it's apparently about them writing the story to fit your preferred concept of the game progression. And they didn't have to ask you. Apparently millions of people liked it fine.

The player doesn't need to know what's happening next so long as they'll be able to handle whatever is thrown at them.

And fortunately, the game is designed so that you can. There might be losses. But the most prominent text on the back of the box is They don't expect you to survive. By the time you can access the suicide mission, you can complete it. With casualties? Yes. I'm going to say it again. SUICIDE MISSION.

Because they're not. They're consequences for a choice that the player has no control over.

I will grant they could, for the sake of some players, have a character explicitly state that once you have the device that will allow you to save humanity, you will then use it.

Perhaps they could frame it as a disagreement between the two next highest ranking officers aboard the ship about what you should do with the information that will let you acquire the device. One could advocate retrieving it immediately, while the other would suggest instead building the team to its maximum potential before retrieving it, with the dialog wheel at the end suggesting two distinct and separate alternatives, thus expressing it to anyone not using cut scenes as a chance to zone out without being painfully immersion-breakingly obvious about it. That'd be neat, huh?

If the developers had written the test run to trigger at the player's permission, it could have been avoided entirely.

While true, they elected to force a decision that may have consequences depending on your previous approach to the game. Design choice. Not fault.

[Christmas Ape]

slimgrin wrote...

@Lauren

Your points are being largely missed, as are the op's. You are wasting your time. On these forums, ME2 is either flawless or it sucks. There is no gray.

You assessed the caliber of my response a full eight minutes before I posted it.
Are you a witch?
Or are you just kind of sniping from the sidelines?

[SchaerMann30]

Hm... Only played part of the demo so far, but Lauren, take a nice hard honest look at your life sometime. Can you honestly say you have all the choices you might like, or that you can do the things you might wish without consequences? Or maybe you somehow manage to be prepared for everything that comes your way?

I'm sorry, argument invalid. This wasn't sloppy game design; it was brilliant game design. ME2 thus far is a fairly good mirror of life and the choices therein. There really are choices that black and white, you know, and it really is lose/lose every time; it's also the way life goes. So, while ME2 and DA:O may be linear, so are each of our lives, regardless of the illusion we feed ourselves to the contrary.

So, not trying to sound like a fanboy here; just presenting a counter-argument which I think people should think over. Who knows, it may have validity?

[Christmas Ape]

SchaerMann30 wrote...

Hm... Only played part of the demo so far, but Lauren, take a nice hard honest look at your life sometime. Can you honestly say you have all the choices you might like, or that you can do the things you might wish without consequences? Or maybe you somehow manage to be prepared for everything that comes your way?
I'm sorry, argument invalid. This wasn't sloppy game design; it was brilliant game design. ME2 thus far is a fairly good mirror of life and the choices therein. There really are choices that black and white, you know, and it really is lose/lose every time; it's also the way life goes. So, while ME2 and DA:O may be linear, so are each of our lives, regardless of the illusion we feed ourselves to the contrary.
So, not trying to sound like a fanboy here; just presenting a counter-argument which I think people should think over. Who knows, it may have validity?

Well, that was more philosophical than I expected.

[SchaerMann30]

Hey, who knew reason could exist in a debate, right?

[HTTP 404]

elearon1 wrote...

>>some games put disclaimers up when the plot is forced to move ahead. maybe they need that for mass effect?

You cannot be serious. You want the game to hold your hand and tell you when it is okay to do a mission - why don't we just have it warn you when a fight might be tougher than you expect, or a decision in a dialog tree might not lead to an outcome you like. Hell, let's put a button in the game that cues up the next part of the story at our convenience. I could not be more disappointed in the people complaining about this - maybe, just maybe this will give you a reason for a second playthrough? I ... just .. wow.

I wasnt complaining.  if you read further in my post, I had no problem with it as is. haha wow!  but if some people like you said need hand holding then why not... put it under the easy/casual difficulty. 

[HTTP 404]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I'm seriously not seeing how this is an issue.

you and me both, it really isnt that big of a deal.

[AlanC9]

Christmas Ape wrote...
You assessed the caliber of my response a full eight minutes before I posted it.
[i]Are you a witch?

I guess we'd have to test to see if he's made of wood. Have you got a large set of scales and a duck?