302 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

slimgrin wrote...
This isn't about personal tastes, but whether the progression in the game feels forced or not.

Itals mine. Ye gods. 

[SchaerMann30]

My comment actually applied as much to the OP as it did to Lauren, slimgrin. I think I may have been one of the few to comment on on both the OP and a reply with the same (I believe) valid reply.

Whether it manages to be acceptable remains to be seen, however...

[Onyx Jaguar]

I read the OP, I don't see what Redcliffe has to do with this argument or why this is an issue.



As for game design and story design?



99.5% of Video Game and Stories are more linear than Mass Effect. And I wouldn't hold the likes of Oblivion or Morrowind above it.

[Christmas Ape]

slimgrin wrote...
I read your response, and the first part about game design, which teeters on the brink of weak relativism.

"Not all game design has the same purpose" is "weak relativism"?

This isn't about personal tastes, but whether the progression in the game feels forced or not.

...
<_<
Why don't you try that one again.

To me, its essentially an action game,

Action-RPG. Says so in all the reviews.

a more one dimensional experience than it could be

Still not about personal tastes though, right?

Modifié par Christmas Ape, 27 juin 2010 - 07:42 .

[LaurenIsSoMosh]

Christmas Ape wrote...
"Proper game design" is not one of the secret names of God, merely uttering it does not give you the point of authority.

But I'm not merely uttering it. It has been explained that they're mistakes, and it has been explained why they're mistakes. You're fully entitled to disagree, but to say that I haven't backed up my end of the debate with logic is entirely untrue.

Completely irrelevant, as is your hypothetical movie which shares Dragon Age's problems. As part two of a trilogy, Mass Effect 2's ratio of answer to remaining question is a matter of personal taste.

...

No, it's apparently about them writing the story to fit your preferred concept of the game progression. And they didn't have to ask you. Apparently millions of people liked it fine.

Again, no. I'm not suggesting the developers give the players warning or that the player resort to websites or journals. I'm suggesting the developers avoid locking the door and forcing the player to go through the window.

And fortunately, the game is designed so that you can. There might be losses. But the most prominent text on the back of the box is They don't expect you to survive. By the time you can access the suicide mission, you can complete it. With casualties? Yes. I'm going to say it again. SUICIDE MISSION.

You're focusing too much on the end. The suicide mission is a moot point if the player can't even get that far.

See, in game design, this cryptoterminology, this ghost that probably doesn't exist outside my imagination, Horizon is what's known as a difficulty spike. On higher difficulties, if you are not prepared for that spike, you're screwed. By forcing the player into it, the developers risk breaking the game for the player. But that's just game progression. I'm sure it's no big deal in real life.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Since when was Horizon a difficulty spike, its the Collector Vessel that is the difficulty spike

[AlanC9]

slimgrin wrote...

No, you reducing every argument to a matter of personal taste is. Nothing in the game is done well or poorly, its all a matter of personal preference. 

Dude, you just said that the question is whether it "feels forced." How can how it feels be anything but a matter of personal taste?

[hawat333]

Neotribe wrote...
OP

In Redcliffe, you can abandon the village. Hell yeah, it will have
consequences. What would you expect from an army of undeads? You
politely ask them to wait because you want to finish making three spring traps in Lothering? So you expect a suit-wearing zombie will pop up with a "Talk to me when assaulting the village is okay for you" sign? Events are taking place, you can participate or sit it out.

Consequences. In Mass Effect, it's something else (actually, in a usual playthrough you do delay the Collector Base assault a great deal), but in Dragon Age, you can deny the quest. Which has consequences.
Again, it's the same debate.

Dragon Age is a First Person RPG.
Mass Effect is a Third Person RPG.
In DA we control a character that has much more freedom - we were given a lot of opportunites to stretch it out (and if someone brings up Fallout 3-like sandbox lameness, shoo, thank God, it's not like that). This is becasue the Warden is pre-defined.
Mass Effect on the other hand deals with an already defined character, Commander Shepard, who has his own thoughts, motivations, ideas, plans, we just guide him through the game.
That's a main difference which often goes unnoticed.

And look at the structure of the story. Events are happening in the universe, in Ferelden, etc. You can participate, or you can just sit it out - but in the latter case, there wouldn't be much sense to make a game about it.

[LaurenIsSoMosh]

I attempted Insanity difficulty five times. In the first four, the game broke at Horizon during the boss fights. In my fifth attempt, I only succeeded past that part through exploitation of the mission structure.



The Collector ship is a huge difficulty spike as well, but Horizon is nonetheless a change of pace from the preceding recruitment missions.

[Onyx Jaguar]

LaurenIsSoMosh wrote...

I attempted Insanity difficulty five times. In the first four, the game broke at Horizon during the boss fights. In my fifth attempt, I only succeeded past that part through exploitation of the mission structure.

The Collector ship is a huge difficulty spike as well, but Horizon is nonetheless a change of pace from the preceding recruitment missions.

Who cares about the hardest difficulty.  I had that same problem on every single mission early on on Insanity because it was balanced against your favor.

And yes its a change of pace that is the whole point to break the monotony.

[AlanC9]

LaurenIsSoMosh wrote...
Again, no. I'm not suggesting the developers give the players warning or that the player resort to websites or journals. I'm suggesting the developers avoid locking the door and forcing the player to go through the window.

That's the thing; you haven't given any reason why doors shouldn't sometimes be locked. Edit: You've given me reasons why you don't like having the doors locked. Not the same thing.

See, in game design, this cryptoterminology, this ghost that probably doesn't exist outside my imagination

Just say "good games do X, bad games don't." It's much less pretentious than making declarations about Game Design.

Modifié par AlanC9, 27 juin 2010 - 08:01 .

[AlanC9]

hawat333 wrote...
In Redcliffe, you can abandon the village. Hell yeah, it will have 
consequences. What would you expect from an army of undeads? You
politely ask them to wait because you want to finish making three spring traps in Lothering? So you expect a suit-wearing zombie will pop up with a "Talk to me when assaulting the village is okay for you" sign? Events are taking place, you can participate or sit it out.

If anything, DA didn't go far enough with this. Specifically in the resolution of the Redcliffe quest. The risky decision there turns out not to be risky at all, since it always works out well.

[Bryy_Miller]

It's just lazy writing development, in my opinion

And in reality, you have no idea what you are talking about.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Seriously, it comes and goes so quickly I fail to see how this is an issue. You have no open primary missions when the first one comes around. And when the Collector Vessel comes around it is to break the monotony. Its simple thats all it is.

[AlanC9]

I've read the rest, slimgrin. You've got nothing except personal taste backing any of this up.

If by "forced," you mean that the player is faced with unpleasant choices, then it's forced. You haven't presented any reason why presenting the player with only unpleasant choices is bad design, as opposed to the kind of game you don't personally like,

Modifié par AlanC9, 27 juin 2010 - 08:06 .

[Bryy_Miller]

What really annoys me is that more than one person in this thread is acting like the game design is directly linked to the writers.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Two missions and we are on rails?



There are 0 open main missions when Horizon comes up. You'd do it anyway unless you are obsessed with the N7 missions



The CV mission comes in the middle of a string of missions where if it continued would make the game drag on something fierce without anything happening in the story.

[AlanC9]

slimgrin wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

I've read the rest, slimgrin. You've got nothing except personal taste backing any of this up.

If by "forced," you mean that the player is faced with unpleasant choices, then it's forced. You haven't presented any reason why presenting the player with only unpleasant choices is bad design, as opposed to the kind of game you don't personally like,

How about the term 'on rails' then?

Use whatever term you like. It's the thinking that's bad, not the label.

Sometimes a hero just has to do something, even though he doesn't want to do it at all or just doesn't want to do it right now. It's in the job description and everything.

[LaurenIsSoMosh]

AlanC9 wrote...
That's the thing; you haven't given any reason why doors shouldn't sometimes be locked. Edit: You've given me reasons why you don't like having the doors locked. Not the same thing.

It's the core tenet of game creation. Don't take control away from the player or else you end up with a movie.

Does that really need explanation or detail to justify and separate it from opinion?

Just say "good games do X, bad games don't." It's much less pretentious than making declarations about Game Design.

Normally I do. I was just so surprised that everyone opposed such a simple principle.

[Bryy_Miller]

slimgrin wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

What really annoys me is that more than one person in this thread is acting like the game design is directly linked to the writers.

I would say writing, especially in a game like ME2, falls under the category of design. It dictates how events unfold, how the player progresses, the rate of that progression through the story, etc.

Writers don't decide gameplay. This is what I meant.