302 réponses à ce sujet

[Onyx Jaguar]

LaurenIsSoMosh wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
That's the thing; you haven't given any reason why doors shouldn't sometimes be locked. Edit: You've given me reasons why you don't like having the doors locked. Not the same thing.

It's the core tenet of game creation. Don't take control away from the player or else you end up with a movie.

Does that really need explanation or detail to justify and separate it from opinion?

Just say "good games do X, bad games don't." It's much less pretentious than making declarations about Game Design.

Normally I do. I was just so surprised that everyone opposed such a simple principle.

What does this have to do with the topic at hand.

You have complete control over your characters at all times.  IT seems like you are arguing multiple things at once that are disconnected to each other.

This game is more Half Life than it is Dragons Lair

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 27 juin 2010 - 08:24 .

[AlanC9]

LaurenIsSoMosh wrote...
It's the core tenet of game creation. Don't take control away from the player or else you end up with a movie.

See, you're doing it again. Bioware violated The Core Tenet of Game Creation. Oh noes!

Of course, this "tenet" is pure, unadulterated nonsense. Lots of games have violated this "tenet" in all kinds of ways, to greater or lesser degrees. An adventure game or FPS protagonist has no meaningful choices, just to take a glaring example. Of course, you wouldn't do that in an RPG. But even in RPGs, there are often moments where the player has no meaningful choice except to abandon playing the game. In fact, I'm hard-pressed to think of an RPG that didn't violate your tenet at some point.

And that's why people oppose your principle.

[Bryy_Miller]

Has the OP even done the math here?



The only times you are forced into something:

* Second mission = Freedom's Progress

* Three team members = Horizon

* Three team members/loyalty missions = Collector's Ship

* Two missions after Reaper IFF = Omega-4 Relay



So, out of a 17-20 hour game, you only really have 4 hours forced on you.

[javierabegazo]

LaurenIsSoMosh wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
That's the thing; you haven't given any reason why doors shouldn't sometimes be locked. Edit: You've given me reasons why you don't like having the doors locked. Not the same thing.

It's the core tenet of game creation. Don't take control away from the player or else you end up with a movie.

Sounds like someone missed the memo that the Mass Effect games were always designed with the intention of being a  CINEMATIC  RPG

[LaurenIsSoMosh]

javierabegazo wrote...
Sounds like someone missed the memo that the Mass Effect games were always designed with the intention of being a  CINEMATIC  RPG

The overwhelming majority of games these days are designed to be cinematic.

You can maintain a cinematic feel without removing control.

[smudboy]

1. All narrative is linear.
2. The plot is linear.
3. It is currently impossible to have a narrative be dynamic.

I think what you're really getting at, is, you want to be able to do whatever you want, and not have a forced plot point at any time. Though this is logically impossible, the manner upon which plot points are presented and how one instigates them, could be a mere console/communication device away; where the player chooses to press that "on screen", "reply" or "open communication" button, in regards to Going to Talk to TIM.

Modifié par smudboy, 27 juin 2010 - 08:53 .

[Ghost_360]

How about we just enjoy the game and quit taking everything so seriously.

[wizardryforever]

slimgrin wrote...

smudboy wrote...

1. All narrative is linear.
2. The plot is linear.
3. It is currently impossible to have a narrative be dynamic.

I think what you're really getting at, is, you want to be able to do whatever you want, and not have a forced plot point at any time. Though this is logically impossible, the manner upon which plot points are presented and how one instigates them, could be a mere console/communication device away; where the player chooses to press that "on screen", "reply" or "open communication" button, in regards to Going to Talk to TIM.

Someone call CD Projekt red and tell them that making a nonlinear RPG storyline for The Witcher 2 is impossible.

The whole choice thing (or lack of it) wouldn't be such a sticking point for me if Bioware hadn't played it up so much prior to the games release. 

What choice are you referring to?  Not being able to put the fate of the galaxy off for a few days as you do some shopping?  Or not having your choices matter in this game?  If you're going to play a story-based RPG, you're going to have to deal with the story as it plays out, not at your leisure.  As for choices mattering, I fully expect to see every big choice that was made in both ME1 and ME2 to have an effect on ME3's storyline.  They really can't be expected to show the consequences of your actions all that much at this point of the story, that's the point of the third part of the trilogy.

Smudboy actually has a point here, in that it is difficult to impossible to make a narrative that is not linear in some fashion, and I think that Bioware made a good attempt with ME2.  Given that after the prologue only three events are forced on you, out of over a dozen missions, I fail to see how people call this too linear.  You can even do most of the recruitment and loyalty missions in whatever order you choose, with some of them being completely unnecessary.  And really, if there was no linearity, people would be complaining that there was no urgency to the plot, like they did with ME1.  The whole "race against time" concept doesn't mean much if you can take your sweet time to move the story along.

[Zulu_DFA]

Expressing my full support of the OP.

Non linear plot is bound to create time paradoxes, but the way some missions are forced on the player in the middle of this non-linear gameplay is a perfect way to shove these paradoxes down the player's throat. I am talking the Collector Ship mission triggering in the middle of the visit to Illium.

The necessity of doing all four original recruitment missions before Horizon is triggered is quite annoying too.

And self-triggering of the Repaer IFF test is just ridicoulous. I've thought it's me who runs the Normandy, under the wise guidance of the Illusive Man. But now I see that Joker and EDI can do whatever they like whenever they like.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 27 juin 2010 - 09:40 .

[biomag]

Neotribe wrote...

Part of what makes an RPG an RPG usually involves not being led around by the nose, or straitjacketed in a linear narrative progression.  I think we can all agree that ME2 is a lot weaker than ME1 in that regard.

But, for heavens sake, please stop with the Redcliffe-style forced mission cop-outs. There is nothing more obnoxious in ME2 (so far) than having control taken out of my hands be being plunked into a meeting with the Illusive Man (and boy is that pun getting old)  and then forced to go on a mission I haven't selected w/no option to delay (or in DA to decline w/o severe negative consequences.)

Also, although I haven't completed the loyalty missions  yet or even made much of a dent int he sidequests, I've already been offered the Reaper IFF assignment --without any warning that once I complete it I won't be able to wait too long before Omega4.

Yes, I've become paranoid enough about Bioware's hidden & forced plot triggers that I went and spoiled ME2 for myself, to make sure I wouldn't compromise my first playthrough. Regrettably it proved neccessary and thus wise, and I'm glad I did.

Stop doing this, Bioware. It's getting worse in every game.

One of those post I can't agree the slightest bit. I can just hope Bioware ignores such BS completely. That's the part I liked most about ME 2 as I hated "Virmire - The Distress Call That Waits For You while you play Errand-boy".


So once more - like most of the whining about ME 2 being worse than ME 1 - I can't agree and I don't miss all those faults that ME 1 had (claiming that they are the "RPG-part").

[Zulu_DFA]

biomag wrote...
I hated "Virmire - The Distress Call That Waits For You while you play Errand-boy".

This is a valid point, but coming to Illium, knowing that both Samara and Thane Have been there awhile, then recruiting Thane, then being forced to go across half a galaxy after the Collector vessel (that is supposedly disabled and not going anywhere), then return to Illium and know that Samara hasn't still finished her business  there is eqaully ridiculous.

[wizardryforever]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

biomag wrote...
I hated "Virmire - The Distress Call That Waits For You while you play Errand-boy".

This is a valid point, but coming to Illium, knowing that both Samara and Thane Have been there awhile, then recruiting Thane, then being forced to go across half a galaxy after the Collector vessel (that is supposedly disabled and not going anywhere), then return to Illium and know that Samara hasn't still finished her business  there is eqaully ridiculous.

That's just a quirk that happens if you do missions in a certain order.  All you need to do is change the order you do the missions in, if that kind of thing bothers you.  The Collector ship mission triggers after a certain number of missions, regardless of where you are.  The thing you describe only happens because you get sent back to the Normandy after a recruitment mission.  But it doesn't if it's a loyalty mission.  That's the part that seems stupid, not when it triggers.  If it didn't take you back to the Normandy after a recruitment mission (when you can remain on the hub world) this wouldn't be an issue.  But you can't really expect TIM to just sit on information like that, especially since he tells you that the Turians may come and investigate it, so you need to get there first.  You don't find out that he lied to you until you're on the ship.  If anything, you should blame the whole Collector ship mission on TIM.

[AdamNW]

Christmas Ape wrote...

EDIT: however I do agree with him on the unexplained and downright terribly written "mission" everyone HAS to go on...even if you've DONE EVERYTHING..just before the collectors take your crew. You can't defend that abortion of good writing.

Oh, the shuttle ride to nowhere?

Actually, it's the next sidequest you would have done/hubworld you would have visited.

[AdamNW]

LaurenIsSoMosh wrote...

And even if you stick by your arguments that Horizon and the Collector ship cannot be made to wait, the IFF mission and the IFF test run are two individual events, yet they are categorized as one and the same. Why can't I do the IFF mission as soon as it's made available but still put off the test run? Lives aren't at stake with that, but I still have no choice but to get in my combat cockroach and watch the end game begin. The majority of the loyalty missions take place around the IFF mission. BioWare put crap loads of emphasis on the consequences of attempting the suicide mission without a loyal squad, and yet they're the ones running you through the cattle gates with little choice or prior warning.

You do realize that there isn't any logical reason to put off the test run, right?

[AdamNW]

...I know I'm posting a lot, and posting these probably after the arguments are done, but I'm countering these as I'm reading them.

LaurenIsSoMosh wrote...

Because they're not. They're consequences for a choice that the player has no control over.

If the developers had written the test run to trigger at the player's permission, it could have been avoided entirely.

1) The concept of time means nothing to you, it seems.

2) Again, what logical reason is there to delay a test run?  Unless you knew beforehand that the Collectors had poisoned the IFF, there isn't one.

Modifié par AdamNW, 27 juin 2010 - 11:22 .

[AdamNW]

hawat333 wrote...

Neotribe wrote...
OP

In Redcliffe, you can abandon the village. Hell yeah, it will have
consequences. What would you expect from an army of undeads? You
politely ask them to wait because you want to finish making three spring traps in Lothering? So you expect a suit-wearing zombie will pop up with a "Talk to me when assaulting the village is okay for you" sign? Events are taking place, you can participate or sit it out.

I think he was referring to when you have to protect Redcliffe the second time, because that triggers epilogue.

Modifié par AdamNW, 27 juin 2010 - 11:28 .

[biomag]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

biomag wrote...
I hated "Virmire - The Distress Call That Waits For You while you play Errand-boy".

This is a valid point, but coming to Illium, knowing that both Samara and Thane Have been there awhile, then recruiting Thane, then being forced to go across half a galaxy after the Collector vessel (that is supposedly disabled and not going anywhere), then return to Illium and know that Samara hasn't still finished her business  there is eqaully ridiculous.

...you know what? It never happened to me... Virmire on the other hand happened every time except for the first time, were me idiot thought its really urgent...


To be honest I am more pissed about the N7 mission where you save a falling ship than by such triggers. Its just a small sidequest that I always to at the end, but that ship must be sending their distress call for more than a month being pointed out at my galaxy map... actually it looks like its only doomed when I get close... epic hero shepard rocks, dude!

[AdamNW]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Non linear plot is bound to create time paradoxes, but the way some missions are forced on the player in the middle of this non-linear gameplay is a perfect way to shove these paradoxes down the player's throat. I am talking the Collector Ship mission triggering in the middle of the visit to Illium.

Let's just forget for a moment that both recruitment missions conclude on the Normandy.  Let's just forget that you can do both Thane and Samara's recruitment missions before the CV (And not get Tali, but that's a terrible trade in my opinion )

The necessity of doing all four original recruitment missions before Horizon is triggered is quite annoying too.

Quite the conradiction.

And self-triggering of the Repaer IFF test is just ridicoulous.

Because not testing it is is completely logical, right?

[Ooga600]

It isn't a big deal if you lose some squadmates or the crew. Mine all survived first playthrough, but i got lucky. Second playthrough I did the same things as renegade, and I lost some guys. It's a suicide mission. Accept it.

Modifié par Ooga600, 28 juin 2010 - 01:12 .

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Christmas Ape wrote...
I rather like the feeling that the plot also some times moves of its own accord, rather than sitting around waiting for the hero to show up. Feels more authentic. Your mileage, it appears, may vary.

Yer, it's something I really don't mind. It's about creating urgency / progress without necessarily letting the player be "ready" when they get there. That's a tool that will be experiemented with.

[Tooneyman]

javierabegazo wrote...

LaurenIsSoMosh wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
That's the thing; you haven't given any reason why doors shouldn't sometimes be locked. Edit: You've given me reasons why you don't like having the doors locked. Not the same thing.

It's the core tenet of game creation. Don't take control away from the player or else you end up with a movie.

Sounds like someone missed the memo that the Mass Effect games were always designed with the intention of being a  CINEMATIC  RPG

^this!