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[Ecael]

This thread is yet another shining example of why BioWare listens to professional critics instead of its "fans". All of the arguments put forth in this thread essentially nullify each other. Why? Because BioWare gave its players every single quest structure possible and people still manage to complain about all of them.

1. Pure linear structure

Mass Effect 1: Eden Prime to Citadel, Ilos to Citadel

Mass Effect 2: Lazarus Project to Freedom's Progress, past Omega-4 Relay

Dragon Age: Origin Story/Ostagar to Lothering, March on Burning Denerim to Archdemon

Resulting complaints:

• This is purely linear! I want choices!
• I feel like I'm in a movie without control!

...So BioWare moves on to the next one.

2. Open-ended to linear

Mass Effect 1: Feros, Noveria, Therum, Virmire are all required, but can be done in almost any order, filtering into Ilos (linear)

Mass Effect 2: Jack, Grunt, Garrus, Mordin recruit missions are all required, but can be done in almost any order, filtering into Horizon (linear), Disabled Collector Vessel

Dragon Age: Lothering, Orzammar, Brecilian Forest, Circle Tower are all required, but can be done in almost any order, eventually filtering into the Landsmeet (linear)

Resulting complaints:

• This is illusion of choice!
• We all end up in the same place!
• Let us choose which quest we really want next!

...So BioWare moves on to the next one.

3. Open-ended, latent consequences

Mass Effect 1: Every major plot flag promised to carry over into the next game, Wrex death without knowing Paragon/Renegade requirement or doing loyalty quest, losing the ability to gain a quest because it was only available before # number of main missions

Mass Effect 2: Every major plot flag promised to carry over into the next game, delaying before Omega-4 relay, losing the ability to gain a quest due to dead NPC from Mass Effect 1, specialist choices made at Collector Base

Dragon Age: First Battle of Redcliffe (leaving destroys the town), Lothering destroyed (before all quests are completed), losing the ability to gain a quest or item due to dead NPC

Resulting complaints:

• Why didn't you tell us this would be the consequence?
• You're forcing us to look in a walkthrough in order to control the game!
• Let us know what the consequences are! I don't see any!

...So BioWare moves on to the next one.

4. Open-ended, consequences blatant

Mass Effect 1: Kaidan/Ashley Virmire choice, choosing to kill Wrex, losing the ability to gain a quest in Mass Effect 2 due to dead NPC

Mass Effect 2: Optional loyalty missions and resulting final mission deaths (and ship upgrades)

Dragon Age: Major plot flags (Templars/Mages, Werewolves/Elves, etc.) and their "effect" on the army march cutscenes and text-based epilogue

Resulting complaints:

• These choices are too easy! Why did you dumb down the game by telling us what would happen next?
• This consequence is unfair! Why does everyone else get an advantage because I intentionally chose against the best option?
• What's the point of control when everyone ends up in the same place?

...So BioWare moves on to the next one.

5. Open-ended, no consequences

Mass Effect 1: UNC Side Missions, hub world side missions, DLC, Romances, every plot flag not carried over or insignificantly represented in Mass Effect 2, elevator news reports

Mass Effect 2: N7 Side Missions, hub world side missions, DLC, Romances, choosing to do the Reaper IFF mission, e-mails, news reports

Dragon Age: Character and hub world side missions, DLC, Romances, every plot flag not carried over or insignificantly represented in Awakening

Resulting complaints:

• Why didn't this choice have any real consequence? Give us real consequences BioWare!
• This mission/choice has no relation to the main plot! PLOT HOLE!
• This doesn't fit in the story timeline! PLOT HOLE!
• This doesn't make sense compared to the actual story! PLOT HOLE!

...So BioWare moves on to the next and final option.

6. Open-ended, consequences result in unlocking other open-ended choices (limited open-ended)

Mass Effect 1: Virmire unlocking, other planets unlocking once a specific side mission is completed

Mass Effect 2: Two hub worlds, three recruits and loyalties unlocking after Horizon, other planets unlocking once a specific side mission is completed

Dragon Age: Haven unlocking, Denerim Alienage unlocking, quest chains (ex: Back Alley Justice) unlocking new areas on the city map or world map

Resulting complaint:

• Wahhh! This isn't really open-ended at all! You might as well give us a linear storyline since the choices don't matter!

Start back at (1), and repeat.

Lose-lose-lose-lose-lose-lose situation for BioWare if they bothered to listen to the armchair critics here.

... And there is no picture I can 'shop that can accurately describe the amount of circuitous fail on this forum.

Modifié par Ecael, 28 juin 2010 - 02:05 .

[wizardryforever]

Pretty much, Ecael.  People love to complain, and Bioware can't please everyone.  Some people seem to be truly unpleasable (like a certain Turian councilor), and would find fault simply because they can, because it isn't absolutely perfect in every way.  Nothing ever can be perfect, but that doesn't stop the complaints, now does it?

[Nightwriter]

Perhaps it doesn't matter, but these forced missions did not bother me because they were forced necessarily.

It's because they happened quickly and I didn't feel on board (mentally) with the reasons for going there. This was a feeling that started early in the game beginning with my first talk with TIM and Shepard's decision to help Cerberus.

It felt very rushed, and a bit unclear at times. I sometimes wished the game would stop and slow down a bit so certain things could be discussed. I felt like I was rushing through mission after mission based on inertia alone.

[Ecael]

slimgrin wrote...

Ecael, you can itemize this sh*t all you want.

So even when I point out that you're complaining for something that you would continue to complain about, I'm itemizing?

Other games, like The Witcher, still do divergent plot threads much better. They give you actual choice, not the illusion of it. And most of all, it is a game that doesn't hold your hand, like ME2 does.

That falls within the category of Open-ended, major latent consequences. The result?

Resulting complaints:

• Why didn't you tell us this would be the consequence?
• You're forcing us to look in a walkthrough in order to control the game!
• Why am I missing content just because I made this choice?
• Why did I epic fail the game just because I made this choice? This is unfair!

...And the complaints continue.

[didymos1120]

biomag wrote...
To be honest I am more pissed about the N7 mission where you save a falling ship than by such triggers. Its just a small sidequest that I always to at the end, but that ship must be sending their distress call for more than a month being pointed out at my galaxy map... actually it looks like its only doomed when I get close... epic hero shepard rocks, dude!

Well then, just skip the Pylos star chart until you're actually ready to do that assignment.  You can then pretend you went for a quick look and the alert came in.

[Zulu_DFA]

slimgrin wrote...
I'm not complaining, I'm being critical - a foreign concept on these forums. 

You mean you are a Frenchy whiner, don't you?

[Nightwriter]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Didn't they force Horizon and the Collector Ship missions because of the Xbox limitations?  Or is that strickly just the squad recruitment order?

I really have no idea. I was under the impression it was because of the recruitment order though. That they wanted to dice up the recruits into smaller groups of threes and fours.

[Zulu_DFA]

Wow, it's been a long time since my last double post!

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 28 juin 2010 - 02:46 .

[Zulu_DFA]

slimgrin wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

slimgrin wrote...
I'm not complaining, I'm being critical - a foreign concept on these forums. 

You mean you are a Frenchy whiner, don't you?

classy. Like those shades. 

[Takes off the shades for a moment]



See my twitching eye? It's a conspiracy wink. I just can't help being sacrastic all the time since ME2 release.

[Puts the shades back on]

[Ecael]

slimgrin wrote...

Those complaints would be from people who: can't read, and can't think for themselves. Something Bioware clearly took to heart for ME2.

Fine, you guys want the game to do all the work, more power to you. I want a game that provides challenge and depth and doesn't treat me like I'm missing half my brain. No doubt, such a game would be less popular. 

You make it sound like some of the whining on this forum requires literacy and independent thought, when everyone is simply echoing the same complaints over and over again.

I'm sure you think your own whining is "constructive criticism", even though your demands are as vague as a political advertisement.

I want a game that provides challenge and depth and doesn't treat me like I'm missing half my brain.

"If I'm elected, I will increase jobs, boost the economy, decrease corruption, and be more like [insert former political icon here]"

Of course they'll say that. How many people want a candidate that says that they will promote unemployment, corruption and economic instability? Those ads are far too short to explain how they'll actually do that.

Many of the complaints on the forum are just like yours - vague and useless.

You want a game that doesn't treat you like you're missing half your brain? Then stop complaining like you're missing half of it and stop accusing BioWare that they're missing any of it.

Until then, BioWare will continue to listen to professional critics, like they always have.

[Nightwriter]

Guys, I feel like some games have forced missions where you really don't mind them and some games have forced missions where you do.

It's really just down to how well they do it.

In ME2 I felt like they didn't do it so well, just because of the setup.

"Hello, you just woke up, you've been dead for two years, you're working with me now, go to this colony."

- "Okay."

"Something's killing everybody. It's beyond this relay. Get a team and attack it. Here are some recruits. Go get them."

- "Okay."

"Go to this derelict ship. Now."

- "Okay."

"Go to this derelict ship. Now."

- "Okay".

Like that.

I should point out that I wouldn't have minded any of those commands so much if the summation of my response to each of them wasn't "okay". That's the difference between my feeling like I'm walking a path on my own, even if that is the only path I may take, and feeling like I'm standing on a conveyor belt that is moving me through the missions on its own.

[smudboy]

And here we go into the Ecael "it's whining; you're useless" rant, because someone is simply voicing their opinion.

Please continue. This irrefutable logic. The absolutist attitude. The PSDs. Oh, how can they and their ideas.

[Ecael]

smudboy wrote...

And here we go into the Ecael "it's whining; you're useless" rant, because someone is simply voicing their opinion.
Please continue. This irrefutable logic. The absolutist attitude. The PSDs. Oh, how can they and their ideas.

Your opinion is invalid when it's too vague to obtain any useful information from it or it contradicts itself.

"Voicing an opinion" doesn't cut it anymore, especially on the internets.

slimgrin wrote...

You are linking my video game criticism to politics? Weak. I've listed specific examples in this thread, so have other posters. Maybe you haven't read them; but again, that takes effort, doesn't it? 

And I've listed practically every mission and plot flag in three different BioWare games in my post and the complaints people throw at it, and you just dismissed it with a single expletive.

So much for reading, huh?

[Urazz]

Ecael wrote...

smudboy wrote...

And here we go into the Ecael "it's whining; you're useless" rant, because someone is simply voicing their opinion.
Please continue. This irrefutable logic. The absolutist attitude. The PSDs. Oh, how can they and their ideas.

Your opinion is invalid when it's too vague to obtain any useful information from it or it contradicts itself.

"Voicing an opinion" doesn't cut it anymore, especially on the internets.

slimgrin wrote...

You are linking my video game criticism to politics? Weak. I've listed specific examples in this thread, so have other posters. Maybe you haven't read them; but again, that takes effort, doesn't it? 

And I've listed practically every mission and plot flag in three different BioWare games in my post and the complaints people throw at it, and you just dismissed it with a single expletive.

So much for reading, huh?

Agreed!  Though there are some fairly decent complaints that are well explained, the vast majority of them are fairly vague.

[Zulu_DFA]

slimgrin wrote...

You are linking my video game criticism to politics? Weak. I've listed specific examples in this thread, so have other posters. Maybe you haven't read them; but again, that takes effort  doesn't it? 

You can't accuse Ecael of shunning the effort! Her accomplisments are greater than anyone else's. She likes the "2" so much and that's everyone's right. As well as everyone's right is to write anything on these boards until banned...

slimgrin wrote...

Ecael wrote...




[*]Why didn't you tell us this would be the consequence?



[*]You're forcing us to look in a walkthrough in order to control the game!



[*]Why am I missing content just because I made this choice?



[*]Why did I epic fail the game just because I made this choice? This is unfair![/list][/b]
...And the complaints continue.

Those complaints would be from people who: can't read, and can't think for themselves. Something Bioware clearly took to heart for ME2.

There is a word for that kind of people. "Kids" is that word.

It just seems ME1 was aimed at the 20-30 year old audience as primary target, and ME2 targets 12-20 year olds...  Does it make ME2 a worse game than ME1? No.

Oh, crap, I just shot myself in the foot.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 28 juin 2010 - 03:11 .

[Nightwriter]

slimgrin wrote...

Conveyor belt just about sums it up. 

Thank you.

Is that me really complaining, Ecael? Am I complainer?

C-cuz if you think so, just say it to my face.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 28 juin 2010 - 03:10 .

[Ecael]

Nightwriter wrote...

Thank you.

Is that me really complaining, Ecael? Am I complainer?

C-cuz if you think so, just say it to my face.

Done.

slimgrin wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Guys, I feel like some games have forced missions where you really don't mind them and some games have forced missions where you do.

It's really just down to how well they do it.

In ME2 I felt like they didn't do it so well, just because of the setup.

"Hello, you just woke up, you've been dead for two years, you're working with me now, go to this colony."

- "Okay."

"Something's killing everybody. It's beyond this relay. Get a team and attack it. Here are some recruits. Go get them."

- "Okay."

"Go to this derelict ship. Now."

- "Okay."

"Go to this derelict ship. Now."

- "Okay".

Like that.

I should point out that I wouldn't have minded any of those commands so much if the summation of my response to each of them wasn't "okay". That's the difference between my feeling like I'm walking a path on my own, even if that is the only path I may take, and feeling like I'm standing on a conveyor belt that is moving me through the missions on its own.

Conveyor belt just about sums it up.

"Hello, you're an Alliance Soldier, go check out this colony"

-"I get the feeling there's something you're not tel- okay."

"Saren's killing everybody. Find some evidence (Tali) to prove he's gone rogue and chase him across the galaxy.

- "Okay."

"You're a Spectre now. Here, have the Normandy SR-1."

- "Okay."

"You have to recruit Liara, she is the key to everything."

-"Okay."

"We can't get past these defense towers, you'll have to complete the entire Virmire mission."

-"Okay."

"You've completed all your missions, come back to the Citadel."

-"I want to be at the head of that fl- Okay."

"We have to sneak you out of here, we can't just wait around!"

-"Okay."

"Will we find Saren in time? I hope you know what yo-"

-"Okay."

"Get to the Conduit before it closes. Now."

-"Okay."

Dragon Age

"You're a person of humble origins. Become a Grey Warden. Now."

-"Okay."

"Here, light this torch at the tower in Ostagar."

-"Okay."

"Go to Lothering with Morrigan."

-"Okay."

"You tried to kidnap Queen Anora. Go directly to jail or the Landsmeet."

-"Okay."

"You just came from Redcliffe, but now you have to go back to Redcliffe to talk to Arl Eamon."

-"Okay."

"Denerim is under attack! You just came from Denerim, but now you have to go back to Denerim to save the city."

-"Okay."

"As a Grey Warden myself, I can also make the sacrifice to the Archdemon as long as I'm ali-"
*Riordan jumps on the Archdemon and dies trying to wound it*

-"...Okay?"

Welcome to video games, another conveyor belt of entertainment.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

There is a word for that kind of people. "Kids" is that word.

It
just seems ME1 was aimed at the 20-30 year old audience as primary
target, and ME2 targets 12-20 year olds...  Does it make ME2 a worse
game than ME1? No.

Oh, crap, I just shot myself in the foot.

So the romantic sex scenes were aimed at the 20-30 year old audience? Or was it the non-stop shooter combat?

[phatpat63]

Neotribe wrote...

It's just lazy writing development, in my opinion, and really detracts from the experience.

Word. Taking control from the player and constructing choices for them that are ambiguous or unclear that they even are choices to facilitate the plot of the game is just bad design. The way squadmate death and survival in the final mission can seem completely arbitrary is another perfect example. Mass 1 was far superior in that respect. When you were confronted with a choice that would have serious consequences you always knew you were making a choice and had some idea of what the consequences might be, and you had to make it with all that haning over your head. It was one of those things that made the game so much more impactful.