81 réponses à ce sujet

[Bahlgan]

soteria wrote...

^^ I'd "QFT" but I'm too lazy.

Bahlgan, even if I agreed that 0.5 stamina regen was laughable (and I don't, at all), it still comes on an item with the equivalent of five whole levels' investment in willpower on it.

So are you saying, essentially, that stamina regeneration numbers are not necessarily calculated to fit the mana regeneration numbers? I don't really know anything about that particular stat.

Well, either way, based on public opinion (even though some are quite half-assed) I will place no more points into Willpower. Any takers on point distribution? I think I shall place the next 6 or 7 levels (starting on Awakening) into strength, and one level each for constitution, cunning, and dexterity.

 If you're paying attention, that's almost 1/4 of the game.

Not counting tomes and outside points, just basic level up points, It's above 1/4, and closer to 1/3 

Magic makes all your poultices, salves, grenades and and coatings super-powered when you use them -- which again, directly contributes to the damage you can do. Also interesting to note, for you Stamina-centric people, . A high magic score makes the stamina pots in Awakening more effective

I am sorry, but I build my warriors to use as little salves and poultices as possible. Magic is meant to stay BASE for all warriors if it doesn't help any of his physical prowess. I suppose "wasting" my points into Willpower for a 20 second skill that does decent damage as well as great crowd control is dumber than wasting a warrior's physical peak on potions and salves. Save them for those who do not have the defense.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 02 juillet 2010 - 04:47 .

[Elhanan]

There's nothing wrong with doing that if that's what you enjoy, but if we're having a discussion about how valuable willpower is compared to other stats.... well. To be honest, I don't build pure-magic mages or whatever myself, but if someone asks where to put their stats, I'm not going to advise them to do something I only do for flavor.

Neither do I.

I find Willpower effective at keeping Mana/Stamina available the majority of the time, even in Massive armors. When I am able to get the same gear others rely upon for all STR builds, I have a vast storehouse for using spells, talents, etc.

I prefer versatility.

Modifié par Elhanan, 02 juillet 2010 - 06:22 .

[Yrkoon]

Bahlgan wrote...

soteria wrote...

^^ I'd "QFT" but I'm too lazy.

Bahlgan, even if I agreed that 0.5 stamina regen was laughable (and I don't, at all), it still comes on an item with the equivalent of five whole levels' investment in willpower on it.

So are you saying, essentially, that stamina regeneration numbers are not necessarily calculated to fit the mana regeneration numbers? I don't really know anything about that particular stat.

What?    Mana regeneration wasn't mentioned at all.  All  soteria  said was that +.5 stamina regeneration isn't a "laughable" quality on the Chasind Great Maul.  And it isn't.     It's an increased stamina regeneration rate bonus.  Period.  And it happens to come on a weapon that  also bestows +75 stamina.

Bahlgan wrote...
Well, either way, based on public opinion (even though some are quite half-assed) I will place no more points into Willpower. Any takers on point distribution?

 Point Distribution:    3 Str.  per level up.  (for 2-handers)

Bahlgan wrote...

Magic makes all your poultices, salves, grenades and and coatings super-powered when you use them -- which again, directly contributes to the damage you can do. Also interesting to note, for you Stamina-centric people, . A high magic score makes the stamina pots in Awakening more effective

I am sorry, but I build my warriors to use as little salves and poultices as possible. Magic is meant to stay BASE for all warriors if it doesn't help any of his physical prowess. I suppose "wasting" my points into Willpower for a 20 second skill that does decent damage as well as great crowd control is dumber than wasting a warrior's physical peak on potions and salves. Save them for those who do not have the defense.

Aah, missing the point, now, for the sake of keeping this silly thread alive with discussion,  I see.

Am I advocating that anyone litter their two-hander with points in magic, or  the use of poultices here?  Nope.  Anyone with basic reading comprehension can clearly  see the conversation I was having with Elhanan and realize that I was merely reiterating the point that even Magic  is more useful  than Willpower.


And by the way, neither Holy Smite nor Fade Burst are "20 second skills".  Holy Smite has a 40 second cool down, and Fade Burst has a 30 second cooldown.     And while we're on the subject of salves, a single  soulrot  bomb does more damage than either of  them.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 02 juillet 2010 - 07:43 .

[Elhanan]

Based on numerous threads and posts, comparing Attributes can often come down to a subjective choice. If the goal is to make the hardest heavy hitter with a 2H, perhaps pure STR is the way to go. I choose another path.

My criteria is different; prefer to do more, and in different ways than other players. Some prefer to choose Poison skills and toss grenades. Others may choose Survival for the inate buffs. Varied goals will often have different choices.

One thing is certain: there are many ways to build effective builds in this game if the weakest Attribute can make suitable characters for others.

[Bahlgan]

Elhanan wrote...

Based on numerous threads and posts, comparing Attributes can often come down to a subjective choice. If the goal is to make the hardest heavy hitter with a 2H, perhaps pure STR is the way to go. I choose another path.
My criteria is different; prefer to do more, and in different ways than other players. Some prefer to choose Poison skills and toss grenades. Others may choose Survival for the inate buffs. Varied goals will often have different choices.
One thing is certain: there are many ways to build effective builds in this game if the weakest Attribute can make suitable characters for others.

Not necessarily going to say that Willpower is a useless attribute, but I agree with you. 

I believe, just as you do, that there is always more than one way to make a powerful character other than just merely following the cookie cutter build with a certain fighter. I have not problem with people and their choice in how to build a warrior. The only problem I have with others and their opinions is like someone else's (Yrkoon) personal attacks when they are added to a thread to enforce their belief in kicking others for merely stating their opinion. 

[Jestina]

Just starting a 2H myself and I think i'm just going to be pouring all points into strength...and just enough cunning for coercion.



After i've gotten some better gear and stuff, i'll see if I have enough to maintain sustainable talents.



Definitely having to spam talents like crazy...especially pommel strike early on. I did manage to go toe to toe with a Hurlock Alpha and won so I guess i'm doing it right starting out.

[Bahlgan]

Aah, missing the point, now, for the sake of keeping this silly thread alive with discussion, I see.

There is nothing silly about this thread except for your troll posts beyond the point of all the information already being obtained. It's one thing to contribute to a thread with an honest opinion about how useful or useless willpower really is, and trust me I consider everything that anyone has to say as long as it is constructive, but nothing you have ever said gives you any merit. In fact, you have pretty much killed this thread. It was originally meant to be used to gather information, but thanks to you, people are being driven away. Hah! Go figure!

Am I advocating that anyone litter their two-hander with points in magic, or the use of poultices here? Nope. Anyone with basic reading comprehension can clearly see the conversation I was having with Elhanan and realize that I was merely reiterating the point that even Magic is more useful than Willpower.

Way to go in avoiding my post and contradicting your own statement, by the way. It's like talking to a water wheel, or so Zevran stated once to Sten. As for your reading comprehension comment, I believe you need to consider how stupid you sound when saying biased **** like willpower being a dumber choice to make than having your warrior depend on potions and bombs, because that's all magic does for warriors. I will take the stamina increase and mental resistance, as well as my templar skills increase over that anytime thank you very much.

And by the way, neither Holy Smite nor Fade Burst are "20 second skills". Holy Smite has a 40 second cool down, and Fade Burst has a 30 second cooldown. And while we're on the subject of salves, a single soulrot bomb does more damage than either of them.

This is probably the most non biased comment I have read from you ever, that's a first. But still overall I can no longer take you seriously. Damage is not the only factor, as you keep enforcing, that a warrior can make use out of. While yes, the soulrot bomb does more damage, the holy smite attack can knock down enemies, making Templars excellent spell interrupters. Not to mention the range of a soulrot bomb is just horrible compared to the holy smite. Sometimes, utility makes an awesome attribute for a warrior.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 02 juillet 2010 - 11:18 .

[beancounter501]

Despite my characters very horrible Willpower scores on my warriors - Holy Smite seems to almost always get Mages and even archers in the stun/knockdown. And magic or cunning on a warrior - ehh. That is probably a worse choice the Willpower.

Still Willpower is weak because of Deathblow for warriors and Mana Pots for Mages. Rogues mostly auto attack. It is the weakest stat overall because it is not needed by any of three major classes.

Modifié par beancounter501, 03 juillet 2010 - 12:19 .

[Yrkoon]

Bahlgan wrote...
you have pretty much killed this thread. It was originally meant to be used to gather information, but thanks to you, people are being driven away. Hah! Go figure!

Oh, Quit whining.

 This thread was dead  until   *I* came in and charged it back up.  Scroll back to page 1 and see for yourself.  Even YOU were complaining that no one  seemed to have anything more to say.

Bahlgan wrote...

 I believe you need to consider how stupid you sound when saying biased **** like willpower being a dumber choice to make than having your warrior depend on potions and bombs, because that's all magic does for warriors.

Really?     That's all it does for warriors?  So it is your "more educated" belief that magic doesn't, for example,  also increase  a warrior's mental resistance?

I have a  couple of quick questions.  How many times do we have to come on here and correct you on what the various attributes do in Dragon age?  How are we supposed to engage in the intelligent   info-sharing  build discussion you say you're seeking, if we have to  stop the discussion every few minutes to correct you on the basics of  the game's  mechanics?

Bahlgan wrote...
While yes, the soulrot bomb does more damage, the holy smite attack can knock down enemies, making Templars excellent spell interrupters. Not to mention the range of a soulrot bomb is just horrible compared to the holy smite. Sometimes, utility makes an awesome attribute for a warrior.

 What in the world are you talking about?

First off,    All of the  bombs in this game  have a MUCH larger range than Holy Smite.  Perhaps you mean Area of Effect?  Second,  Soulrot bombs  don't just do more damage than Holy Smite, they do *A LOT* more damage than Holy Smite.  80 points of damage to be exact, compared to about 20-30 for  Holy Smite.  Also,  unlike  Soulrot bombs,  Holy Smite costs 70 stamina to activate.  Of course,  I personally don't care about that, but I seem to recall debating with some guy on this thread who treasures his willpower-based stamina pool and  thus would probably see this as an important distinction.... from a utility perspective,  that is.  (70 stamina... that's about 14 points of willpower if you're keeping count).

Oh, one more thing...

Bahlgan wrote...
nothing you have ever said gives you any merit.

Bahlgan wrote...
It's like talking to a water wheel

Bahlgan wrote...
I believe you need to consider how stupid you sound

^lol  Wow, and he has the arrogant audacity to accuse ANYONE else here of trolling.  I'll tell you what.  I'm going to continue on as I have, and see  where this goes.  If it keeps up,   I'm fairly certain it's  you  who's gonna end up  facing down a moderator, not me.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 03 juillet 2010 - 03:55 .

[Elhanan]

beancounter501 wrote...

Despite my characters very horrible Willpower scores on my warriors - Holy Smite seems to almost always get Mages and even archers in the stun/knockdown. And magic or cunning on a warrior - ehh. That is probably a worse choice the Willpower.

Still Willpower is weak because of Deathblow for warriors and Mana Pots for Mages. Rogues mostly auto attack. It is the weakest stat overall because it is not needed by any of three major classes.

Deathblow can take longer to get if one  has a prioity on the weapon talents, while Willpower is available at every lvl. And for the Warden mage, I try to avoid becoming reliant on consumables, as I do not recall ever delving into crafting them; not even for gold. And while my Rogues may be more effective on auto-attacks in melee, most of my Rogues are archers, and I dislike watching ato-attack routines (which is a personal weakness with the AW, IMO).

Again, Willpower may not be as strong for everyone due to personal goals. But I am pleased with the few builds I have used with Willpower being a secondary ability.

[Bahlgan]

Yrkoon wrote...

Oh, Quit whining.

 This thread was dead  until   *I* came in and charged it back up.  Scroll back to page 1 and see for yourself.  Even YOU were complaining that no one  seemed to have anything more to say.

I wanted opinions, not trolling, thank you very much.

Really?     That's all it does for warriors?  So it is your "more educated" belief that magic doesn't, for example,  also increase  a warrior's mental resistance?

I have a  couple of quick questions.  How many times do we have to come on here and correct you on what the various attributes do in Dragon age?  How are we supposed to engage in the intelligent   info-sharing  build discussion you say you're seeking, if we have to  stop the discussion every few minutes to correct you on the basics of  the game's  mechanics?

More trolling, moving on..

What in the world are you talking about?

First off,    All of the  bombs in this game  have a MUCH larger range than Holy Smite.  Perhaps you mean Area of Effect?  Second,  Soulrot bombs  don't just do more damage than Holy Smite, they do *A LOT* more damage than Holy Smite.  80 points of damage to be exact, compared to about 20-30 for  Holy Smite.  Also,  unlike  Soulrot bombs,  Holy Smite costs 70 stamina to activate.  Of course,  I personally don't care about that, but I seem to recall debating with some guy on this thread who treasures his willpower-based stamina pool and  thus would probably see this as an important distinction.... from a utility perspective,  that is.  (70 stamina... that's about 14 points of willpower if you're keeping count).

You ever even played a templar? Then you'd know that holy smite has a bigger AOE as well as a bigger range. Searched all your chars on your index, and from the looks of it, I have to say considering the numbers you seem to know next to nothing about templars except for the names of their skills. You seem to have just read the first page about them. 

^lol  Wow, and he has the arrogant audacity to accuse ANYONE else here of trolling.  I'll tell you what.  I'm going to continue on as I have, and see  where this goes.  If it keeps up,   I'm fairly certain it's  you  who's gonna end up  facing down a moderator, not me.

I started the thread and offered much more productive information about it. I would have to say that I rest my case in calling you a troll in this thread. I have yet to read anything about you that requires NOT putting down other forumites participating here. Not to mention your numbers are just horribly off. 20 - 30 damage from holy smite? My record so far is 58 damage with my holy smite, striking up to an average of 3 or 4 enemies at once, therefore it can add to 174 or 232. That is more than any bomb can do. But enough about bombs. I prefer not to have to discuss magic with you anymore if possible. 

As far as your little challenge goes, I am surprised you even wish to turn my thread here into some sort of arena. But if you wish to keep up your put-downs and shooting down people for liking something you don't, then keep it up, I am sure I won't need to try to humiliate you; you'll do the job for me.

Deathblow can take longer to get if one  has a prioity on the weapon talents, while Willpower is available at every lvl. And for the Warden mage, I try to avoid becoming reliant on consumables, as I do not recall ever delving into crafting them; not even for gold. And while my Rogues may be more effective on auto-attacks in melee, most of my Rogues are archers, and I dislike watching ato-attack routines (which is a personal weakness with the AW, IMO).

I don't believe Deathblow itself is an elite tier skill, but then again I do not know the numbers? Elhanan, does Deathblow regenerate a certain percentage of stamina, or does it regenerate a fixed amount, like say 50 stamina per kill? I would like to see the numbers myself if possible. And since rogues usually do auto attack alot, it is kinda boring. Two handed warriors usually repeat certain skills, thus it mixes up the attack routine 

Modifié par Bahlgan, 03 juillet 2010 - 09:02 .

[Tirigon]

I usually don´t go about 20 willpower on warriors and rogues. 25 to 30 for mages, obviously less if it´s a bloodmage.

That works quite well for me.

Modifié par Tirigon, 03 juillet 2010 - 10:03 .

[Elhanan]

Not certain, as I cannot check the Wiki currently, but I seem to recall reading Deathblow restoring 50 Stamina.

[nestorprado]

Deathblow restores stamina 5x opponents level

[Yrkoon]

Edit, you know what?  I'll just take the stealth route on this one.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 03 juillet 2010 - 11:25 .

[Yrkoon]

Bahlgan wrote...
 Not to mention your numbers are just horribly off. 20 - 30 damage from holy smite? My record so far is 58 damage with my holy smite,

Oh?  So you had  190 willpower?    

Bahlgan wrote...

striking up to an average of 3 or 4 enemies at once, therefore it can add to 174 or 232.  That is more than any bomb can do

False.  Soul Rot Bomb.    80 damage, that can ALSO strike 3 or 4 enemies at once  (or have you forgotten that it's a BOMB, with an area of effect? )    And that totals out to... lets see... 240 or 320.     And it  can be done for the low, low price of  ZERO stamina spent.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 03 juillet 2010 - 12:17 .

[soteria]

Not to mention your numbers are just horribly off. 20 - 30 damage from holy smite? My record so far is 58 damage with my holy smite, striking up to an average of 3 or 4 enemies at once, therefore it can add to 174 or 232. That is more than any bomb can do. But enough about bombs.

This is inaccurate. Holy Smite is a useful skill, but in terms of dealing damage it is far outclassed by bombs, which can be spammed and do more damage in the first place and have the same radius of effect, IIRC. Holy Smite is useful because it is a stun/knockdown, not because it does a paltry amount of damage. It does have a longer casting range than bombs can be thrown, though.

Modifié par soteria, 03 juillet 2010 - 12:50 .

[Eurypterid]

Let's keep things civil here. You can discuss your different points of view and your differences of opinion without getting into personal attacks and slinging insults. So be excellent to each other or I may get grumpy.



Savvy?

[Bahlgan]

Edit, you know what?  I'll just take the stealth route on this one.

Smart lad. Keep your degenerate posts to yourself if you got nothing constructive to add.

Deathblow restores stamina 5x opponents level

Ah, well my char being max leveled, I can fully maximize the utility of this skill then 
Thanks again!

Eurypterid wrote...

Let's keep things civil here. You can discuss your different points of view and your differences of opinion without getting into personal attacks and slinging insults. So be excellent to each other or I may get grumpy.

Savvy?

I have no problem with keeping things civil, trust me when I say this. But it's hard to do that without an ignore feature, and even harder to do so when the so called "block" function serves no purpose. I have already said everything I need to, but apparently all it is doing is fueling the fire. I prefer to end whatever discussions I have with those who are not willing to do their research. If worse comes to worse, I recommend you lock this thread. I have already gotten everything I wanted, plus more from kind forumites such as Elhanan.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 03 juillet 2010 - 06:11 .

[Nooneyouknow13]

beancounter501 wrote...

Willpower is not a big boost to either Templar or Spirit Warrior. Unless, you do not have the stamina to run the sustains.  For instance you have to spend a ton a points in Willpower to make Holy Smite do any real damage. Why gimp your melee damage to get a few extra points of dmg out of attacks that have big cooldowns?

Look, it is your game play as you want. But willpower does not equal Awesome. Willpower is by far the weakest stat in the game. Especially if you are playing a warrior.  Willpower does not boost either your damage or your attack rating.  That is what matters to a warrior. 

Because high damage Smites and one point in poisons for grenades makes things laughably easy.  Granted I use DW for that set up and not two handers, but still.  High willpower magic immune DW templar with an abundance of grenades was the absolute most disgustingly broken build I've used in this game.  It's so easy it's not even fun.

Edit to justify the use of Willpower as a main attribute in the above build after 42 Strength and 36 dex: It's not just for Smite damage. That's just a really nice side effect. It's have enough stamina to sustain Momentum, Berserking and Blood thirst, and still being able to chain Dual Weapon Sweep, Whirlwind and Holy Smite.  I could probably get away with not using Blood Thirst, but why?

Modifié par Nooneyouknow13, 03 juillet 2010 - 07:11 .

[Nooneyouknow13]

Yrkoon wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Yes; will have to test my high Magic/Cunning 2H to see if Willpower was such a poor choice....

Your tests will confirm it..

Cunning is a lot more useful than willpower. Cunning helps your coersion skills. It also increases your armor penetration, making you do more damage with each swing. Can't say the same for Willpower now, can we. Cunning also increases your Mental resistance, just like Will does. There's no two-handed talent that can be used in place of cunning.

Magic makes all your poultices, salves, grenades and and coatings super-powered when you use them -- which again, directly contributes to the damage you can do. Also interesting to note, for you Stamina-centric people, . A high magic score makes the stamina pots in Awakening more effective.

You do know that 4 ranks of coercion is enough to pass every single check in DA:O and like, 10 points or so short of the hardest check in Awakening?  That out of the way, do you have a source for anything beyond poultices scaling of magic?  To my knowledge, grenades and coatings don't scale at all. The only way to make them do more damage is with negatic resist skills.

[beancounter501]

Nooneyouknow13 wrote...
Because high damage Smites and one point in poisons for grenades makes things laughably easy.  Granted I use DW for that set up and not two handers, but still.  High willpower magic immune DW templar with an abundance of grenades was the absolute most disgustingly broken build I've used in this game.  It's so easy it's not even fun.

Edit to justify the use of Willpower as a main attribute in the above build after 42 Strength and 36 dex: It's not just for Smite damage. That's just a really nice side effect. It's have enough stamina to sustain Momentum, Berserking and Blood thirst, and still being able to chain Dual Weapon Sweep, Whirlwind and Holy Smite.  I could probably get away with not using Blood Thirst, but why?

It was probably the grenades.  Unless improving your smite from 25 points of dmg to 58 points of damage made the game laughably easy..........

[Elhanan]

Kinda sweet to be able to run all the desired buff modes, and still have over half of the Stamina/Mana bar remaining for active talents, ain't it?

[Yrkoon]

And you'll need to, since given the amount of points you need to put into willpower to make such a thing possible, you won't be doing a whole lot of damage every time you swing your sword... assuming your attack bonus is high enough to actually land  those blows in the first place.

You  do realize that you only get 5 points of stamina for every willpower point you spend, yes?

Modifié par Yrkoon, 04 juillet 2010 - 10:56 .

[soteria]

Kinda sweet to be able to run all the desired buff modes, and still have over half of the Stamina/Mana bar remaining for active talents, ain't it?

Yes. I can do that with base willpower, though. Observe. I've linked that video before, but I think it's worth pointing out in this thread. Alistair and Sten both, with base willpower, run all the sustains I want and are still able to use specials throughout most of the fight.