81 réponses à ce sujet

[Bahlgan]

soteria wrote...

Kinda sweet to be able to run all the desired buff modes, and still have over half of the Stamina/Mana bar remaining for active talents, ain't it?

Yes. I can do that with base willpower, though. Observe. I've linked that video before, but I think it's worth pointing out in this thread. Alistair and Sten both, with base willpower, run all the sustains I want and are still able to use specials throughout most of the fight.

Only problem is I saw Alistair and Sten run out of stamina before the video was half way over. How much stamina did each character actually have? Because I have Alistair in my game with 3 sustained modes (Shield Wall, Precise Striking, and Rally) totaling over 50% of his stamina sustained. That is because he has only 18 willpower. Now those with shields on average do not require much willpower because most of those skills are either passive or sustained anyway, leaving only the top 4 to be activated (plus skills from specializations)

Two handers, on the other hand, require much more stamina. This has already been covered. Perhaps 33 points of willpower is too much, even for two handers who invest in becoming spirit warriors and templars, but it is not exactly the smartest idea in the world either for a two hander to be under-prepared with willpower. After all, early on in the game, their ability to stand against enemies without a proper tank (or in my case as a proper tank) two handers are hard to get started. My point is that two handers deserve more willpower than most give them credit for.

[soteria]

Alistair was running three sustains (momentum, dual striking, rally) and ran out of stamina in the first five seconds of the fight--holy smite used it all up. I'm looking at talent usage, not willpower levels. If you pay attention, Alistair was using specials more or less constantly until near the end when he ran out of enemies to kill, triggering deathblow. Even then, stamina regen from items was enough to keep him using abilities. Sten started with much more stamina, but was in worse gear for regen (Alistair was wearing drake armor), and didn't get quite as much talent usage--though he almost always had enough stamina to do what I wanted him to do, again until the end when deathblow wouldn't trigger.

Point is, stamina regen and deathblow are far more important than base willpower. Both Alistair and Sten were at base willpower + gear, and the thing I'd like you to notice is how many specials Alistair in particular was using (I didn't control Sten much in that fight).

[Bahlgan]

soteria wrote...

Alistair was running three sustains (momentum, dual striking, rally) and ran out of stamina in the first five seconds of the fight--holy smite used it all up. I'm looking at talent usage, not willpower levels. If you pay attention, Alistair was using specials more or less constantly until near the end when he ran out of enemies to kill, triggering deathblow. Even then, stamina regen from items was enough to keep him using abilities. Sten started with much more stamina, but was in worse gear for regen (Alistair was wearing drake armor), and didn't get quite as much talent usage--though he almost always had enough stamina to do what I wanted him to do, again until the end when deathblow wouldn't trigger.
Point is, stamina regen and deathblow are far more important than base willpower. Both Alistair and Sten were at base willpower + gear, and the thing I'd like you to notice is how many specials Alistair in particular was using (I didn't control Sten much in that fight).

By specials, do you mean combo attacks? Sorry, I am kinda lost here.

[soteria]

Activated abilities... whirlwind, riposte, etc.

[Last Darkness]

Bahlgan wrote...

 Specifically for two handed warriors, I imagine anyway. Personally, it is my second highest stat, with Constitution being the third highest stat in my attributes bar. Being a two handed warrior, I hope not to tell you that I placed strength as my most powerful feature, but some (from the two handed stinks thread) believe that I place dexterity as the number one attribute. For that I apologize if I made myself as an ignorant no-good bad person 

What do you all think about the willpower attribute? Consider these questions:

1. Could all classes make great use of willpower?
2. Wouldn't it be cool if willpower had another function, like say resistance to mental control?
3. Should willpower be a form of coercion for all classes, and not just mages? Perhaps against fade spirits?

This is a Troll Post, dont reply anymore.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

[Bahlgan]

Last Darkness wrote...

This is a Troll Post, dont reply anymore.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

Too late. I already replied. Seriously, do you have anything serious to add to this thread though?

Activated abilities... whirlwind, riposte, etc.

I see. But if Alistair, for example, is out of stamina, then he has no abilities to use any more specials. I am still a tad confused over what you are trying to prove with the vid. To me, your vid shows that low willpower proves that you can run out of stamina quickly. I did notice however, that Leliana wasn't using a whole lot of stamina. What kind of equipment do you have on Alistair and Sten that might add on stamina regen and equipped stamina?

Modifié par Bahlgan, 05 juillet 2010 - 08:01 .

[soteria]

Sigh... I don't know how to say this more plainly. Can anyone help me out?

The point is it doesn't matter what your base willpower is because between deathblow and gear stamina regenerates extremely quickly in combat. It doesn't matter that Alistair keeps on running out of stamina. Look, what's the point of having stamina, anyway? To use abilities, right? What are my warriors doing throughout the whole fight? Using abilities. You seem to be so focused on a number--stamina--that you've forgotten why you want it in the first place. Honestly, extra willpower would have made very little difference in that fight.

If you're wondering what gear they're wearing, I mouse over every item in the first minutes of the video.

[Yrkoon]

I'll try.

That video you posted, Soteria, is amazing. . We've got a party of warriors in *constant* offensive action, and engaged in what is almost universally accepted as the toughest fight in the game. They win it with total ease.  In that video I saw the unmistakeable and undeniable effects of Deathblow.   You know, DEATH BLOW, that passive that makes pumping points into willpower completely redundant.

But again, The ongoing crusade to make sure this thread remains active dictates that we  continue to ignore this FACT until about page 10 or so.

So lets do that.   I'll  go ahead and start the second half of this thread with the predictable counter[s]: 

1) "hehehe  So what,  I've pumped tons of points into Willpower and my warrior is AWESOME.  He ends his fights with 203 sustains active  and  tons of yellow bar still showing!  I win!

2) While I understand that Deathblow, Stamina regeneration, Will/Stamina bonuses from dozens of items etc.  help a great deal, and in fact, make pumping points in willpower pointless,  I do it anyway for  "variety" and/or "utility".  My well-rounded-for-no-practical-reason warrior is great.  I him.  PS: did I mention that Willpower = Awesome?

3)  I  like to do a few more points of damage every 40 seconds with my Holy Smite.  And that's why I  make  sure  to put points in Willpower.      Points that  could have gone  into  Strength  instead, and the damage I do with my weapon.  It's all about Logic, don't you know.

4) I.... I like to roleplay a guy who's got a lot of Will, ok?  Therefore, you're wrong about Willpower being reduntant due to Deathblow, Stamina regeneration, and items that bestow will bonuses.   Pumping points into Willpower is useful for players who like to Role Play high willpower  warriors. 

Modifié par Yrkoon, 05 juillet 2010 - 11:35 .

[Elhanan]

I choose number 2, or at least something close to it.

As the video is too small for my Ancient eyes to watch, I figure it must have been regen gear in play. And such is quite nice as my Warden's use some, too.

My latest was an AW/BM/SH (used the respec mod to alter specs during latter part of game to further test BM), that used Cailan's arms, Evon and Wades mail, expensive staff from the Circle, and the usual rings, belt, and amulet. But in addition, I had ca.30% pts into Willpower. Some may think that ther equipment is enough. I prefer to finish with fuel in the tank; not fumes.

But as they say: No fuel like an Ancient fuel. I can live - and thrive - with my choices. While I do not care about min effort and investment for max results, some do. And they sometines like to bray about it loudly.

Guess I am into pumping; not pompous.

[beancounter501]

Regen is nice and all but Deathblow is the key talent for a warrior. In a 30 second fight a Warrior cane easily blow 500 to 600 points of stamina. At 5 stamina per Will it takes a LOT of WIll to cover that. Deathblow on the other hand can cover that. Because each Deathblow will give you 40 to 60 stamina points back. Or it is worth 8 to 12 points of Will for each guy you kill. Since you can easily kill 3 or 4 guys in a fight that means Deathblow is worth anywhere from 25 to 50 points of Will!



And I have had some Deathblows restore almost the entire Stamina pool when fighting some of the high HP monsters.

[DWSmiley]

The advantage of putting points in willpower is that your characters do less damage, so fights last longer and you get more hours of play from each playthrough.

[Elhanan]

beancounter501 wrote...

Regen is nice and all but Deathblow is the key talent for a warrior. In a 30 second fight a Warrior cane easily blow 500 to 600 points of stamina. At 5 stamina per Will it takes a LOT of WIll to cover that. Deathblow on the other hand can cover that. Because each Deathblow will give you 40 to 60 stamina points back. Or it is worth 8 to 12 points of Will for each guy you kill. Since you can easily kill 3 or 4 guys in a fight that means Deathblow is worth anywhere from 25 to 50 points of Will!

And I have had some Deathblows restore almost the entire Stamina pool when fighting some of the high HP monsters.

It may not be as important for S&S Warriors; uncertain.

In my last campaign, I failed to respec Allistair with Deathblow, and did not notice any hiccups. I basically only used Precise Strike, Shield Wall, and Rally as modes late in the game. My thought is that if he did run out or low, he simply falls to the default attack routine which is what I actually prefer unless someone needs Knockdown or Stunned.

It does back my notion that S&S do not need much attention, and why I much prefer to play 2H and other classes.

[Elhanan]

DWSmiley wrote...

The advantage of putting points in willpower is that your characters do less damage, so fights last longer and you get more hours of play from each playthrough.

Wiseguys....

I will take that loss of STR in a warrior, and replace it with more Sunders, Sweeps, MB's, and even a Critical or two. And agreed; gameplay is thus enhanced as auto-attacks are lessened.

[beancounter501]

@Smiley - that was a good one.



Elhanan, - unless you are putting a ton of points into Will do not expect to get more special talents. To use 1 Mighty Blow and 1 Sweep will cost you 80 or so stamina. Probably closer to 100 points after Fatigue. So you need 20 points of will to get an extra two attacks. Or just rely on Deathblow like everyone is saying.



Or just put points into Will because you want to. But it is not helping you as much as you think.

[Elhanan]

beancounter501 wrote...

@Smiley - that was a good one.

Elhanan, - unless you are putting a ton of points into Will do not expect to get more special talents. To use 1 Mighty Blow and 1 Sweep will cost you 80 or so stamina. Probably closer to 100 points after Fatigue. So you need 20 points of will to get an extra two attacks. Or just rely on Deathblow like everyone is saying.

Or just put points into Will because you want to. But it is not helping you as much as you think.

It would seem to be of some help before one gets to 12th lvl and 25 STR; the pre-req for DB.

I prefer to use both, when I can remember to do so. The Respec mod certainly does help in removing a lot of headaches from rebuilding and redistribution, but it is not fool proof, and I am the fool to prove it. Recently Wynne was running somewhat anemic in the game, more than her usual dying self. After a quick check, iIt seemed when I respec her, I placed her Magic pts into Cunning instead.



Again, I am no expert and no Techie. But my observations with 2H and Mages appear that Will as a secondary spec seem to work quite effectively. And a small boost for my Rogues has been helpful, too.

[soteria]

As the video is too small for my Ancient eyes to watch, I figure it must have been regen gear in play. And such is quite nice as my Warden's use some, too.

My latest was an AW/BM/SH (used the respec mod to alter specs during latter part of game to further test BM), that used Cailan's arms, Evon and Wades mail, expensive staff from the Circle, and the usual rings, belt, and amulet. But in addition, I had ca.30% pts into Willpower. Some may think that ther equipment is enough. I prefer to finish with fuel in the tank; not fumes.

Well, Sten didn't have any regen gear on at all, and he still used plenty of abilities. The only time regen really had a serious effect was toward the end when all the normal enemies were dead. Since it's too small for you to read, here's the lowdown: Alistair started with 125 available stamina, Sten with 235. Throughout the fight, Alistair used 10 activated abilities for a total of 395 stamina. Sten used 7 activated abilities for a total of 311 stamina. I'm not sure it gets any clearer than that: despite having almost twice the available stamina (+100 from nug crusher), Sten was less active than Alistair. That's regen gear and deathblow at work. Alistair just got more kills than Sten (9 vs 4).

As for finishing with "fuel in the tank," I have a strikingly different philosophy. If you finish the fight with any significant amount of stamina left over, at least one of three things is true:

1. You had more stamina than you needed for the fight.
2. You could have used more specials.
3. You could have used more sustains.

Ergo, the only significant factor to me is how much stamina I have used, not how much I have left. Elhanan, even if you gave Sten 10 more points of willpower, he wouldn't have been any more active--with that gear most 2h abilities cost 53 stamina. Sunder Arms is only 33 stamina but I was using that often enough already. With 12 more points, or one per level since recruitment, he would have gotten *1* more special in and still would have been behind Alistair in terms of activity. 

In damage, he would have been waaaay behind.  I'm not good at the numbers, but I think those 12 points would equate to around 14 damage lost per swing.  That's hundreds of points of damage over the course of the fight, which will never be made up for with a single special.  Additionally, given that the whole party is competing for deathblows, a character that's doing 14 less damage per swing will regain less stamina and be even less active.

Modifié par soteria, 05 juillet 2010 - 02:36 .

[beancounter501]

Elhanan wrote...
Recently Wynne was running somewhat anemic in the game, more than her usual dying self. After a quick check, iIt seemed when I respec her, I placed her Magic pts into Cunning instead.

Ha, I think we have all done that one at one point or another!  

[Elhanan]

@ soteria - No video here, but at the same place in the game my female HN 2H was (with equipment):

Lvl: 21; Health:365; Stamina: 260/110 resv

STR:77; DEX:32; WILL:39; MGC:18; CUN:23; CON:32

For most of this campaign, I used 2H Starfang. You had Nug Crusher w/ Sten, You chose to wear the stamina, and I chose to have it as part of the build. That seems to be the main difference.

[Yrkoon]

Elhanan wrote...

I choose number 2, or at least something close to it.
As the video is too small for my Ancient eyes to watch, I figure it must have been regen gear in play. And such is quite nice as my Warden's use some, too.

Just a note... you can full-screen  you tube videos... just hit that square icon to the right.  the one with the 4 arrows pointing outward.

And yes,  gear was definitely a factor.   Sten  was using  Nug Crusher (+100 stamina) etc..  But   the effects of Deathblow  was the main story here..  If you watch the video again, try and pay attention to what happens after Alistair or Sten kill an opponent.  Watch what happens to their stamina bars.

Especially Alistar.  I saw his stamina bar go from practically nothing to half way up again... from one kill.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 05 juillet 2010 - 04:00 .

[Elhanan]

I did have the screen on full, but I am unable to make out details such as items, numbers, stamina bars etc. Price of reading comics under the blankets all those years, I guess.

[soteria]

It's not your eyes, really. The numbers are fuzzy and hard to read, but what I want people to notice is the difference deathblow makes when it activates. Their stamina bars visibly jump, and you can see a bluish cloud swirl around the warrior who gets the blow.

For most of this campaign, I used 2H Starfang. You had Nug Crusher w/ Sten, You chose to wear the stamina, and I chose to have it as part of the build. That seems to be the main difference.

Yes, I've seen you say this, or something similar, in many threads. I just don't understand it. You have to wear gear, and you have to equip a weapon. You can't even *use* talents without a weapon equipped. Like it or not, you ARE dependent on gear and weapons, and that's not something you can ever get around. All the willpower in the world is useless without a weapon, and you'll die without armor, so why plan a build around not having them?

Statistically, Nug Crusher and Chasind Great Maul are superior to many other items just because of the item budget. It's not that I value 100 stamina so highly that I go with Nug Crusher, but it's just a great value. If an item had 20 strength--the equivalent--I would use that, instead. Actually, if they made an item like that, wouldn't everyone use it? It just further demonstrates how weak willpower is. Once again, more strength is *always* helpful. More willpower may or may not be... I refer to my above post on finishing the fight with leftover stamina.

[Elhanan]

I see your point in one small way: the best equipment does get used due to the value for that player and character.

However, I tire of using the same items build after build, and as far as these mauls; dislike their appearance. I became so sick of looking at Nugcrusher after getting it, that I jumped at the chance to use a greatsword. I do realize that appearance means little in a solo game, but I also find myself pushed away from choosing cowls for my mages; another plus for the AW.

In my years in RPG, I find that having inate powers are far better than relying upon equipment to perform that function. In DAO, there are only a few spots this gets tested (eg; DN Origin, Captured sidequest, etc), and this experience is short lived, but it usually occurs somwhere in games spawned by crafty DM's.

In short, I place a higher value on versatility and being able to adapt to the settings rather than become reliant on a certain well made weapon; a really ugly weapon. With my 2H, I valued Starfang more than the maul, and if one of the battleaxes had been as good, may have used one of those instead.

And I tried to make an archer that could use Indominatable... heh!

[Bahlgan]

Elhanan wrote...

It would seem to be of some help before one gets to 12th lvl and 25 STR; the pre-req for DB.

I prefer to use both, when I can remember to do so. The Respec mod certainly does help in removing a lot of headaches from rebuilding and redistribution, but it is not fool proof, and I am the fool to prove it. Recently Wynne was running somewhat anemic in the game, more than her usual dying self. After a quick check, iIt seemed when I respec her, I placed her Magic pts into Cunning instead.



Again, I am no expert and no Techie. But my observations with 2H and Mages appear that Will as a secondary spec seem to work quite effectively. And a small boost for my Rogues has been helpful, too.

No worries Elhanan. You're not the only one who likes Willpower. Perhaps we can start some sort of discussion as to what people might think developers could add to willpower in order to make it more useful. I added a choice like that on my original post, but it seems it wasn't good enough. I think if players gained an additional bonus to spell resistance, it might make players place additional points into willpower. If not that, then how about increasing their chances to resist death for a limited time under low amounts of health. (storywise I thought to create a function that matches the definition). What 

What other bonuses would you all like to see on willpower to make it more useful? Thoughts, anyone? :happy:

[soteria]

Regen. I'm pretty happy with the mental resist bonus as it is, unless you're talking about % spell resist, which is different. A lot of people in times past have suggested adding a regen bonus to willpower and an armor bonus to constitution, as both of those stats are pretty lackluster.