250 réponses à ce sujet

[Massadonious1]

Eh, you can say they're already prepared. As long as they can fire a weapon, lead a team or survive in the vents long enough to get me to where I need to be to either destroy the base or set off the radiation charge, they are "focused" enough for me.



I wouldn't think it would be considered being a jerk, I would consider it being practical. The Collectors are off abducting more humans while you are off clubing in Afterlife, hoping to lure in Morinth, who only poses a significant threat to you and the mission when you decide to go looking for her in the first place.



Most of them have resigned themselves to dying, or find the cause worthy enough to lay down their lives for, including yourself. Why not let them?

[STG]

Shandepared wrote...
My renegade completed the suicide mission without any casualties (not counting the abducted crew, at least).

Yeah thats the renegade option I can never take. Forgot about it until now.

I always have someone escort the crew back, but it would be sweet if the escort was always destined to die. Would be kinda like Virmiring someone.

[LuxDragon]

STG wrote...

Samara vs. Morinth: On one hand you have a mother who spent half of her life hunting her child with intent to kill her. On other you have a serial murderer who kills because of her genetic condition and narcotic addiction. Shouldn't killing Samara be paragon because you prevent a child being murdered by her mother? And shouldn't killing Morinth be renegade because in the long run you prevent deaths of countless innocents?

If you want to look at it personally, sure, preventing Samara from killing Morinth should be paragonish. On the other hand, if you look at it objectively, you're dealing with someone who's been killing people for 400 years, so stopping a serial killer (AKA Morinth)? Total paragon. Kinda muddy there depending on your POV.

As for Morinth, even paragons get the mission done in some way I guess.

[CroGamer002]

STG wrote...



Council: Just look at the situation. Sovereign is trying to break Vigil's protection. What little time we have is ticking away. Finally, cavalry rolls in and you have a choice between bee-lining for Sovereign or wasting time and precious firepower on potential backup. You simply can't afford any delays, regardless of the cost, when entire galaxy is at stake.

I never had problem killing Council.
Destroying Destiny Ascension is what trobles me.

[KarmaTheAlligator]

Shandepared wrote...

Spectres are supposed to succeed at any cost, the mission is always to come first, nothing else! Not innocent lives, not ethics, not justice, all that should matter to Shepard is that the mission succeeds.

But you don't have to make all those sacrifices to succeed. It doesn't make you a better Spectre to do it one way or another, it just makes you more humane to do it the good way.

[CroGamer002]

KarmaTheAlligator wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Spectres are supposed to succeed at any cost, the mission is always to come first, nothing else! Not innocent lives, not ethics, not justice, all that should matter to Shepard is that the mission succeeds.

But you don't have to make all those sacrifices to succeed. It doesn't make you a better Spectre to do it one way or another, it just makes you more humane to do it the good way.

Quoting Shepard: Just because you can bow rules, that doesn't mean you should.

[STG]

Mesina2 wrote...

STG wrote...



Council: Just look at the situation. Sovereign is trying to break Vigil's protection. What little time we have is ticking away. Finally, cavalry rolls in and you have a choice between bee-lining for Sovereign or wasting time and precious firepower on potential backup. You simply can't afford any delays, regardless of the cost, when entire galaxy is at stake.

I never had problem killing Council.
Destroying Destiny Ascension is what trobles me.

Same here. And it's not just it's crew of 10.000, there are also Turian ships around it, trying to hold the line and protect it. But if you don't meta game as Shand said, you simply don't know that everything will work out. So as much as I wanted to save all those guys, I couldn't risk it, not when reapers were knocking on our door.

[CroGamer002]

STG wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

STG wrote...



Council: Just look at the situation. Sovereign is trying to break Vigil's protection. What little time we have is ticking away. Finally, cavalry rolls in and you have a choice between bee-lining for Sovereign or wasting time and precious firepower on potential backup. You simply can't afford any delays, regardless of the cost, when entire galaxy is at stake.

I never had problem killing Council.
Destroying Destiny Ascension is what trobles me.

Same here. And it's not just it's crew of 10.000, there are also Turian ships around it, trying to hold the line and protect it. But if you don't meta game as Shand said, you simply don't know that everything will work out. So as much as I wanted to save all those guys, I couldn't risk it, not when reapers were knocking on our door.

Well I did let them die in my Paragon Shepard playtrough.

[Dark Penitant]

Shandepared wrote...

KarmaTheAlligator wrote...

But you don't have to make all those sacrifices to succeed. It doesn't make you a better Spectre to do it one way or another, it just makes you more humane to do it the good way.

With meta-gaming we know that ultimately renegade is pointless loss of life because a paragon can always complete the mission just as successfully with no negative fallout (unlike renegade) and with fewer casualities (unlike renegade). However I don't meta-game these decisions; I roleplay them. My Shepard doesn't know that if the saves the Destiny Ascension that he'll still be able to destroy Sovereign. He doesn't know that if he lets Balak go that Balak won't launch more terrorist attacks or betray him and blow everybody up as he makes his escape. He doesn't know that the rachni queen is going to stay true to her word instead of overruning Noveria and perhaps a sizable portion of the galaxy. He doesn't know that if he blows up the Collector base that Bioware will invent a new plot-device to save his ass in the next Mass Effect game.

As far as Shepard knows if even ONE of these gambles were to play out not in his favor the consquences would be dire.

He won't take the risk.

A renegade succeeds, despite the cost, because they play it smart and safe. A paragon succeeds because the writers want them to (for the most part).

thats a really, really good ****g point. that said some of those renagede choices are just gratuitous. i mean really, why would you not play poker with gabby and ken?!

[Massadonious1]

Shandepared wrote...

It's good that the team is willing to sacrifice themselves, but I don't want that sacrifice to be in vain.

It's safe to say, that even without metagaming, these particular people would of gotten the job done, regardless if their head was screwed on straight before the final battle. TIM wouldn't of sent you out to recruit these people if they were just simple redshirts.

Becoming "friends" or developing romatic interests implies that you care about his or her well being, and not just the job they are required to do, which was my point in the first place.

Some of the loyalty missions, like Mordin's, Grunt's, and Legion's are rather important on their own anyway.

Mordin's and Legion's perhaps, but Grunt? It would probably be best to leave him clanless. Why would you want to risk the "perfect" Krogan making babies? (with or without the genophage) They may decide that their father's word isn't good enough, and hunt you for sport.

Modifié par Massadonious1, 29 juin 2010 - 08:15 .

[Dark Penitant]

Massadonious1 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

It's good that the team is willing to sacrifice themselves, but I don't want that sacrifice to be in vain.

It's safe to say, that even without metagaming, these particular people would of gotten the job done, regardless if their head was screwed on straight before the final battle. TIM wouldn't of sent you out to recruit these people if they were just simple redshirts.

Becoming "friends" or developing romatic interests implies that you care about his or her well being, and not just the job they are required to do, which was my point in the first place.

Some of the loyalty missions, like Mordin's, Grunt's, and Legion's are rather important on their own anyway.

Mordin's and Legion's perhaps, but Grunt? It would probably be best to leave him clanless. Why would you want to risk the "perfect" Krogan making babies? (with or without the genophage) They may decide that their father's word isn't good enough, and hunt you for sport.

THANK YOU. finally someone else who thinks grunts mission is only useful for those precious 15 gamer points

[KarmaTheAlligator]

Shandepared wrote...

KarmaTheAlligator wrote...

But you don't have to make all those sacrifices to succeed. It doesn't make you a better Spectre to do it one way or another, it just makes you more humane to do it the good way.

With meta-gaming we know that ultimately renegade is pointless loss of life because a paragon can always complete the mission just as successfully with no negative fallout (unlike renegade) and with fewer casualities (unlike renegade). However I don't meta-game these decisions; I roleplay them. My Shepard doesn't know that if the saves the Destiny Ascension that he'll still be able to destroy Sovereign. He doesn't know that if he lets Balak go that Balak won't launch more terrorist attacks or betray him and blow everybody up as he makes his escape. He doesn't know that the rachni queen is going to stay true to her word instead of overruning Noveria and perhaps a sizable portion of the galaxy. He doesn't know that if he blows up the Collector base that Bioware will invent a new plot-device to save his ass in the next Mass Effect game.

As far as Shepard knows if even ONE of these gambles were to play out not in his favor the consquences would be dire.

He won't take the risk.

A renegade succeeds, despite the cost, because they play it smart and safe. A paragon succeeds because the writers want them to (for the most part).

I don't meta-game those decisions either. Sure it takes better planning and more efforts, but I do try to save everyone during those missions. The possiblity is there to do the right thing from the start. And don't tell me about knowing the consequences of your actions, nobody knows how it will turn out at the time, you can only wait and see, but that doesn't mean compromising your beliefs/ethics.

Your way is just easier, faster. Yup I just compared Renegade to the dark side.

My Shepard doesn't know that if the saves the Destiny Ascension that he'll still be able to destroy Sovereign.

Shepard doesn't know if focusing everything on Sovereign will even work, so she tries to save who she can while she can.

He doesn't know that the rachni queen is going to stay true to her word instead of overruning
Noveria and perhaps a sizable portion of the galaxy.

The queen seems sincere, and Shepard doesn't see why she'd not respect her promise.

He doesn't know that if he blows up the Collector base that Bioware will invent a new plot-device to save his ass in the next Mass Effect game.

Shepard doesn't know if TIM can be trusted with such a thing, and therefore decides to play it safe.

Modifié par KarmaTheAlligator, 29 juin 2010 - 08:38 .

[snfonseka]

Mesina2 wrote...

Number #5

Let Patriarch get killed


Seriously I just can't use Renegade persude at him so that he attacks assassins and get himself killed.
He is most awesome Krogan!
Well beside Grunt and Wrex.
Fortunately I always have enogh Paragon points to be his krantt.

Number #4

Persude Asari to dump Charr


He and Thax are only Krogans... no only NPCs that shocked me in Mass Effect 2!
Seriously a poet Krogan?! How can you not like him?! How can you make his girlfriend dump him?!

Number #3

Blow up Geth Heretics on Legion loyalty mission.


I know what are you thinking: "Dude, they serve Reapers and they aren't indoctrinated nor they are forced, they are obviously bad guys. Also what about Eden Prime, Feros and Citadel? Sure they will be usefull against Reapers but why is hard to blow them up?"
My answer, I don't know.
I just can't.
Even before Legion I found Geth awesome.

Number #2

Kill Rachni Queen.


Actually I did killed her once. I felt like a total douchbag.
Why I can't kill her anymore.
First genocide, unless mosquitoes are subject I'm not really fan of genocide in real life and fiction.
Second, why kill her? It was like 2000 years from Rachni Wars, not even Asari live that long so forgive and forget. Besides Sovereign indoctrinated previous Rachni Queen so it's not them to blame.

Number #1

Let Cerberus keep David.


Seriously!? Seriously do I have to explain this one?!
I...  just... really you have no soul if let them keep him.
It's just pointless torture. Nothing good will come out of that.



Hornable mention.

Let Geth destroy Destiny Ascension.


Seeing that commander and later finding out later that there were 5000 people made me feel bad.
But I killed those 3 douchbags so I don't feel sorry much.

Are U sure U are taking about your "Renegade" Shepard, seems "Paragon" to me....

[CroGamer002]

snfonseka wrote...

Are U sure U are taking about your "Renegade" Shepard, seems "Paragon" to me....

???

[snfonseka]

KarmaTheAlligator wrote...

My Shepard doesn't know that if the saves the Destiny Ascension that
he'll still be able to destroy Sovereign.
Shepard doesn't know ift focusing everything on Sovereign will even work, so my she tries to save who she can while she can.

So U don't know that focusing everything on Sovereign will even work... and you still reduce the possibility of success by ordering your ships to engage Geth ships instead of Sovereign... well... thats logical thinking.

[Vralenalien]

Regardless of your path (Paragon or Renegade) not blowing Collector base up seems really stupid in the light of what you already know about the reapers. "Your civilization is based on the technology of Mass Relays. Our technology." Says Sovereign on Virmvire. They want you to use their technology so saving the bloody base seems rather stupid thing to do.

Sure you get nice technology and all that, but Reapers have used the same technology for millions of years and risk of that technology biting your own *ss off is just too big risk. You already rely on relays out of necessity no need to go even deeper there.



Sure sovereign might have been lying, but it really didn't seem the type who lies for simple organic mistake of evolution who needs to be wiped out every 50000 years.



And handing that station to TIM seems even worse idea. Feels just wrong to leave the base intact.



My other never do (again) things are

killing Rachni queen

Letting Cerberus keep David (Haven't done that ever. Just seems wrong on so many levels. Even with my badass Shepard it was wrong.)

Letting Cerberus get Legion (My Shepards never trusts Cerberus so not going to give them anything that could be useful for me and besides I want to know why that Geth spoke and helped me.)

I've also never destroyed the whole Feros colony. Didn't see any point even on my renegade. Remains to be seen if I will wipe it out on future playthroughs,

[KarmaTheAlligator]

snfonseka wrote...

KarmaTheAlligator wrote...

My Shepard doesn't know that if the saves the Destiny Ascension that
he'll still be able to destroy Sovereign.
Shepard doesn't know ift focusing everything on Sovereign will even work, so my she tries to save who she can while she can.

So U don't know that focusing everything on Sovereign will even work... and you still reduce the possibility of success by ordering your ships to engage Geth ships instead of Sovereign... well... thats logical thinking.

The thing is, the Destiny Ascension is on the paths to Sovereign, so that's what I thought: "I'll destroy those geth ships and save it on the way, it shouldn't take too many ships" and while it may seem illogical It's not like I told them to completely ignore Sovereign.

[KarmaTheAlligator]

Shandepared wrote...

KarmaTheAlligator wrote...

I don't meta-game those decisions either.

 
I question your judgement then. Risking the survival of galactic civilization to save the Council was a bad call, even if it wound up working out for you. Blowing up the Collector base was a bad call, even if studying it blows up in your face later. What I care about is the principal, the reasoning, I care about what you tried to do and what risks you took. With the Council decision you are risking the entire galaxy for good public relations. With the Collector base you are risking the possibility of failure for the chance at life saving intelligence on the enemy.

But I remembered what Sovereign said about the galactic civilisation and Reaper technology. Everyone's been using it and it never helped in millions of years. And while I really don't know what we could learn from the base I judged the risk of it blowing up in our face higher than the potential rewards. And if we do learn somehing from it, what will it be? Some stuff that the Repers have known for aeons and know all too wll how to counter.

[BellaStrega]

Shandepared wrote...
A renegade succeeds, despite the cost, because they play it smart and safe. A paragon succeeds because the writers want them to (for the most part).

No, despite the valorization of renegade Shepard that constantly goes on around here, the renegade and paragon choices both succeed because the writers want them to. Paragon decisions are not exceptionally flawed or stupid in comparison to renegade choices.

Realistically, humanity would suffer diplomatically and economically, possibly even militarily as a consequence of allowing the Council and the Destiny Ascension to die. Realistically, renegade Shepard's actions would alienate the other races. Shepard would be a loose cannon, and reflect on humanity as a whole, given that Shepard was given Spectre status specifically to see how a human would do with this kind of responsibility, as well as to track down a rogue Spectre in the first place.

But I can live with this not happening as a consequence of renegade Shepard's actions because the point is that you're supposed to have more than one valid path to the endgame, and the galaxy's and humanity's fortunes reflect your choices in ways that would perhaps not be realistic.

Seriously, guys, some people like to play paragon. You should just get over it and admit that dramatic fiat drives renegade success as much as it does paragon, and stop talking a ridiculous game like you're smarter, edgier, and cannier for playing renegade.

[Tooneyman]

Someone makes another thread. The top five renegade choice you did do.