250 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

It's more like a series of tubes, really.

[snfonseka]

Siansonea II wrote...

One thing I wonder is, if the mission is the most important thing, why do sidequests at all? They divert time and resources away from the main mission. A true Renegade wouldn't be messing about with Patriarch or speaking to people like Conrad Verner at all. It would be Talk To The Hand, I'm Saving The Universe.

This is possible.... isn't it? The plyer can choose to avoid side missions if he /she wants to.

[snfonseka]

bobobo878 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

BellaStrega wrote...
Realistically, humanity would suffer diplomatically and economically, possibly even militarily as a consequence of allowing the Council and the Destiny Ascension to die. Realistically, renegade Shepard's actions would alienate the other races.

This is exactly what happened. Minus the economic part. (why would humanity suffer economically?

If humanity becomes too alienated from the galactic community, the other races might impose sanctions.  As the Batarians can tell you, going rogue is not the best way for any race to improve it's economy.

Lets get real world example... If one of the five world super powers does something that makes a neggative impact on the rest of the countries... who dare to impose sactions. In ME "humans" is this super power that everyone hate but don't want as an enemy.

[ObserverStatus]

snfonseka wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

BellaStrega wrote...
Realistically, humanity would suffer diplomatically and economically, possibly even militarily as a consequence of allowing the Council and the Destiny Ascension to die. Realistically, renegade Shepard's actions would alienate the other races.

This is exactly what happened. Minus the economic part. (why would humanity suffer economically?

If humanity becomes too alienated from the galactic community, the other races might impose sanctions.  As the Batarians can tell you, going rogue is not the best way for any race to improve it's economy.

Lets get real world example... If one of the five world super powers does something that makes a neggative impact on the rest of the countries... who dare to impose sactions. In ME "humans" is this super power that everyone hate but don't want as an enemy.

THe closest real life equivalent would probably be if Russia bombed the United Nations.

[CroGamer002]

Shandepared wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

THe closest real life equivalent would probably be if Russia bombed the United Nations.

Russia invades, strong-arms, and terrorizes its neighbors, including Europe, and the Europeans blame themselves.

So actually maybe you're right.

Well if you ment EU nations then yes.

[KarmaTheAlligator]

Shandepared wrote...

KarmaTheAlligator wrote...

But I remembered what Sovereign said about the galactic civilisation and Reaper technology.

The only reason we're still alive to fight the Reapers, the only reason we had a warning that they were coming, was because the Protheans reverse-engineered Reaper technology when they built the Conduit.

What is your response to that?

You do realise we got said warning by accident, right? And even though you're right, they did manage to reverse-engineer some Reaper tech, that didn't help them much, now did it? Sure, you could say that since we got the warning we'll be able to do better since we have more time to do what they did, but how close is humanity -or the rest of the alien races for that matter- to understanding how the relays work?

[Dean_the_Young]

KarmaTheAlligator wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

KarmaTheAlligator wrote...

But I remembered what Sovereign said about the galactic civilisation and Reaper technology.

The only reason we're still alive to fight the Reapers, the only reason we had a warning that they were coming, was because the Protheans reverse-engineered Reaper technology when they built the Conduit.

What is your response to that?

You do realise we got said warning by accident, right? And even though you're right, they did manage to reverse-engineer some Reaper tech, that didn't help them much, now did it? Sure, you could say that since we got the warning we'll be able to do better since we have more time to do what they did, but how close is humanity -or the rest of the alien races for that matter- to understanding how the relays work?

So, what your saying is that we should look to an ancient civilization still at galactic state of the art +/- a few years of dedicated effort (the Conduit), ignore the role their extended study of Reaper technology enabled in breaking the galactic cycle they were unaware of, and only see their ultimate death as proof of the failure of Reaper paths in general. (Ignore the deaths of everyone else who tried their own tract, like the Leviathan of Dis or anything else.)


Since being at the galactic state of the art (and a bit further) did not save them outright, we should therefore destroy the Collector Base (which houses technology centuries more advanced than ours that the Reapers did not want us to get) and limit ourselves to the galactic state of the art, plus about five years/however long it takes the Reapers to get here to get...from a point the Reapers wanted us.

So, if we're quick, and convince everyone that the Reapers exist,, we might catch up to the Protheans before we fight with the same level of tech they did.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 30 juin 2010 - 01:01 .

[KarmaTheAlligator]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

KarmaTheAlligator wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

KarmaTheAlligator wrote...

But I remembered what Sovereign said about the galactic civilisation and Reaper technology.

The only reason we're still alive to fight the Reapers, the only reason we had a warning that they were coming, was because the Protheans reverse-engineered Reaper technology when they built the Conduit.

What is your response to that?

You do realise we got said warning by accident, right? And even though you're right, they did manage to reverse-engineer some Reaper tech, that didn't help them much, now did it? Sure, you could say that since we got the warning we'll be able to do better since we have more time to do what they did, but how close is humanity -or the rest of the alien races for that matter- to understanding how the relays work?

So, what your saying is that we should look to an ancient civilization still at galactic state of the art +/- a few years of dedicated effort (the Conduit), ignore the role their extended study of Reaper technology enabled in breaking the galactic cycle they were unaware of, and only see their ultimate death as proof of the failure of Reaper paths in general. (Ignore the deaths of everyone else who tried their own tract, like the Leviathan of Dis or anything else.)


Since being at the galactic state of the art (and a bit further) did not save them outright, we should therefore destroy the Collector Base (which houses technology centuries more advanced than ours that the Reapers did not want us to get) and limit ourselves to the galactic state of the art, plus about five years/however long it takes the Reapers to get here to get...from a point the Reapers wanted us.

So, if we're quick, and convince everyone that the Reapers exist,, we might catch up to the Protheans before we fight with the same level of tech they did.

The problem is we not only don't have the results of their studies in a way we could understand them (for all we can tell the Conduit is just like any other relay), we're nowhere near their technological advances, so studying the Reaper tech isn't going to bring much to the table.

And we don't know what happened to all the other cycles for those 37 million + years, if they went more advanced with Reaper tech and tried to fight with that or if they went their own way, so you can't say with certainty that one way is better than another.

Although I'm starting to wonder, were the Protheans the only species of their cycle to make it to the Citadel, or did they have allies? It's never mentioned anywhere. If they had allies, the study of the Reaper tech isn't a very viable option since they all failed even with it. If they were on their own, then it could be.

[Dean_the_Young]

KarmaTheAlligator wrote...
The problem is we not only don't have the results of their studies in a way we could understand them (for all we can tell the Conduit is just like any other relay), we're nowhere near their technological advances, so studying the Reaper tech isn't going to bring much to the table.

Except, of course, that the game and lore tells us that it can bring much to the table. In the game (the medium that matters most), we are told that the Collector Base would be equivalent to the Mars Cache. The Mars pulled near instant dividends: within a year humanity had FTL travel, and within two it was colonizing outside Sol.

Unrealistic, perhaps, but that is the lore backstory which supports the game-given claim of the benefits of the Collector Base. The Thannix Cannon was learned and remade, EDI was developed, within two years of Sovereign's death. Given other aspects of time frame (the years for the Krogan Genophage cure to be remade and actually be years, for example), there is plenty of time for the Collector Base to be stuided... or else most of our choices are irrlevant, at which point there is no harm trying.

Oh, and the Conduit is a shorter-range one-way relay.


The things about 'Reaper technology = bad' argument is that Sovereign was not speaking metaphorically: he was also very much speaking literally. The paths the Reapers guided were the Relays to the Citadel, which was the trap to decapitate and paralyze the galactic government. It was not that 'Reaper technology = defeat': unless you define Reaper technology so narrowly that it is meaningless, the Reaper trap dependended on measuring relative tech progression on a wide spectrum, not exact technologies.

We have varied species like the Citadel species (in which species like Humanity or the Quarians have developed technologies other species have not: stealth cruisers, fighter carriers, the Geth). All species in the current galaxy can undisputably be called as relying on Reaper tech, and this is what they will be fighting the Reapers with as well: any tech progression from this point here remains extensions of Reaper lines. If we go back to the Protheans, we also see they were not like us: Prothean technology was even further ahead in some ways, with their beacons being mind-interfaces the likes we have nothing similar to. Further back, a billion years ago, we have the Leviathan of Dis, a race/species that created biological starships, something nothing in the current galaxy does.

All of these species are within the Reaper trap in regards to development lines, despite widly different approaches and variations. All failed. There isn't some single Reaper path up the mountain and all others are safe: the Reaper trap is based on how high up that hill you are before rolling a bolder down on you. Stepping sideways at this point isn't going move us out of the way or put us any closer to the source of the boulders: moving forward will put us in a better position to stop them before they pick up more and more speed and momentum.

And we don't know what happened to all the other cycles for those 37 million + years, if they went more advanced with Reaper tech and tried to fight with that or if they went their own way, so you can't say with certainty that one way is better than another.

Then why did you try and use that ignorance as proof that the Collector Base was meaningless?

While we can't 'know' what happened, we can make very educated guesses given what we are told and, by extension, what we are not told. We are told the Reaper cycle worked flawlessly countless times. We are given every impression that the Protheans were unique in their defiance, that their manipulations ever so slightly thwarted the Reapers for the first time.

We are never told, implied, or given any suggestion that any species ever did as much as the Protheans in interrupting the cycle, let alone anyone actually gain raw Reaper technology like the base.

Although I'm starting to wonder, were the Protheans the only species of their cycle to make it to the Citadel, or did they have allies? It's never mentioned anywhere. If they had allies, the study of the Reaper tech isn't a very viable option since they all failed even with it. If they were on their own, then it could be.

In some of the planet scans, it's mentioned that other species were wiped out when the Reapers came. Pretty small species, not even out of their solar systems, but were snuffed out when they were discovered. There were other species, but far smaller.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 30 juin 2010 - 04:50 .

[KarmaTheAlligator]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Except, of course, that the game and lore tells us that it can bring much to the table. In the game (the medium that matters most), we are told that the Collector Base would be equivalent to the Mars Cache. The Mars pulled near instant dividends: within a year humanity had FTL travel, and within two it was colonizing outside Sol.

Unrealistic, perhaps, but that is the lore backstory which supports the game-given claim of the benefits of the Collector Base. The Thannix Cannon was learned and remade, EDI was developed, within two years of Sovereign's death. Given other aspects of time frame (the years for the Krogan Genophage cure to be remade and actually be years, for example), there is plenty of time for the Collector Base to be stuided... or else most of our choices are irrlevant, at which point there is no harm trying.

Oh, and the Conduit is a shorter-range one-way relay.

What I meant on that is that we're nowhere near being able to study it properly (learning how relays work and such) let alone replicate it. But I guess I missed where they said that the base would be the equivalent of the Mars cache.

Then why did you try and use that ignorance as proof that the Collector Base was meaningless?

While we can't 'know' what happened, we can make very educated guesses given what we are told and, by extension, what we are not told. We are told the Reaper cycle worked flawlessly countless times. We are given every impression that the Protheans were unique in their defiance, that their manipulations ever so slightly thwarted the Reapers for the first time.

We are never told, implied, or given any suggestion that any species ever did as much as the Protheans in interrupting the cycle, let alone anyone actually gain raw Reaper technology like the base.

I didn't get that impression, what with the derelict Reaper being there for so long. Some species have obvioulsy fought back. My point was that even when they had the tech to fight the Reapers (be it Reaper tech or otherwise) they still got wiped out.

In some of the planet scans, it's mentioned that other species were wiped out when the Reapers came. Pretty small species, not even out of their solar systems, but were snuffed out when they were discovered. There were other species, but far smaller.

Does it say when those species were wiped out? Was during the Prothean's cycle or was it before?

[wizardryforever]

Isn't it the Illusive Man who says that the base would be like the Mars cache, and jump human technology centuries ahead?  If so, take what he says with a grain of salt.  Remember who it is that is saying this.  He wants the collector base for his own purposes, purposes that he claims benefit humanity as a whole, but you still don't know what those purposes are.  TIM cannot be trusted with exploring new tech, especially given the potentially dangerous nature of the tech and Cerberus' track record on researching new tech.  Almost every situation we are exposed to in both games where Cerberus is researching something, it all goes horribly wrong in some way, including the Lazarus project, Project Overlord, breeding the Rachni, and so on.  So yeah, all the points people make in favor of keeping the base don't really make sense given who the base is going to.  If there was an option to give it to the Alliance or the Council, I might do that, but no way in hell would I give it to TIM.

There are only a few situations that I couldn't do renegade, including: I Remember Me, Project Overlord, Tali's loyalty (the default renegade, not the intimidate one), and sending nobody to escort the crew.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

I personally have a real hard time letting the Rachni Queen live ever. Every time I do I see here walk away and think to myself "am I retarded?"

[SteelerWayne]

Forst1999 wrote...

1)Choose Udina for the council. But that's not renegade, that idiotic!

Agreed.  Udina is a tool.  No way I give him any kind of power on the Council whether paragon or renegade.

[CroGamer002]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

I personally have a real hard time letting the Rachni Queen live ever. Every time I do I see here walk away and think to myself "am I retarded?"

Yeah, genocide good.

[CroGamer002]

SteelerWayne wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...

1)Choose Udina for the council. But that's not renegade, that idiotic!

Agreed.  Udina is a tool.  No way I give him any kind of power on the Council whether paragon or renegade.

I did.
It was incredebly stupid but I wanted to see what would happen.

[Dean_the_Young]

KarmaTheAlligator wrote...
What I meant on that is that we're nowhere near being able to study it properly (learning how relays work and such) let alone replicate it. But I guess I missed where they said that the base would be the equivalent of the Mars cache.

When you keep the base, TIM gives the Mars Cache comparison, fitting what he said earlier. Since that fits with what the game is saying, has said, and has even demonstrated in cases like the Thannix Cannon, while protesting that we can't study the base/Reaper tech inside it goes contrary...

There's nothing preventing the current galaxy from studying the Relays like the Protheans did except lack of interest/political will.

I didn't get that impression, what with the derelict Reaper being there for so long. Some species have obvioulsy fought back. My point was that even when they had the tech to fight the Reapers (be it Reaper tech or otherwise) they still got wiped out.

Name one past civilization implied to have found any technology remotely comparable to the Reaper technology you can take in the Collector Base.

Not all Reaper technology is equal: the stuff in the base is far more potent than anything else we have heard about or been given any reason to assume is comparable to actualized Reaper technology.

Does it say when those species were wiped out? Was during the Prothean's cycle or was it before?

There is at least one planet that was described as being wiped out in 50,000 years ago, putting it in the Prothean cycle.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 30 juin 2010 - 07:43 .

[KarmaTheAlligator]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

When you keep the base, TIM gives the Mars Cache comparison, fitting what he said earlier. Since that fits with what the game is saying, has said, and has even demonstrated in cases like the Thannix Cannon, while protesting that we can't study the base/Reaper tech inside it goes contrary...

There's nothing preventing the current galaxy from studying the Relays like the Protheans did except lack of interest/political will.

Oh, so TIM tells you so... And he's been so completely honest with us the whole game that I'm going to trust him implicitly. Right. Also I never said we couldn't study the tech in the base, I'm doubting the value of whatever is in there compared to the risks of keeping it.

Seems more like a lack of expertise to me since the relays have been under study for a while, or how would they know of the dark switches and all that (which is a recent discovery)?

Name one past civilization implied to have found any technology remotely comparable to the Reaper technology you can take in the Collector Base.

Not all Reaper technology is equal: the stuff in the base is far more potent than anything else we have heard about or been given any reason to assume is comparable to actualized Reaper technology.

True but the weapon that took out that derelict Reaper was a mass accelerator weapon. Also, you don't know what's on the base, nobody does, how can you say it'll be better than anything seen before?

[Dean_the_Young]

KarmaTheAlligator wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

When you keep the base, TIM gives the Mars Cache comparison, fitting what he said earlier. Since that fits with what the game is saying, has said, and has even demonstrated in cases like the Thannix Cannon, while protesting that we can't study the base/Reaper tech inside it goes contrary...

There's nothing preventing the current galaxy from studying the Relays like the Protheans did except lack of interest/political will.

Oh, so TIM tells you so... And he's been so completely honest with us the whole game that I'm going to trust him implicitly. Right. Also I never said we couldn't study the tech in the base, I'm doubting the value of whatever is in there compared to the risks of keeping it.

What I meant on that is that we're nowhere near being able to study it
properly

Inconvenient past statements aside...

TIM tells you this after you give him the base: he has no need to lie about the gains you have given him, and at this time TIM has the narrative authority behind him in that the Big Choice of the game is being set up.

Moreover, TIM actually doesn't lie that much. What he states is pretty factual and can be relied upon. It's the unspoken implications you have to watch out for, but in this case it's not an unspoken insinuation.

Seems more like a lack of expertise to me since the relays have been under study for a while, or how would they know of the dark switches and all that (which is a recent discovery)?

How do any advances get done in fields that aren't major focuses of research? Some people will study regardless.

Matriarch Aethyta's story of why she was laughed off the planet is our clue that the decision not to pursue such a project of making new relays was a matter blocked by politics/culture, not impassible ignorance (or else she would not have proposed learning to do so).

True but the weapon that took out that derelict Reaper was a mass accelerator weapon.

Which would be considered Reaper tech. So, another point for Reaper tech being necessary to fight with.

Also, you don't know what's on the base, nobody does, how can you say it'll be better than anything seen before?

EDI knows, because she's in the systems. And EDI tells TIM, and TIM tells us at a point we can believe him. After all, if there wasn't potent technology on board he wouldn't have cause to try and stop us otherwise: you yourself have accepted this presumption of value in taking the position that Cerberus would be able to abuse the advanced technology.

The game tells us it has great potential benefit, which it never disputes. We can trust the set up for the game-ending choice because the Mass Effect series doesn't like unclear ending choices: it is much more relevant to bring up why would you doubt that the Collector Base has much advanced technology.

We know the Collector Base has all the Collector technology ever seen or implied, which is undisputably powerful in its own: detecting stealth frigates, powerful new weaponry, genetic mastery, husk weaponry, and more. We also see for ourselves that the Collector Base has the knowledge/capability of producing Reapers: if it can produce Reapers, it can produce Reaper parts (weapons, shields, component parts), and we know that those technologies can be replicated without need for human smoothies.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 30 juin 2010 - 08:41 .

[KarmaTheAlligator]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Inconvenient past statements aside...

TIM tells you this after you give him the base: he has no need to lie about the gains you have given him, and at this time TIM has the narrative authority behind him in that the Big Choice of the game is being set up.

Moreover, TIM actually doesn't lie that much. What he states is pretty factual and can be relied upon. It's the unspoken implications you have to watch out for, but in this case it's not an unspoken insinuation.

I said we couldn't study the tech proprely, not that we'd be unable to do it at all. That's why the results would be of dubious usefulness.

As for TIM, considering how often he "omits" the truth or just bandy words, he's less than trustworthy in my opinion.

we know that those technologies can be replicated without need for human smoothies.

Where did you see that?

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]KarmaTheAlligator wrote...

As for TIM, considering how often he "omits" the truth or just bandy words, he's less than trustworthy in my opinion.
[quote]Omits hardly needs scare quotes, considering that's exactly what he does. How many times has TIM outright lied to you? Moreover, what grounds do you have to say that TIM is lying when I just gave a gread deal of technology we know the base has, validating TIM's claim? Tim's credibility is quite frankly irrelevant to what we know independent of anything he says. Are you going to deny that the base has the knowledge to make a Reaper and Reaper systems? Do the advanced Collector Technologies suddenly vanish now that TIM bids us to keep them?

[quote]
Where did you see that?
[/quote]All technology in the mass effect universe, which is derived from Reaper tech. You know, e-zero, kinetic barriers, all those Reaper lines of technology...

More specifically, mass relays (the Conduit), Thannix cannons, and similar derivatives. Nor is there anything really implying that Dragon's Teeth, the Relays, or indeed the Citadel itself is made out of and has to be made out of biological smoothies.

It's the same reason you can build a gun without iron, a car without steel, or a wagon without wood: technology goes far beyond the construction material.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 30 juin 2010 - 09:08 .

[crooked]

That's how you know a game has drawn you in, when you can't bring yourself to make certain disicions

I for one, have never been able to kill the rachni queen. Even when roleplaying a full-blown renegade, I couldn't think of any justification for doing that. For me playing renegade isn't about taking every single renegade option, that would make your character a total psychopath. When I play a renegade, he's morals are all about respect, aggression and opportunism, which is why I always take earth-born for my renegade chars. So in that spirit, pro-human context actually makes sense for my character, which is why im spreading my legs for the illusive man this playthrough



I actually felt like I was doing the patriarch a favor when I got him killed though. But nothing but love for the Krogan poet here aswell

[CroGamer002]

Well for me is this thread pointless now since I did all Renegade options. lol

[Onyx Jaguar]

Indeed

Mesina2 wrote...

Yeah, genocide good.

Indeed



hooray out of context