250 réponses à ce sujet

[Felene]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Felene wrote...

We already got Legion, we don't need Dr. Archer's research when Legion can do just fine.

Assuming Legion even works that way and that you already did his quest, else your metagaming.

Point taken, edit my previous post.

[Christmas Ape]

Dave of Canada wrote...
It proved Geth could be controlled and used. Considering how the project started most likely earlier when Heretic Geth were rampaging through the galaxy, the ability of converting them into shock troopers to fight the Reapers and saving the lives of all the human / alien soldiers in the war against the Reapers would be invaluable.

That's excluding the weapon / defense capabilities of being able to hack into other ships and taking control of it.

As Archer says, if David is the only person who suffers in the galaxy but bajillions more get to live, is it not the better alternative?

At best Overlord could be considered proof of concept; yes, geth communication is a language and inserting another mind capable of understanding that language into the system will incorporate that mind into the consensus-based intelligence that is geth existence.
But control must allow for input. David was semi-functional beforehand, if I may be blunt. He wasn't really up to the demands of communicating with two or three strangers at the same time, let alone drowning amid the sea of mind created by tens of thousands of geth. Maybe Archer gets shipped off and demoted until such time as a more effective subject is located, but Overlord in situ was a waste.
The argument relies on actually being able to keep those billions more alive. Overlord showed absolutely no signs of progress in that regard, and there's no point pissing money down it in its present state. Similiarly, it is in fact literally David's suffering - his complete mental inability to process the levels of input required - that's making the project a failure. You're asking a man to do calculus while you throw flashbangs at him.
Frankly, given the tendencies of Overlord, I think the dangers of using geth/human/SI interface to override other ships have been well demonstrated. You're just giving them somewhere else to be - remember, they don't have bodies. The geth never did and the subject, well, he doesn't need it anymore as long as he's hosted elsewhere.

[Beerfish]

jwalker wrote...

Damn, late to the party...
Anyway, there are many renegade choices I can't make.
Mesina already mentioned some of my no-choices...

I never kill the Rachni Queen.
Always persuade the Blue Rose of Illium to marry Char.
Always free David (Overlord)
Never kill Samara
Always persuade Miranda to talk to her sister.

The Blue Rose of Illium one ends up being iffy though.  It's one of those 'it seems like a good idea at the time' kind of quests and panders to our sentimental side but in the end it seems like the wrong thing to do.

[Ryzaki]

Oh yeah even my renegade can't tell her to dump him. I mean how many poetry spewing Krogans do you see? Other than that one polite mafia like one.

[Beerfish]

Shandepared wrote...


Which means the experiment ultimatley produced positive results. It was therefore a success.

Not necessarily because a sense of morailty if an important thing to have in our species or at least it is perceived to be that way.  Also other avenues would have to be fully explored before most people could rationalize this.  A further also, funding, public support and non public support are factors in this possible 'short cut' way of thinking.

Sure this obtained some positive results but so did doing lab tesing of harmful cosmetics and such on creatures like rabbits years ago. 

This one is the classic case of the ends not justifying the means.

[Beerfish]

Ryzaki wrote...

Oh yeah even my renegade can't tell her to dump him. I mean how many poetry spewing Krogans do you see? Other than that one polite mafia like one.

But she does seem uncertain of what she wants to do, by no means committed and she ends up on the lovely world of Tchunka in a situation she doesn't seem ready for.

(I also almost always talk her into giving the Krogan a chance but I don't think it ends as happy for her as we;d like to think.)

[Daewan]

Meta Ray Mek wrote...

As far as I'm concerned, smacking Dr. Archer was too soft of a punishment.

I couldn't believe that pistol-whipping Dr. Archer was a Paragon action.  I took that with my Renegade, and got myself locked out of the Renegade resolution for Shadow Broker, which I did right afterwards.  But there was no way in Hell my Renegade wasn't going to give Dr. Archer something.  He deserved a good, old-fashioned, gang-style beating, in my Renegade's opinion.

My Renegade would have given the base to Cerberus, but Garrus disagreed with it, so :wub: BOOM!
She also would have killed the Rachni Queen, but the talking bug was kind of cool, so she kept it.
She likes Geth, even when they are trying to kill her.  Having one on her ship is the coolest thing ever.  It's her toy now.  She wants to have as many as possible.
She also likes Wrex, and would never let that stupid #$@! Ashley shoot him for any reason.  If she wanted Wrex dead, she would have done it herself, in a real fight.

Oddly, my Paragon killed the hostages in BDtS because of a character flaw.  She hates Batarians, and I couldn't justify it.  My Renegade killed the hostages because she didn't care.  So I have no canon playthrough where the hostages are alive.

[Christmas Ape]

Shandepared wrote...

Christmas Ape wrote...
At best Overlord could be considered proof of concept; yes...

Which means the experiment ultimatley produced positive results. It was therefore a success.

The experiment confirmed a portion of a theory and told us that there's nothing we can do with it. It also cost (in all likelihood) several billion credits and the lives of research and security personnel. I don't know where they taught you to balance the books on a project like this, but that's what we call a loss.
I genuinely cannot imagine a project which you would describe as a failure, save the short-lived and ultimately futile 'Is Mercury Really That Poisonous' study.

[Elite Midget]

Mortality has everything to do with a projects success.



For example. Would you try and find a cure for severe radiation poisoning and organ failure by locking a bunch of people up in a closed off room and getting them extremely irradiated? That's wasteful, silly, and does more harm than good.



Overlord is the same way. By compromising Morality they wasted Resources, Manpower, and tormented that poor soul and for what? Nothing! That's what I call a 'loss' and not a 'success'.

[GuardianAngel470]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Seriously!? Seriously do I have to explain this one?!
I... just... really you have no soul if let them keep him.
It's just pointless torture. Nothing good will come out of that.

Your assuming they would somehow just let him on that machine and not take him down and treat him. I find it incredibly stupid that.

My belief is that they would take him down, give him treatment and then start questioning him for what he knows, though they would probably not be brutal about that. I think it would be a long time until they restarted the VI, if they ever did consider how badly it went.

But yeah, I agree with the rest of your points. I consider Shepard someone willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done and stop the reapers, but really those cases have NOTHING to do with getting the job but just being a dick, save for the Council. I would also add the choice for destroying the Genophage Cure.

As for saving them...well that's more personal choice then anything else. As I believe in the system ( despite my personal hatred for the Councilors )

And I thought paragons were the naive ones. Did you ever let Cerberus have veetor? That is the one part that bugs me so much about Jacob, he flat out lies.

We won't hurt him, bull crap. he should have known better.

[GuardianAngel470]

Beerfish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Oh yeah even my renegade can't tell her to dump him. I mean how many poetry spewing Krogans do you see? Other than that one polite mafia like one.

But she does seem uncertain of what she wants to do, by no means committed and she ends up on the lovely world of Tchunka in a situation she doesn't seem ready for.

(I also almost always talk her into giving the Krogan a chance but I don't think it ends as happy for her as we;d like to think.)

I agree. I was always conflicted by that sidequest. On the one hand, Char really did seem to care and from his dialog on Tuchanka he doesn't seem malicious, just a bit ignorant.

On the other, that asari really seemed to be upset by her surroundings, and I feel almost like I set her up for trouble.

Also, to the OP, I destroy the Heretics all the time. Rewrite is worse than death in my opinion. I also didn't want to risk jeopardizing Legion's geth for a numerical gain that was too small to be significant.

[Beerfish]

Shandepared wrote...

Beerfish wrote...


Not necessarily because a sense of morailty...

Morality has absolutely no bearing on the success or failure of an experiment.

Of course it doesn't, none at all, I agree. 

It has a monumentally huge bearing on continuation of a series of experiments or the actual use of the success of the experiment.  If the moral compass says, 'hey that works but not at the cost.' then that project will ultimately not be fruitful.

[jwalker]

Shandepared wrote...

Meta Ray Mek wrote...

As someone who has an adult, autistic brother -who is much like David- I could not, cannot and NEVER will accept ANY justification for Overlord, period.

Your objectivity is compromised. Your opinion must therefore be disregarded. I am so sorry.

Says who ? You ? Sure.

Anyway, I'm not in Ray Mek's position and I think too the whole thing was inhuman and disgusting.

[Dean_the_Young]

War is inhumane and disgusting, yet we recognize it as a necessity at times.



The Geth have been a threat in the recent past, and they remain a potent force regardless. If you don't know about the Heretic split, then the Geth are an ally of the Reapers you will be fighting when the war comes. Losing then will be far more than just disgusting.

[Dean_the_Young]

Meta Ray Mek wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

CalJones wrote...

Torturing someone who is mentally handicapped like that...jamming his eyes open so he can't blink, impaling his arms, sticking tubes down his throat. C'mon.

Many lives can be saved because of his suffering. It's worth it. You've got to look at the big picture.

No.

Never.

As someone who has an adult, autistic brother -who is much like David- I could not, cannot and NEVER will accept ANY justification for Overlord, period.

Fictional as it was, it was inhuman, horrible, unconcisable, horrific, disgusting and a violation of a person's dignity.

As far as I'm concerned, smacking Dr. Archer was too soft of a punishment.

Do you think that Cerberus, knowing that it is possible, won't search out and throw in other similar autistics in hopes of recreating the progress?

David is rare. It might take many years to find someone close to as suited as him. And doubtless many more autistics.

That's a lot of autistics that will be thrown in, until someone produces results. A lot more than one person.


So, do you think you stopped Overlord?

[Kaiser Shepard]

I never got why it wasn't possible to tie up all loose ends concerning Overlord and just kill Gavin or -"ideally"- both Archer brothers. Having either alive is still a huge security risk.

[Ryzaki]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

I never got why it wasn't possible to tie up all loose ends concerning Overlord and just kill Gavin or -"ideally"- both Archer brothers. Having either alive is still a huge security risk.

Killing David should be considered a mercy kill. And yes my Paragon Shep probably would've killed both of them. David quickly and Gavin would've been kicked off the nearest rooftop. Or thrown in a lava pit. 

[Dean_the_Young]

If you intend to kill someone, kill them and get over with it.



Protracted deaths for effect have the same corrosive effect as beating someone for punishment.

[Inquisitor Recon]

All killing either of them accomplishes is destroying any useful information that may have come from Overlord. A complete waste. What Dr. Archer did was wrong, but I wasn't going to throw away whatever useful may have come from that experiment.

[brfritos]

Late to the party too, but...

1 - Kill the colonists and Shiala, destroying the colony in the process.

2 - Let the Asari reject Char (albeit I think you are screwing with her in the end. Living in Tuchanka..brrr LOL)

3 - Let Cerberus keep David, there isn't any justification whatsoever for it. No matter how you try.

4 - Give the gun so Jacob's father can kill himself. I arrest him, so he can experiment a lot of shower moments in the prison (he's a rapist after all) or let the survivors kill him (let's not deny revenge for those who suffer).

5 - Use the renegade option with the Hanar preacher on the Citadel. And I hate religion, BTW.

[FuturePasTimeCE]

what happens to the guy on omega if you don't interrupt him?