64 réponses à ce sujet

[JaegerBane]

Kronner wrote...
You claimed Scimitar outdamages Claymore, which is a BS no matter what YOU think about the reload trick. But yeah, I am done. I just could not help not to react to such nonsense you posted.

Uh... the scimitar does actually outdamage the claymore...  it's been tested....

[Kronner]

JaegerBane wrote...

Kronner wrote...
You claimed Scimitar outdamages Claymore, which is a BS no matter what YOU think about the reload trick. But yeah, I am done. I just could not help not to react to such nonsense you posted.

Uh... the scimitar does actually outdamage the claymore...  it's been tested....

No, crucial did not use the reload trick, that makes Claymore much worse than it is when you use it.
Just watch sinosleep's video, or test it for yourself, Claymore simply does the most damage in the game, not on paper, using formula that is not close to in-game behaviour. I am not saying Claymore is hands down the best shotgun, just that it does the most damage, that's it.

Omicrone wrote...

Damage per second doesn't mean anything
in game, especially on insanity. What DPS would translate to in-game is
Shepard taking no damage, pointing and shooting a shotgun in a single
enemy with a zillion HP, all pellets of the shotgun hitting and having
infinite ammo. Is there such a situation in game? I'll let you answer
this rhetorical question.

Why Claymore is better than Scimitar?
Cause with 1 shot you take out 1 bad guy, leaving 1 less to shoot at
Shepard, thus increasing your survivability and the overall speed at
which you can continue shooting at the baddies. Scimitar only shines
cause with 1 or 2 shots you can strip enemies' defences and set up a
biotic combo. Claymore is useless for biotic combos cause 1 shot is 1
kill, it's pretty difficult to strip defences unless you're watching
your distance from the enemy.

Ditto for the bolded part.

Modifié par Kronner, 30 juin 2010 - 05:15 .

[JaegerBane]

Kronner wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...
Uh... the scimitar does actually outdamage the claymore...  it's been tested....

No, crucial did not use the reload trick, that makes Claymore much worse than it is when you use it.

So what? Let's not forget the reload trick is still an exploit, plain and simple. It is not a legitimate characteristic of the weapon. If I go in and mod the files so that the Scimitar does more damage than the Cain, does that mean the Scimitar rules all?

Sinosleep's shotgun video on Tuchanka isn't really a great example, in any case - for some reason he decides to include melee attacks as well, apparently without realising that they bias the results towards single shot weapons...

[Kronner]

JaegerBane wrote...

So what? Let's not forget the reload trick is still an exploit, plain and simple. It is not a legitimate characteristic of the weapon. If I go in and mod the files so that the Scimitar does more damage than the Cain, does that mean the Scimitar rules all?

Sinosleep's shotgun video on Tuchanka isn't really a great example, in any case - for some reason he decides to include melee attacks as well, apparently without realising that they bias the results towards single shot weapons...

You call it exploit, I call it a trick recommended by Christina Norman /read here
And I do not care if you mod your game, I do not edit any files, I merely use the tip Christina gave us.


And the melee attacks actually increase your overall damage with Scimitar, that is a fact.

[Omicrone]

You can use the melee reload trick with any weapon, even the widow. The fact the claymore benefits the most from it doesn't make it an exploit, deal with it.

[Neuzhelin]

Just because the developers RECOGNIZE the reload bug (there are MANY reported and unsolved issues) and some use it doesn't make it less of a bug and it is irrelevant that it works on all weapons. Swinging your fist or elbow to reload faster make no sense whatsoever.

Modifié par Neuzhelin, 30 juin 2010 - 06:00 .

[Kronner]

Neuzhelin wrote...

Just because the developers RECOGNIZE the reload bug and some use it doesn't make it less of a bug and it is irrelevant that it works on all weapons. Swinging your fist or elbow to reload faster make no sense watsoever.

It's a videogame, everything in it makes no sense whatsoever. You can call it a bug, but unless you made the game you have no way of knowing if they put it in on purpose or not. Christina Norman called it "an advanced tip".
It would not be a problem to disable melee function when reloading (since you have to complete exactly 60% of the reload animation and then melee to speed it up, they could easily change that variable to 100%), but apparently devs do not think it is a bug.

Modifié par Kronner, 30 juin 2010 - 06:02 .

[Neuzhelin]

Kronner wrote...

Neuzhelin wrote...

Just because the developers RECOGNIZE the reload bug and some use it doesn't make it less of a bug and it is irrelevant that it works on all weapons. Swinging your fist or elbow to reload faster make no sense watsoever.

It's a videogame, everything in it makes no sense whatsoever. You can call it a bug, but unless you made the game you have no way of knowing if they put it in on purpose or not. Christina Norman called it "an advanced tip".
It would not be a problem to disable melee function when reloading (since you have to complete exactly 60% of the reload animation and then melee to speed it up, they could easily change that variable to 100%), but apparently devs do not think it is a bug.

So you think that it is in some way intended by the writers of the ME universe to reload weapons faster with a mellee swing? Come on that is very poor rationalization bordering with denial. So what if 1 developer uses euphomisms to call a bug for "an advanced tip" to exploit the game engine....

Modifié par Neuzhelin, 30 juin 2010 - 06:12 .

[Neuzhelin]

Omicrone wrote...

Damage per second doesn't mean anything in game, especially on insanity. What DPS would translate to in-game is Shepard taking no damage, pointing and shooting a shotgun in a single enemy with a zillion HP, all pellets of the shotgun hitting and having infinite ammo. Is there such a situation in game? I'll let you answer this rhetorical question.

Why Claymore is better than Scimitar? Cause with 1 shot you take out 1 bad guy, leaving 1 less to shoot at Shepard, thus increasing your survivability and the overall speed at which you can continue shooting at the baddies. Scimitar only shines cause with 1 or 2 shots you can strip enemies' defences and set up a biotic combo. Claymore is useless for biotic combos cause 1 shot is 1 kill, it's pretty difficult to strip defences unless you're watching your distance from the enemy.

Thankfully the game is not made up of only drones and generic mercs. There are plenty of enemies that can withstand a claymore shot. 

[Neuzhelin]

unintentional double post

Modifié par Neuzhelin, 30 juin 2010 - 06:31 .

[Kronner]

Neuzhelin wrote...

So you think that it is in some way intended by the writers of the ME universe to reload weapons faster with a mellee swing? Come on that is very poor rationalization bordering with denial. So what if 1 developer uses euphomisms to call a bug for "an advanced tip" to exploit the game engine....

Again, YOU think it is a bug. It may be. It may not be a bug. Lead gameplay designer calls it an advanced tip. I do not care either way, still by far my most favourite shotgun. Anyways, this was not the original point, you said Scimitar outdamages any other shotgun, which is BS, but whatever you can keep thinking that.

[Bhatair]

I just use the eviscerator >.>

[Mx_CN3]

The way I see it, a reload trick like that is fine. People used a similar trick in Counter Strike with the AWP all the time, and people take that game hundreds of times more seriously than Mass Effect.



And honestly, this is a single player game in which you don't have to optimize to do well. The verdict is which gun you prefer, not which gone does the most damage. I prefer the scimitar, does that mean I'm an terrible player? No, it means that I prefer the scimitar, nothing else.



And back to the topic: I've used the viper in conjunction with charges all the time, especially when short on ammo or when I can't afford the time to switch weapons. I wouldn't like to play the game based around doing it, but it is (obviously) effective.

[Omicrone]

Neuzhelin wrote...

Thankfully the game is not made up of only drones and generic mercs. There are plenty of enemies that can withstand a claymore shot. 

Yeah, that's a good thing. Unfortunately the ones who can withstand more than 1 claymore shot can also withstand a full clip of the scimitar lol

[JaegerBane]

Kronner wrote...

Neuzhelin wrote...

So you think that it is in some way intended by the writers of the ME universe to reload weapons faster with a mellee swing? Come on that is very poor rationalization bordering with denial. So what if 1 developer uses euphomisms to call a bug for "an advanced tip" to exploit the game engine....

Again, YOU think it is a bug. It may be. It may not be a bug. Lead gameplay designer calls it an advanced tip. I do not care either way, still by far my most favourite shotgun. Anyways, this was not the original point, you said Scimitar outdamages any other shotgun, which is BS, but whatever you can keep thinking that.

The same lead gameplay designer claims helmets don't come off due to art issues.

Kronner, I'm sorry, but trying to paint this as an opinion is utterly ludicrous. When done, the reload trick depicts the gun firing straight forward while the barrel is pointing off to the side. If you actually think this is normal behaviour than I can only hope and pray you never become a debugger.

The actual point here is that you're sat claiming bald facts are BS on account of the existence of a bug which you're fanatically claiming is intended to be in the game. Using the same logic, the infinite XP bug was also meant to be there. All bugs in the history of computer gaming were meant to be there. It's utter nonsense.

There is a very easy way to solve this - just look at the time reduction you get via the reload bug. Work it out as a percentage reduction on the normal fire rate. Then increase the Scimitar's rate of fire by the same percentage. It'll soon become clear which does the most damage.

The Claymore does the most burst damage, which makes it suitable for quick strike Vangaurds. For Vangaurds fighting multiple opponents (or ones too tough to be one-shotted) then the scimitar is the better choice. Going to hysterical ravings about exploits and muttering to yourself that it's all just opinion just comes across as abject lunacy, not a debate.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 30 juin 2010 - 07:32 .

[Kronner]

JaegerBane wrote...

The same lead gameplay designer claims helmets don't come off due to art issues.

So? They are capable of rendering armors without helmets - see ME1 or N7 Armor in ME2.

Kronner, I'm sorry, but trying to paint this as an opinion is utterly ludicrous. When done, the reload trick depicts the gun firing straight forward while the barrel is pointing off to the side. If you actually think this is normal behaviour than I can only hope and pray you never become a debugger.

Even if it was a bug, I do not care. But you say it is a bug based on what? Your personal, biased opinion, OK thanks I just do not care what you think. Sure, the "60% of the reload animation MUST be completed" condition is just an accident, a bug. Maybe being able to pick a Sniper Rifle is a bug too? I think it is not normal for Vanguard, a close combat specialst, to use a Sniper Rifle. LOL

The actual point here is that you're sat claiming bald facts are BS on account of the existence of a bug which you're fanatically claiming is intended to be in the game. Using the same logic, the infinite XP bug was also meant to be there. All bugs in the history of computer gaming were meant to be there. It's utter nonsense.

THIS is a nonsense. Not all bugs are relevant. Even if this was a bug, it is not integral part of the game. Infinite XP bug does not bug me, it is a SP game. Again, what does that have to do with anything.

There is a very easy way to solve this - just look at the time reduction you get via the reload bug. Work it out as a percentage reduction on the normal fire rate. Then increase the Scimitar's rate of fire by the same percentage. It'll soon become clear which does the most damage.

What? Why? You cannot speed up Scimitar's rate of fire. Pointless.

The Claymore does the most burst damage, which makes it suitable for quick strike Vangaurds. For Vangaurds fighting multiple opponents (or ones too tough to be one-shotted) then the scimitar is the better choice. Going to hysterical ravings about exploits and muttering to yourself that it's all just opinion just comes across as abject lunacy, not a debate.

Again, I do not care what YOU think about the reload trick. Fact is, Claymore with reload trick does more damage than Scimitar. Pick any fight you want in the game, use only Scimitar and I bet you anything a Vanguard that uses only Claymore will finish the fight faster. I am not saying it is better, just that it does more damage in the game, not on paper using irrelevant and useless formula that never works in the game.

Modifié par Kronner, 30 juin 2010 - 08:02 .

[Omicrone]

JaegerBane wrote...
The actual point here is that you're sat claiming bald facts are BS on account of the existence of a bug which you're fanatically claiming is intended to be in the game. Using the same logic, the infinite XP bug was also meant to be there. All bugs in the history of computer gaming were meant to be there. It's utter nonsense.

Dunno exactly which XP bug you're referring to, but patches are there for a reason, and they fix game breaking bugs such as the infinite skill point glitch. Guess the reload trick doesn't qualify cause it's still not "fixed". Also, it just so happens that it levels the playing field. You can do it with all weapons (while they reload). The claymore and the widow benefit the most from it because they're single shot single reload weapons. And kronner is right so I don't get why you're still on about what is a bug and what isn't. Claymore with reload trick does more damage than scimitar in any situation. End of discussion.

[Neuzhelin]

When done, the reload trick depicts the gun firing straight forward while the barrel is pointing off to the side. If you actually think this is normal behaviour than I can only hope and pray you never become a debugger.

The Claymore does the most burst damage, which makes it suitable for quick strike Vangaurds. For Vangaurds fighting multiple opponents (or ones too tough to be one-shotted) then the scimitar is the better choice. Going to hysterical ravings about exploits and muttering to yourself that it's all just opinion just comes across as abject lunacy, not a debate.

Nicely put, however applying logic and common sense has proven futile in this debate. There will always be gamers exploting bugs and zealously defending that no matter what rational argument you present.

[Kronner]

Neuzhelin wrote...

Nicely put, however applying logic and common sense has proven futile in this debate. There will always be gamers exploting bugs and zealously defending that no matter what rational argument you present.

Your logic?
You have yet to realize your opinion is not the universal truth. Lead gameplay desginer uses this trick, yet you call it a bug. When it comes to gameplay of Mass Effect 2, I will take her opinion over yours any day. LOL

[JaegerBane]

Kronner wrote...
So? They are capable of rendering armors without helmets - see ME1 or N7 Armor in ME2.

So, trying to claim that simply because the 'developer says this' doesn't really mean anything.

Even if it was a bug, I do not care. But you say it is a bug based on what? Your personal, biased opinion, OK thanks I just do not care what you think.

Actually, I based it on the fact that using the exploit means that Shepard appears to be firing shotshells out of his chest. But hey, in that psychadelic la-la land you live in, I guess that's normal practice.

Ultimately, it doesn't really matter whether you care or not. My point all along is debating which is best out of a pair of items in a game is all well and good, but trying to include exploits into the stats of one without the other essentially renders the debate meaningless.

What? Why? You cannot speed up Scimitar's rate of fire. Pointless.

Yes you can. It's called editing. Let's not play stupid, kronner - anyone on this forum with common sense already knows this is possible.

Again, I do not care what YOU think about the reload trick. Fact is, Claymore with reload trick does more damage than Scimitar. Pick any fight you want in the game, use only Scimitar and I bet you anything a Vanguard that uses only Claymore will finish the fight faster. I am not saying it is better, just that it does more damage in the game, not on paper using irrelevant and useless formula that never works in the game.

You're still clinging to this arrogant idea that what you think has any relevance to what is being discussed in this thread.

Take my Adept for example. I can't stand the light weapons load the Adept gets to use in this game. Hence I edited the class so that, instead of having a pistol, the Adept carries a Widow, a Revenant, and a scimitar. It heavily skews the Adept's relative power of a class into the realm of overpowered. But hey, this a single player game, the devs made it easy to tweak, and I enjoy the game far more because of it. I don't care whether someone on this forum thinks it's overpowered.

But do you *really* think it makes any sense, irrespective of what my views are on exploits and modding, for me to wade into an arguement spouting that the Adept is the best class because he's got Singularity, Warp, Widow and Revenant? The class I'm playing no longer matches the stock class in the game, and hence, it's pointless arguing about it. Similarly, the reloading you're doing does not actually correspond to how the reload is supposed to work.

And hence, claiming that you do not care does not change the fact that it renders the discussion meaningless.

[JaegerBane]

Omicrone wrote...
Dunno exactly which XP bug you're referring to, but patches are there for a reason, and they fix game breaking bugs such as the infinite skill point glitch. Guess the reload trick doesn't qualify cause it's still not "fixed".

IT doesn't get fixed because it's not game breaking, yes. It doesn't mean it's continued existence is intentional. In ME1, Garrus' face still looks like ultra-low res textures and it never got fixed. You're implying that was intentional too, I take it?

Also, it just so happens that it levels the playing field. You can do it with all weapons (while they reload). The claymore and the widow benefit the most from it because they're single shot single reload weapons.And kronner is right so I don't get why you're still on about what is a bug and what isn't. Claymore with reload trick does more damage than scimitar in any situation. End of discussion.

And frankly, I don't get why you're oblivious to the total futility of what you're claiming. 'Claymore is better so long as you cheat'. No sh*t sherlock. What's the next pearl of wisdom? That I'm taller than a giraffe so long as I stand on top of a skyscraper?

Modifié par JaegerBane, 01 juillet 2010 - 04:04 .

[Kronner]

JaegerBane wrote...

Actually, I based it on the fact that using the exploit means that Shepard appears to be firing shotshells out of his chest. But hey, in that psychadelic la-la land you live in, I guess that's normal practice.

What? LOL
Please watch what he does (play it slow in VirtualDub if it is too fast for you), you can fire as soon as the new shell is in the barrel, you just do not have to wait for Shepard to put the weapon all the way down.
Again, you have yet to prove that the reload trick is not supposed to be in the game, maybe it is intended for more twitchy players, just like Christina said. Common sense dictates they put it in on purpose since you have to complete exactly 60 or more percent of the reload animation, that is not just a coincidence. Plus Lead Gameplay designer says it is an advanced tip. You and the other guy say it is bug, really hard to pick who to belive lol

You can use the exact same trick with Scimitar, it just does not benefit as much as Claymore, but the trick is the same.

You cannot compare the reload trick (not just Claymore, it works with all weapons) with editing game files. One is in the game, the other is just you making the game better according yourself. I guess we just have to agree to disagree.

Modifié par Kronner, 01 juillet 2010 - 04:33 .

[jwalker]

Kronner wrote...

Lead gameplay desginer uses this trick, yet you call it a bug. When it comes to gameplay of Mass Effect 2, I will take her opinion over yours any day. LOL

Reload trick: bug o feature ?

If differences are a bit fuzzy, an image can help:

[JaegerBane]

Kronner wrote...

Common sense dictates they put it in on purpose since you have to complete exactly 60 or more percent of the reload animation

Or sweet lordy.

Common sense would say that something that doesn't even have a proper animation isn't put in on purpose, for christ's sake. 

I can understand someone exploiting the game for their own enjoyment, I do it myself. But the idea of someone deluding themselves into thinking that said exploit is supposed to be there because they're so dependant on it sounds, frankly, weird.

I think it is a good idea to just agree to disagree, though. Just please, don't ever go into software development. 'It's not a bug, it's a feature' is an excuse as old as the hills in that industry, and few are still fooled by it.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 01 juillet 2010 - 07:54 .