136 réponses à ce sujet

[Sword of Knowledge]

Eh. Xen reminds me of the one trait in Tali I can't stand turned up to 11;



"Wah, the robot-slaves we made became sentient, and didn't like being slaves! So then we tried to kill them" (which is what "Reprogramming" is by then) "And they kicked our sorry asses off of our planet, but it's still all their fault somehow! Wah!"



Except she doesn't just want get the Homeworld back; Xen wants to re-enslave the Geth by reprogramming (a.k.a. Brainwashing/Murdering) them.



Can you say, WAR CRIME?

[lovgreno]

I would say that quarians have a good reason to dislike geth from their point of view. And vice versa.

[UpDownLeftRight]

Shandepared wrote...

Sword of Knowledge wrote...

Can you say, WAR CRIME?

BILLIONS of dead quarians, most of them civilians. Can you say WAR CRIME? 

Since when did you care about that? You're justifying the killing of other species just for the sake of human dominance. Stop whining like a kid about this. If the Geth are not alive they are not responsible for any kind of crime. They are malfunctioning objects. It's not genocide, it's "**** happens".
If the Geth are not alive then the Quarians engineers can blame themselves for creating faulty machinery, enabeling the killing of their own people and every other death caused by the Geth.

Modifié par UpDownLeftRight, 03 juillet 2010 - 11:34 .

[UpDownLeftRight]

Shandepared wrote...

I'm just pointing out how this looks
from a quarian perspective. I'm also turning the previous poster's
argument back on him. If he can condemn the quarians for a supposed war
crime against the geth then surely he can also condemn the geth for the
war crimes they committed. Just keeping the relative karma levels of
both factions even, that's all.

Depends on the Quarian.

Okay.

Shandepared wrote...
That's
fine, but what does that accomplish? Those engineers are likely long dead.

It accomplishes, in the long run, what your and my continued existance accomplishes: Nothing.

Shandepared wrote...
As you know I don't regard the geth as being sentient beings with rights and I certainly don't think they can commit crimes. At the same time I don't think crimes can be committed against them.

Crimes cannot be committed against anyone because crimes do not exist. Crime is a created word to define an action not accepted in a society.

Shandepared wrote...
I don't in any way blame the geth for doing what they did. The greatest fault for what happens rests with the people who designed them and failed to catch this malfunction early enough, and it also rests with the Council who did nothing about it once quarians being slaughtered in hundreds of millions (and more). A large part of the reason for this is that the Council's inaction was short-sighted on top of callous and cruel. What it did was create an
isolated geth state that nobody had diplomatic ties with and which nobody could effectively spy on. The geth violently secluded themselves from the rest of the galaxy, indicating they had no desire to live peacefully with their neighbors. Beyond this point the geth could have been doing anything behind the Veil and nobody would know anything about it.

When Sovereign made its bid for the Citadel we saw the cost of this; the geth had built a fleet capable of besting the Citadel fleets in secret. This cost the galaxy dearly in lives, material, and stability. This never would have happened if the Council had done its job three hundred years prior. Not only would the geth have been destroyed or brought under control, but millions of quarians could have been saved. Today they wouldn't be forced to endure life aboard ships, sealed inside environmental suits for their entire lives.

It was simply a bad call on the Council's part. Moral reasons aside (since we all know I don't exactly prioritize that) it was a poor strategic decision.

Why should they have helped the Quarians? From a (simple)tactical perspective they should have joined the Geth since the Geth were obviously a superior force. From a strategic and also a tactical perspective the Quarians showed their (against the Geth) ineffectual military and should have been forsaken.

If they would have joined the Quarians they would have been forced to waste resources(lives, money, equipment and so forth) on an ineffective species(The Quarians) and against a powerful force(The Geth). What they could have done was to see who the winner would be and establish ties with them.
Whatever situation the losing side finds itself in is their problem.

Humourously enough, the Geth chose silence instead of diplomacy.

(I do not endorse nor disapprove of any mentioned action)

The situation becomes even funnier when you see how much this resembles the consequences of the Morning War/Geth rebellion.


That the Geth chose to violently seclude themselves from the rest of Council/Terminus space does not necessarily mean that they had no desire to live peacefully with their "neighbours". It can mean that they have no wish of having any contact with anyone else.(There is no reason they should)

Modifié par UpDownLeftRight, 03 juillet 2010 - 05:51 .

[Hulk Hsieh]

Geth, through Legion, is showing positive attitude to work with Shepard against the Reaper.
Xen, on the other hand, isn't.

The choice is quite obvious to me.

Modifié par Hulk Hsieh, 03 juillet 2010 - 07:58 .

[Nightwriter]

Is it too late to hop back in on the argument?

Ongoing wall of text debate round 3!

[quote]Shandepared wrote...

[quote]Nightwriter wrote...

Hogwash. The simple fact is that organic beings do not need robots to wipe their asses for them, Shand, and any desires to the contrary are just indulgences in greed and decadence.[/quote]

They don't need to, literally, but it is more convenient. Robotics speeds up production and when it is made cheaper than manual labor you lower the prices of goods. If you want to go on a crusade against reliance on machines then you've got a hard and unwinnable fight against you. [/quote]

Now now, don't be dramatic. We must not turn me into an idiotic zealot.

Whatever crusade I would indulge in would be against reliance on sentient machines. Which is not only unnecessary but EXTREMELY foolish.

A crusade against reliance on all machines is absolutely ridiculous.

[quote]Shandepared wrote...

[quote]Nightwriter wrote...

If you mean that Xen could use the geth to battle the Reapers, you know damn well the geth will be battling the Reapers anyway, which makes your logic faulty.[/quote]

She'll battle the Reapers and afterwords I won't have to worry about the geth ever again because they'll be under control. That's why this way is better than your way. You love the geth, I don't. You trust the geth, I don't. [/quote]

You think there is such a thing as the geth being permanently and faultlessly under control, I don't.

It is silly to be so vigilant against the possible danger of one sentient race when you are surrounded by multitudes of sentient races who have the ability to become just as dangerous.

Guard against every race in the galaxy, if you will, because the Reapers could use them all. If you seek to destroy the geth because they are corruptible, you must destroy the entire galaxy, including humans. Indoctrination itself is just a form of hacking, so how can you seek to wipe out the geth for being hackable?

[quote]Shandepared wrote...

By their very nature they are far more dangerous. They developed new technologies that inflicted severe casualities on our people during Saren's offensive. [/quote]

What do you mean? Are you talking about husk technology? You know that wasn't theirs. Are you referring to other technology? Which technology, specifically?

[quote]Shandepared wrote...

The geth can survive in any environment and can reproduce themselves on a massive scale. [/quote]

I know, they'll be great against the Reapers.

[quote]Shandepared wrote...

Consider the size of their fleet in regards to anyone else's. Worse yet they are isolationists and I do not trust any nation that refuses diplomatic ties with me. [/quote]

You don't trust the kids who don't talk to you on the playground. Precious. Still, understandable.

But such a sentiment is also ridiculous. Legion - and the true geth - are talking to you now, Shand. After centuries of misunderstanding, finally the two sides of this conflict are starting to communicate. For you to toss aside that opportunity, even if nothing comes of it, is utter stupidity, if only because you are throwing away an opportunity to learn about the geth.

[quote]Shandepared wrote...

When you bring up the rachni and krogan to support your argument recall that you're arguing with someone who killed the rachni queen, killed Wrex, and destroyed the genophage cure. [/quote]

For someone who preaches pragmatism, you demonstrate a remarkable ability to throw away your most valuable tools.

[quote]Shandepared wrote...

[quote]Nightwriter wrote...

Which is morally wrong. And completely unnecessary. [/quote]

Again: subjective. [/quote]

Again, an argument is a battle of subjectivities.

[quote]Shandepared wrote...

[quote]Nightwriter wrote...

- is not enough reason to say that they are too dangerous to leave alone.[/quote]

Good thing I don't have to rely on that alone. Instead I can also point to their conquering of the quarian worlds and the subsequent genocide that claimed billions of lives. [/quote]

You insist on keeping your perspective of the geth/quarian war utterly one-sided.

The geth responded to genocide with genocide - not that the geth completely wiped out the quarians. There were huge losses on both sides. The quarians weren't saints and they weren't the victims here; they may have wound up as victims, but that was their own doing.

Really, the geth were practically children. Children whose parents were trying to kill them. It's kind of sad.

[quote]Shandepared wrote...

I can point to the geth invasion of the Attican Traverse that killed thousands of humans and crippled the Citadel fleet. [/quote]

Heretics.

Shand, you know that not all geth are the same. You have been given evidence they aren't. You have to stop blaming them all like they are all the same.

[quote]Shandepared wrote...

[quote]Nightwriter wrote...

Firstly, the quarians would need to study the geth for a long time, because they have a LOT to catch up on. [/quote]

Apparently they've been doing just that and it is begining to pay off for them. [/quote]

Tell that to the ravaged quarian corpses that carpet the floor of the Alarei.

You have this way of looking at total destruction and death and disaster and saying "Progress!"

I think it has something to do with your approval of Cerberus, as well.

[quote]Shandepared wrote...

[quote]Nightwriter wrote...

The geth have evolved in ways that the quarians will not be able to readily understand, and centuries of the geth adapting to a self-controlled state of being will mean the geth will know how the geth work better than the quarians do.[/quote]

Another assumption unsported by anything. [/quote]

Assuming you mean unsupported (another assumption not supported by anything) I look at new geth developments: hoppers, stalkers, the colossus, the armatures. There are now new breeds crawling around everywhere, made with entirely new technologies, new composite materials even. We don't know how they work at all. We don't know how they've evolved.

It's just common sense - wouldn't the geth, as intelligent, logical creatures, make sure to create defenses that make it very very hard for outsiders to take control of them again? It would be the first thing they would do. They would make their programs more insular and self-governed, so it was as difficult as possible for organics to understand.

[quote]Shandepared wrote...

[quote]Nightwriter wrote...

Secondly the quarians have proven they are not very good at controlling geth. In fact their very studies of the geth aboard the Alarei have proven they're in over their heads.[/quote]

An accident caused by the negligence of one man.

[/quote]

It's interesting you should say so.

The activities of that one man were supported by at least two people on the Admiralty Board and at least a whole crew of people aboard the Alarei. And that still doesn't account for the full number of people who want to take back the homeworld.

The truth is that a frighteningly significant amount of quarians want to retake the homeworld, which means a frighteningly significant amount want war, because they think that's the only way they'll retake it. If they want war, they're going to keep trying to study geth and find an edge against them, just like Rael. And they'll make the exact same mistakes. Their hostility toward the geth is dangerous to the welfare of their species.

[Whatever Works]

One of these days I'm going to join into the wall of texts, but seriously why can't people just say what they say in two sentences or less?

[Nightwriter]

I would, if he kept his faulty arguments to two sentences or less.

Also, because it is great fun and girls just want to have fun.

Oh girls

They want to have fun

Oh girls just want to have fu - un

[Whatever Works]

See, you could have easily said that in two sentences but you didn't. Now wait for my reply debunking what you said using a massive quoting system.

[Whatever Works]

Nightwriter wrote...

I would, if he kept his faulty arguments to two sentences or less.

One should not become thine enemy, unless it pays thy salary

Also, because it is great fun and girls just want to have fun.

These quotation boxes are no game!  Serious business I say!

Oh girls

Hmm?  I'm waiting

They want to have fun

Who does?  Shandepared?

Oh girls just want to have fu - un

Oh I see, Cindy L word games.  LAMENESS, SUPER LAME 

[Nightwriter]

Now see how much fun that was. I bet you feel silly now.

Also, did you just insult Cindy Lauper. Did you. Tell me right freaking now. I will wall-of-text you!

[Whatever Works]

Once you have seen Vibes you cannot undo the damage.



Jeff Goldblum.

[Nightwriter]

It was '88, man. Most of us have put it behind us. Like the red scare.

[Whatever Works]

I'm not saying it was bad I'm just saying Cindy Lauper. Scary stuff.

[didymos1120]

Whatever Works wrote...

One of these days I'm going to join into the wall of texts, but seriously why can't people just say what they say in two sentences or less?

This is a fantastic idea!  Imagine what we could do with all the spare shelf space in libraries if every book was two sentences or less.

[Whatever Works]

didymos1120 wrote...

Whatever Works wrote...

One of these days I'm going to join into the wall of texts, but seriously why can't people just say what they say in two sentences or less?

This is a fantastic idea!  Imagine what we could do with all the spare shelf space in libraries if every book was two sentences or less.

Don't turn me into Emperor Qin now.