83 réponses à ce sujet

[BellaStrega]

Suron wrote...
but you're using meta-game knowledge..of course it still burns...however the PC does NOT know that.

you're basing your decision off of what you know as the player, not the character.

my example was a choice my character made based off facts she knew...not facts I, the player, know.

When I played this, according to my character the facts were these:

* Never trust a shem
* He's begging for his life, not offering a genuine deal.
* There will be retaliation either way. It's difficult to judge which kind of retaliation would be worse, but it is easy to judge that I went into that room for one reason: to kill Vaughn and his lackeys.

[DWSmiley]

BellaStrega wrote...

When I played this, according to my character the facts were these:

* Never trust a shem
* He's begging for his life, not offering a genuine deal.
* There will be retaliation either way. It's difficult to judge which kind of retaliation would be worse, but it is easy to judge that I went into that room for one reason: to kill Vaughn and his lackeys.

Yep.  You've already seen Vaughn's men murder women and even joke about having sex with the corpse of one ("she's still warm").  You've killed several of his men.  You interrupt Vaughn and his pals in the midst of raping your cousin.  I don't see how anyone could think, "Hmm, maybe I better stop now so Vaughn doesn't get pissed off."

[Costin_Razvan]

Vaughn actually honored his deal. The Alienage did not burn under his command, you can blame that on Howe who marched on Denerim with his troops, "reinforced" the garrison and burned the Alienage as retaliation for Vaughn's supposed murder.

[BellaStrega]

He didn't honor his deal, given that he turns the PC in to the guards.

[Costin_Razvan]

BellaStrega wrote...

He didn't honor his deal, given that he turns the PC in to the guards.

He also says that in front of you that he will have to send guards looking, and that you should be long gone by then.

[BellaStrega]

Ah, right. It's been awhile since I played.



No reason to leave him alive, then.

[grenadetaggav]

i never take the deal cause im vindictive and think he needs to die

[Elhanan]

Suron wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

If you took the bribe, and the Alienage burns anyway, it simply validates the thought that you cannot trust terrorists, kidnappers, and corrupt politicians.
This is one bribe I never considered, even at my Dwarven/Ferengi best....

but you're using meta-game knowledge..of course it still burns...however the PC does NOT know that.

you're basing your decision off of what you know as the player, not the character.

my example was a choice my character made based off facts she knew...not facts I, the player, know.

Nope. While playing the bride, I use the knowledge that he is a terrorist (invades the Alienage twice during MY wedding), kidnapper (the wedding party), murderer (his men kill women and my fiance), and that he has abused my cousin. His corruption is widely known. No meta-gaming needed, nor any justification for accepting the funds.

BTW - for those that kept the funds, how did you know to stach the cash? Meta-gaming knowledge perhaps?

[Azazel005]

Suron wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

If you took the bribe, and the Alienage burns anyway, it simply validates the thought that you cannot trust terrorists, kidnappers, and corrupt politicians.
This is one bribe I never considered, even at my Dwarven/Ferengi best....

but you're using meta-game knowledge..of course it still burns...however the PC does NOT know that.

you're basing your decision off of what you know as the player, not the character.

my example was a choice my character made based off facts she knew...not facts I, the player, know.

And in the end, your character got bluffed. Vaughn was using whatever tricks he had left at this point to save his ass, he bluffed you. The others elves can't accept that you left for cousin, your firends bride to be and potentially your own to be raped and found yourself significantly richer for there own good.

At that point you have the leverage of Vaughns life once you leave you have no leverage at all. Vaughn would have said anyyinhg his pride aloud to be rid of you, even then he wouldn't relinquish his prisoners when his life was at stake, that's got to be a warning sign he doesn't think anything of you or your kin. Once you lose leverage he ill do whatever he damn well pleased.

In the circumstances I don't think it's a fault of character nor of in game writing, put yourself in any of the other characters places and I believe they acted pretty truely. You cut your through Vaughn's guards got to him and then... left? That's not going to look good to anyone, despite your best intentions.

[Suron]

Elhanan wrote...

Suron wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

If you took the bribe, and the Alienage burns anyway, it simply validates the thought that you cannot trust terrorists, kidnappers, and corrupt politicians.
This is one bribe I never considered, even at my Dwarven/Ferengi best....

but you're using meta-game knowledge..of course it still burns...however the PC does NOT know that.

you're basing your decision off of what you know as the player, not the character.

my example was a choice my character made based off facts she knew...not facts I, the player, know.

Nope. While playing the bride, I use the knowledge that he is a terrorist (invades the Alienage twice during MY wedding), kidnapper (the wedding party), murderer (his men kill women and my fiance), and that he has abused my cousin. His corruption is widely known. No meta-gaming needed, nor any justification for accepting the funds.

BTW - for those that kept the funds, how did you know to stach the cash? Meta-gaming knowledge perhaps?

yah and Duncan was a murderer and a thief.  a scum.  a may not have raped anyone, that we know of (I'm sure he didn't) but......see how Duncan turned out to be loved by all that knew him just about.

not saying Vaughn ever would have become like Duncan...but..going off Duncan's origins and whatnot.....he should have been killed instead of conscripted.  But no one argues that.

fact is you can't say that you should know not to trust him..he warns that he must send guards and TELLS YOU TO BE LONG GONE...you didn't make it out in time..not that he gave you much..but regardless.

and as said.it wasn't him that burned the alienage..but Howe.

so arguing that NO CHARACTER should take his word..or select what may be the lesser of two evils (what's better, rape or murder? hard call but...we're talking about a handful of women vs an entire alienage full of elves.)

it's meta-game knowledge that forces that argument...whether you want to admit it to yourself or not.

Not saying Vaughn shouldn't die for what he did...but..there's a time and place for that...and at that particular time..given the circumstances..it may not be the best of times for it to happen.

That was the only time I've spared him..all my other characters murder him in the cage after Soris tells them what he did to him and his wife...my city elf spared him only because she wanted to save her loved ones...and thanks to BioWares bad writing...that was **** all over.

as I said the dialogue shouldn't even be there..because regardless of WHY you spared him..you are shoehorned into it being for selfish reasons..and everyone ends up hating you...it's bad writing..end of discussion

[Sarah1281]

as I said the dialogue shouldn't even be there..because regardless of WHY you spared him..you are shoehorned into it being for selfish reasons..and everyone ends up hating you...it's bad writing..end of discussion

Even if everyone was fully aware of why you did it, do you really think they'd care? It didn't work. Vaughan might not have purged the Alienage but Howe did and things were just as bad as if you had actually killed him so in the end they don't care about your intentions because the fact of the matter is that you took money to allow your fellow elves to be raped and at least one of them to be killed and it didn't spare them at all.



Besides, it's a very emotional issue and once everyone decided to send Soris and you/Nelaros in to save them they were rejecting the 'let's do nothing to save the Alienage Vaughan's wrath' option.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I agree that those who took the deal should not really expect to be greated as heroes, even if they had the interests of the alienage at heart (and I do believe that one can have that mindset when accepting the deal). In fact, it's actually good for RP value and it would create a certain element of tragedy in that CE.

[Suron]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I agree that those who took the deal should not really expect to be greated as heroes, even if they had the interests of the alienage at heart (and I do believe that one can have that mindset when accepting the deal). In fact, it's actually good for RP value and it would create a certain element of tragedy in that CE.

not expecting to be greeted as a hero but if you pay attention to what I'm saying..the why doesn't matter..they shoe-horn you into doing it for the money....

if I had returned and was hated because of what happened because I made a bad choice..fine..but that's not the case...it shoe-horned me as doing it for selfish reasons and that was the response from EVERYONE..even your father disowns you.

had I returned to being hated but was given a speach along the lines of "how could you think he'd actually live up to that" "how could you think we'd be safe?" etc etc etc...no it was "you took gold while your cousin and the other women were raped..you're a bad person"

it was bad writing..period.

[Costin_Razvan]

I agree that those who took the deal should not really expect to be greated as heroes, even if they had the interests of the alienage at heart

Perhaps, but I just utterly hate it how it is assumed wholeheartedly that you only took the deal for the coin and nothing else.

[Sarah1281]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I agree that those who took the deal should not really expect to be greated as heroes, even if they had the interests of the alienage at heart

Perhaps, but I just utterly hate it how it is assumed wholeheartedly that you only took the deal for the coin and nothing else.

I know the game doesn't give you the option but...how likely is it that a CE would slaughter their way to Vaughan and have no idea that there might be, you know, consequences for their actions? If you wanted to not kill Vaughan so as to spare the Alienage Vaughan's response or the wrath of his father then you really shouldn't have invaded his manor or, if playing a female, simply left once Soris showed up to save you. It's a little late once Vaughan himself is doing his version of begging for his life to start worrying about not making problems for the folks back home.

[Suron]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I agree that those who took the deal should not really expect to be greated as heroes, even if they had the interests of the alienage at heart

Perhaps, but I just utterly hate it how it is assumed wholeheartedly that you only took the deal for the coin and nothing else.

I know the game doesn't give you the option but...how likely is it that a CE would slaughter their way to Vaughan and have no idea that there might be, you know, consequences for their actions? If you wanted to not kill Vaughan so as to spare the Alienage Vaughan's response or the wrath of his father then you really shouldn't have invaded his manor or, if playing a female, simply left once Soris showed up to save you. It's a little late once Vaughan himself is doing his version of begging for his life to start worrying about not making problems for the folks back home.

your point would mean something if the game LET you leave..you have NO CHOICE but to slaughter them..and can't even leave when you reach the big ****ing gate or leave the way soris came in.

but nice try.

[Sarah1281]

Suron wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I agree that those who took the deal should not really expect to be greated as heroes, even if they had the interests of the alienage at heart

Perhaps, but I just utterly hate it how it is assumed wholeheartedly that you only took the deal for the coin and nothing else.

I know the game doesn't give you the option but...how likely is it that a CE would slaughter their way to Vaughan and have no idea that there might be, you know, consequences for their actions? If you wanted to not kill Vaughan so as to spare the Alienage Vaughan's response or the wrath of his father then you really shouldn't have invaded his manor or, if playing a female, simply left once Soris showed up to save you. It's a little late once Vaughan himself is doing his version of begging for his life to start worrying about not making problems for the folks back home.

your point would mean something if the game LET you leave..you have NO CHOICE but to slaughter them..and can't even leave when you reach the big ****ing gate or leave the way soris came in.

but nice try.

I know you can't leave but the fact that your character goes off to rescue Shianni and the others means that your character isn't more concerned with the fate of the Alienage than with the fate of the kidnapped women. You don't have infinite RP freedom, you know. When you show up you say something about killing Vaughan/taking back the women and can only change your mind once money is offered. What's Shianni supposed to think? Maybe you were having doubts and only gave in to them with the added incentive but your lack of choice - either because everyone back at the Alienage is pretty much forcing your hand or because Soris and Nelaros already slaughtered their way to you - means that it's really a little too late once you reach Vaughan to start worrying about the consequences of killing your way to him.

[Suron]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Suron wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I agree that those who took the deal should not really expect to be greated as heroes, even if they had the interests of the alienage at heart

Perhaps, but I just utterly hate it how it is assumed wholeheartedly that you only took the deal for the coin and nothing else.

I know the game doesn't give you the option but...how likely is it that a CE would slaughter their way to Vaughan and have no idea that there might be, you know, consequences for their actions? If you wanted to not kill Vaughan so as to spare the Alienage Vaughan's response or the wrath of his father then you really shouldn't have invaded his manor or, if playing a female, simply left once Soris showed up to save you. It's a little late once Vaughan himself is doing his version of begging for his life to start worrying about not making problems for the folks back home.

your point would mean something if the game LET you leave..you have NO CHOICE but to slaughter them..and can't even leave when you reach the big ****ing gate or leave the way soris came in.

but nice try.

I know you can't leave but the fact that your character goes off to rescue Shianni and the others means that your character isn't more concerned with the fate of the Alienage than with the fate of the kidnapped women. You don't have infinite RP freedom, you know. When you show up you say something about killing Vaughan/taking back the women and can only change your mind once money is offered. What's Shianni supposed to think? Maybe you were having doubts and only gave in to them with the added incentive but your lack of choice - either because everyone back at the Alienage is pretty much forcing your hand or because Soris and Nelaros already slaughtered their way to you - means that it's really a little too late once you reach Vaughan to start worrying about the consequences of killing your way to him.

you.  can't.  leave.  you go off to "rescue" them.  because.  you. HAVE TO.

again..that's what happens yes.  but your point is invalid because you are given NO CHOICE in the matter till you reach vaughn...on whether to leave or kill him.

but keep it comin if you must.

[JowyXXV]

C'mon.



You let your family and brides-to-be get raped? Of course everyone's going to snub you and think you're the world's biggest ahole no matter how honorable your intentions were.

[Sarah1281]

Suron wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Suron wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I agree that those who took the deal should not really expect to be greated as heroes, even if they had the interests of the alienage at heart

Perhaps, but I just utterly hate it how it is assumed wholeheartedly that you only took the deal for the coin and nothing else.

I know the game doesn't give you the option but...how likely is it that a CE would slaughter their way to Vaughan and have no idea that there might be, you know, consequences for their actions? If you wanted to not kill Vaughan so as to spare the Alienage Vaughan's response or the wrath of his father then you really shouldn't have invaded his manor or, if playing a female, simply left once Soris showed up to save you. It's a little late once Vaughan himself is doing his version of begging for his life to start worrying about not making problems for the folks back home.

your point would mean something if the game LET you leave..you have NO CHOICE but to slaughter them..and can't even leave when you reach the big ****ing gate or leave the way soris came in.

but nice try.

I know you can't leave but the fact that your character goes off to rescue Shianni and the others means that your character isn't more concerned with the fate of the Alienage than with the fate of the kidnapped women. You don't have infinite RP freedom, you know. When you show up you say something about killing Vaughan/taking back the women and can only change your mind once money is offered. What's Shianni supposed to think? Maybe you were having doubts and only gave in to them with the added incentive but your lack of choice - either because everyone back at the Alienage is pretty much forcing your hand or because Soris and Nelaros already slaughtered their way to you - means that it's really a little too late once you reach Vaughan to start worrying about the consequences of killing your way to him.

you.  can't.  leave.  you go off to "rescue" them.  because.  you. HAVE TO.

again..that's what happens yes.  but your point is invalid because you are given NO CHOICE in the matter till you reach vaughn...on whether to leave or kill him.

but keep it comin if you must.

You keep emphasizing 'you can't leave' like I'm arguing that that's an option. By the time your choice comes up, though, it is a little late for anyone who isn't aware of your game mechanical limitations to believe you're really concerned about not causing trouble.

[Tonguy]

Living in the Alienage for as long as the CE did, it seems rather shortsighted on the characters (NOT the players) end to think that taking a bribe from any human will actually make things end better than they started. Especially when were talking about the life of someone powerful and with enough influence to do whatever he pleases.



IMO, a CE who takes the bribe would have to be pretty naive even if they were more passive and trusting of humans than most elves. I don't see how they could not think that no matter what, humans wouldn't take an offense like that lying down. Not to mention the line of dead guards leading to the Arl's room. Dead Vaughn or not, a crime was committed and justice would want to be served.



Duncan wouldn't have recruited the Elf for their skills alone. When you're fighting the Blight, you want sharp people who pay attention to detail, not willingly trust against the norm.

[Aurelet]

Good intentions or no, you'd have to be a callous ba***** to go into that room after killing your way to him, seeing your violated cousin on the floor begging you to get her out of there, then take Vaughn's money right in front of her.



And then you wonder why she is ticked off at you?

[Costin_Razvan]

I just love it how people only think their own opinion is the valid one.

[nuclearpengu1nn]

so what would happen if you killed Vaughan in the beginning and took all the blame?

[Sarah1281]

GreyWarden36 wrote...

so what would happen if you killed Vaughan in the beginning and took all the blame?

The Alienage still gets shut down but everybody loves you for being a hero and Vaughan isn't in the dungeons.