49 réponses à ce sujet

[Pacifien]

TelexFerra wrote...
Why couldn't Sovereign then just mass a giant fleet and take them by surprise. Them traveling to Ilos wasn't necessary to activating the relay.

I gather the fleet Sovereign brings at the end of the game is all the fleet it has. Not bad for tearing through the meager force around the Citadel at first, but they still have to lay seige to the Citadel in order for Sovereign to get inside. I'm sure the first thing they'd do is close the ward arms. In fact, that's exactly what the Matriarch on the Destiny Ascension orders but the Citadel can't respond because Saren killed them. Without Saren on the inside, the Citadel will close before Sovereign gets there.

Not only that, but Saren also won't be able to use Citadel Control to lock out all the other mass relays surrounding the Citadel. The entire time Sovereign and the geth are laying seige to the Citadel, the Citadel races can mount a counterattack from fleets coming in from the relays.

And Sovereign's greatest protection was the fact that the ward arms were closed around it and it had time to then open up the big relay into dark space without worry of attack. Instead, because he went for the attack without using the Conduit, he's outside of the Citadel, trying to get in, being attacked the whole time.

The backdoor was the safer method, only then a kink was thrown into the plan when it turned out Eden Prime wasn't destroyed and a human had accessed the beacon. No matter, just get to the Conduit first. Even then, the only reason Shepard managed to win was because of the data module from Vigil that gave him temporary control of the station. Sovereign didn't seem too bothered with Saren being dead and all until it realized Shepard took control and was opening the ward doors to allow Alliance ships to attack. Pissed the Reaper right off from there.

Modifié par Pacifien, 02 juillet 2010 - 05:31 .

[Siegdrifa]

TelexFerra wrote...

Why couldn't Sovereign then just mass a giant fleet and take them by surprise. Them traveling to Ilos wasn't necessary to activating the relay.

The geths wouldn't be enough to assault the citadel, that is why they try to mass produce the krogan on vermire, to have enough forces and numbers.

Like i said, until the conduit remain unlocated, there is a way to prevent the cycle to repeat again.
The reapers don't want to be known from the new organic species, because they could be preprared for them and that's excalty why the beacon exist, a warning.

The story take place when Saren search for the conduit, but Shepard ruin the specter status of Saren.
After that, he couldn't go to the citadel uncover.

Reapers use the data from the citadel to locate all the species and their colonies, but Ilos was a secret place for experiment, so, by chance, it became "unvisible" to the reapers.



We can assume that the surpris attaque of Sovereign and the geth at the end of the game was the original plan but it was delayed because they needed to find the conduit to be sure nothing would put in danger again the cycle of extinction, and, because Shepard was a pain in the ass for Saren and Sovereign.

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 02 juillet 2010 - 09:11 .

[Siegdrifa]

* wrong manip, sorry

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 02 juillet 2010 - 09:00 .

[mcsupersport]

As far as a mass fleet taking the Citadel goes, by all information in the game, Sovereign tried that with the Rachni and it didn't work too well. By all indications Sovereign has been trying to open the Gate quietly for over 2000 years. He knew the Protheans had to have done something to make his remote command not work, so first he had to get help, then figure out what they did, then figure out where they did it, and how to counteract what they did, all without giving the races of the Galaxy knowledge of his presence. Illos gave him information on what was done, and to what extent Sovereign would have to involve himself in the opening of the gate. I bet he was hoping he could just fix the Keepers for many years instead of having to involve other organics like Saren who he couldn't totally control. Also Sovereign would have to be cautious of how much information he gave Saren until he was absolutely sure he could succeed and or control Saren because if he was double crossed the information would make the Galaxy races MUCH more powerful and harder to subjugate. Giving Saren the keys to the Citadel and having him turn them over to the Council races for study and disabling of the Citadel Gate permanently would catastrophic for Sovereign and the Reapers.

[HTTP 404]

Pacifien wrote...

TelexFerra wrote...
Why couldn't Sovereign then just mass a giant fleet and take them by surprise. Them traveling to Ilos wasn't necessary to activating the relay.

I gather the fleet Sovereign brings at the end of the game is all the fleet it has. Not bad for tearing through the meager force around the Citadel at first, but they still have to lay seige to the Citadel in order for Sovereign to get inside. I'm sure the first thing they'd do is close the ward arms. In fact, that's exactly what the Matriarch on the Destiny Ascension orders but the Citadel can't respond because Saren killed them. Without Saren on the inside, the Citadel will close before Sovereign gets there.

Not only that, but Saren also won't be able to use Citadel Control to lock out all the other mass relays surrounding the Citadel. The entire time Sovereign and the geth are laying seige to the Citadel, the Citadel races can mount a counterattack from fleets coming in from the relays.

And Sovereign's greatest protection was the fact that the ward arms were closed around it and it had time to then open up the big relay into dark space without worry of attack. Instead, because he went for the attack without using the Conduit, he's outside of the Citadel, trying to get in, being attacked the whole time.

The backdoor was the safer method, only then a kink was thrown into the plan when it turned out Eden Prime wasn't destroyed and a human had accessed the beacon. No matter, just get to the Conduit first. Even then, the only reason Shepard managed to win was because of the data module from Vigil that gave him temporary control of the station. Sovereign didn't seem too bothered with Saren being dead and all until it realized Shepard took control and was opening the ward doors to allow Alliance ships to attack. Pissed the Reaper right off from there.

truth! hopefully someone who questioned why didnt they attack in the beginning read your post.  but I think that unlikely

[Pacifien]

HTTP 404 wrote...
truth! hopefully someone who questioned why didnt they attack in the beginning read your post.  but I think that unlikely

Yeah, I was kinda disappointed I never got a response from the original poster because now I'll never know if any of my points came across as valid ones to the poster.

[TelexFerra]

Meh. I guess. It still bugs me a bit

[HTTP 404]

TelexFerra wrote...

Meh. I guess. It still bugs me a bit

haha yah at least it is a better explanation than other rpgs.  I mean the main bad guys in Baldur's Gate could take out the main character in the beginning before he ever gets powerful.  But thats the theme in epic storyline, bad guy underestimates the good guy and usually ignores him in the beginning. 

[Zulu_DFA]

TelexFerra wrote...

Why not just have Saren walk onto the Citadel while still a trusted spectre and then activate the Citadel relay?

Saren needed some sort of password, a code, or a key to activate the Reaper recall sequence, that was stored on Ilos, in the "Prothean" Archives. Makes some sense, that the Citadel was not "complete" to prevent the organic races from understanding its purpose.

This "key to the Citadel" thing also explains why Saren could not just go "Palpatine style" on the Council, or "recruit" the councillors "Puppet Masters style".


More important questions: was Vigil what it pretended to be? Why the "plothole" in Vigil's story? What was in the datafile, if the "dozen Prothean scientists" never returned to Ilos? Why do the Prothean statues look like husks? Why Vigil died off immediately after the Citadel battle (after 50000 years of functioning)?

Some hints, that in "3" we'll may be returning to Ilos: Liara, the most important of the squadmates and the only unkillable one, wanted to; and the Salarians (STG anyone?) dispute the Alliance's claim of the planet, according to Emily Wong.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 07 juillet 2010 - 07:23 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Shandepared wrote...

Couldn't they have developed the data file before they ever used the Conduit? The fact that they linked the Conduit to the Citadel might mean that they'd been studying it (the Citadel) for a long time, including the Keepers. As they already understood that the relays link the Citadel they'd already have an interesting in trying to figure out how it works. Once the relays went dark and their empire fell under attack they connected the dots.

Vigil's story is:

Protheans studied the relays and managed to replicate them in the form of the Conduit.

Protheans did not study the Citadel properly and the Reaper invasion was a complete surprise for them.

Reapers did not find Ilos, because it was secret. [Plothole alert: The Reapers did not notice a newly erected "statue" near the Citadel tower, did they?]

12 scientists went to the Citadel to study it after the Reaprers retreated and never returned back to Ilos. [Plothole alert: so where does the datafile come from?]

Unless all this (and the Saren's detour plan) is covered im ME3, than it's all real plotholes. The easiest twist I see is that Ilos was conquered by the Reapers too and the Conduit is their work.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 07 juillet 2010 - 11:58 .

[DESTROYER BULL]

Shepard know about Saren, what he can do?

Saren is a Specter!

[Nerevar-as]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Couldn't they have developed the data file before they ever used the Conduit? The fact that they linked the Conduit to the Citadel might mean that they'd been studying it (the Citadel) for a long time, including the Keepers. As they already understood that the relays link the Citadel they'd already have an interesting in trying to figure out how it works. Once the relays went dark and their empire fell under attack they connected the dots.

Vigil's story is:

Protheans studied the relays and managed to replicate them in the form of the Conduit.

Protheans did not study the Citadel properly and the Reaper invasion was a complete surprise for them.

Reapers did not find Ilos, because it was secret. [Plothole alert: The Reapers did not notice a newly erected "statue" near the Citadel tower, did they?]

12 scientists went to the Citadel to study it after the Reaprers retreated and never returned back to Ilos. [Plothole alert: so where does the datafile come from?]

Unless all this (and the Saren's detour plan) is covered im ME3, than it's all real plotholes. The easiest twist I see is that Ilos was conquered by the Reapers too and the Conduit is their work.

The "statue" was built by the 12 surviving scientists after the Reapers went back to dark space.
The datafile was put together between waking up and going to the Citadel, Vigil also seems to have learning capacity after they left and updates).

[caradoc2000]

Of course it makes no sense. Sovereign even says it to Shepard: "We are beyond your comprehension"

[MonkeyChief117]

ME3 will reveal all. During 1 and 2, the player is not supposed to understand the Reapers' plans.

[mcsupersport]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Couldn't they have developed the data file before they ever used the Conduit? The fact that they linked the Conduit to the Citadel might mean that they'd been studying it (the Citadel) for a long time, including the Keepers. As they already understood that the relays link the Citadel they'd already have an interesting in trying to figure out how it works. Once the relays went dark and their empire fell under attack they connected the dots.

Vigil's story is:

Protheans studied the relays and managed to replicate them in the form of the Conduit.

Protheans did not study the Citadel properly and the Reaper invasion was a complete surprise for them.

Reapers did not find Ilos, because it was secret. [Plothole alert: The Reapers did not notice a newly erected "statue" near the Citadel tower, did they?]

12 scientists went to the Citadel to study it after the Reaprers retreated and never returned back to Ilos. [Plothole alert: so where does the datafile come from?]

Unless all this (and the Saren's detour plan) is covered im ME3, than it's all real plotholes. The easiest twist I see is that Ilos was conquered by the Reapers too and the Conduit is their work.

The 12(possibly more, I can't remember ever hearing an exact count but I may have missed it) scientists studied the Citadel and the keepers for years on Ilos, before figuring out how to stop the reapers.  They then took the previously built Conduit to the Citadel to enact the plan, but since the Conduit was a one way crude gateway they had no way to return and probably starved to death, or possibly ran out of water depending on exact conditions left at the Citadel.  The Reapers are a massive size as in several Km long, so no they may not have noticed or cared about a crude gate receiver less than 30m high.

Saren was also NOT the one who was going to open the gate for the Reapers, it was Sovereign.  Saren's role was to give access and contol of the Citadel to Sovereign so he could open the gate.  This was the reason he, Sovereign, had to be inside the Citadel, "mounted" to the top of the tower during the fight.  The Conduit allowed Saren to take a fairly large force of Geth into the heart of the Citadel and take over control of all the important areas like the Arm contols and the Council Chambers.  Without the Conduit it would have been much harder to do what they did, not impossible, but more likely to fail.  Reapers are immortal, so they don't HAVE to do things risky, they can take very calculated gambles with the absolute highest odds of success, if failure is a high probability, they can just wait another hundred years and try again.

[The Spamming Troll]

did you have a plan when you were 7 years old and frying ants with a magnifier? nope. you just did it because you love satan.



god help us all.

[XyleJKH]

faction699 wrote...

Spornicus wrote...

He couldn't just walk up to the Citadel tower and just activate the relay, he'd be shot dead in seconds. He had all that time in the endgame yet he STILL couldn't activate it in time before Shepard shows up.

why not? the people on the citadel have no idea that theres even a relay on the citadel, i don't think they have men there just waiting to shoot people

my memory is hazy but wasn't saren after the beacons for knowledge on how to activate the relay, and by the time he got it he was known as a traitor?

Indoctronation took time. Saren wouldn't do it, Soverign had to poison his mind. Even still, Soverign had no idea why he couldnt activate the relay himself, since the Protheans successfully stopped the keeper's signal. Hard to say but I bet that Soverign didn't even know what happened or what went wrong.

[mcsupersport]

Saren didn't have the ability to activate the relay. Saren could only turn control of the Citadel over to Soverign so Soverign could open the relay. The only point of Saren being in the Citadel was to close the arms around Soverign protecting him from outside attack and to give Soverign control of the Citadel relay.



The whole point of the program given to Shepard from Ilos was to take control of the Citadel away from Soverign, allowing him to open the arms, and relays around the Citadel which were locked.

[Homebound]

TelexFerra wrote...

Why not just have Saren walk onto the Citadel while still a trusted spectre and then activate the Citadel relay?

Play Mass Effect 2. It gets wierder.

lol anyways, its been said that Saren didnt know how to activate the citadel relay, or even know the citadel was capable of such a thing. He had to go to Ilos to find that out.  Why Sovereign just didnt tell him, well...what 'I' think is, we know from the codex in ME1 that the Reapers left the Citadel and their tech behind so that the organics in the galaxy would evolve and develop technology in a predetermined path...I dont want to spoil anything for Mass Effect 2 but...Can it wait? Im in the middle of some calibrations.

[HTTP 404]

Just_mike wrote...

TelexFerra wrote...

Why not just have Saren walk onto the Citadel while still a trusted spectre and then activate the Citadel relay?

Play Mass Effect 2. It gets wierder.

lol anyways, its been said that Saren didnt know how to activate the citadel relay, or even know the citadel was capable of such a thing. He had to go to Ilos to find that out.  Why Sovereign just didnt tell him, well...what 'I' think is, we know from the codex in ME1 that the Reapers left the Citadel and their tech behind so that the organics in the galaxy would evolve and develop technology in a predetermined path...I dont want to spoil anything for Mass Effect 2 but...Can it wait? Im in the middle of some calibrations.

thats because Saren cant.  Only Sovereign can activate the relay.  Saren can only open and close citadel "doors"

[Zulu_DFA]

Shandepared wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Protheans did not study the Citadel properly and the Reaper invasion was a complete surprise for them.

That doesn't mean they didn't study the Citadel at all. Otherwise why link the Conduit to the Citadel? They must have studied it at least a little bit. My point was that this is an easy way to reconcile this plothole. The twist you suggest makes no sense.

OK, what you suggets is fairly possible, only it does not adress the main problem - what's up with the Ilos detour? Why not just go "Palpatine" or "Puppet Masters" on the Council, and do things the easy way?

My supposition is that the whole Ilos thing is some sort of Catch 22.

[The Unfallen]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

did you have a plan when you were 7 years old and frying ants with a magnifier? nope. you just did it because you love satan.

god help us all.

+1 internetz

[Destroy Raiden_]

Saren died finding Sovereign have you looked at him? He's gray he has electronic stitching and plating all over his body not to mention the tubes...he was already dead when he was on Eden Prime just no one knew it I suppose he died while trying to take control of Sovereign only to be reanimated and sent out as it's agent.



He died again at the Citidel it was just permanent because Sovereign too was destroyed.