147 réponses à ce sujet

[Suron]

laradenton wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I do not take it easily at all and I fully realise how horrible the act is. The way I see it however, the alternative would result in countless thousands of deaths and more of our women being taken. Unless someone finds a way to annihilate the darkspawn compeltely and so quickly as they wouldn't be able to retaliate, I do not see how a war for survival with the darkspawn would be less horrible and destructive, than the alternative where a few are sacrificed. A very ugly solution. But it's the only solution I can see until now.

Oh, come on, don't even try to justify that. 
Ewwwwww.... 

lol..I love how idiotic the supporters make themselves...it's worth "sacrificing" a few women to co-exist?  what if you were one of those women..or your daughter?  or wife?

if you truly believe that....while I realize it's just a game..but if you HONESTLY feel that way...DON'T EVER HAVE CHILDREN...this world doesn't need your mentality spread..it's ****ed up enough.

[Zaros]

Suron wrote...

laradenton wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I do not take it easily at all and I fully realise how horrible the act is. The way I see it however, the alternative would result in countless thousands of deaths and more of our women being taken. Unless someone finds a way to annihilate the darkspawn compeltely and so quickly as they wouldn't be able to retaliate, I do not see how a war for survival with the darkspawn would be less horrible and destructive, than the alternative where a few are sacrificed. A very ugly solution. But it's the only solution I can see until now.

Oh, come on, don't even try to justify that. 
Ewwwwww.... 

lol..I love how idiotic the supporters make themselves...it's worth "sacrificing" a few women to co-exist?  what if you were one of those women..or your daughter?  or wife?

if you truly believe that....while I realize it's just a game..but if you HONESTLY feel that way...DON'T EVER HAVE CHILDREN...this world doesn't need your mentality spread..it's ****ed up enough.

It's pretty rude to call people idiotic simply for expressing their opinions . Anyway, who is to say that The Architect hasn't had a change of heart between The Calling and Awakening? Maybe he now sees how foolish his old plan was, and has come up wwith something new now? It's a pretty huge gamble no matter what way you look at it, but considering how we have the ability to mow through 100s of darkspawn without batting an eye, and The Architect is only one (not counting his pet dwarf and pet elf), it's probably not too much to assume that we ccan always cut him down later if we don't agree with his methods.

[Sarah1281]

Even if he had a change of heart, unless he figured out a way for darkspawn to actually reproduce without broodmothers it doesn't matter to me, he's still going down. And I would also need more information on them not tainting others like the qunari merchant.

[Suron]

Zaros wrote...

Suron wrote...

laradenton wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I do not take it easily at all and I fully realise how horrible the act is. The way I see it however, the alternative would result in countless thousands of deaths and more of our women being taken. Unless someone finds a way to annihilate the darkspawn compeltely and so quickly as they wouldn't be able to retaliate, I do not see how a war for survival with the darkspawn would be less horrible and destructive, than the alternative where a few are sacrificed. A very ugly solution. But it's the only solution I can see until now.

Oh, come on, don't even try to justify that. 
Ewwwwww.... 

lol..I love how idiotic the supporters make themselves...it's worth "sacrificing" a few women to co-exist?  what if you were one of those women..or your daughter?  or wife?

if you truly believe that....while I realize it's just a game..but if you HONESTLY feel that way...DON'T EVER HAVE CHILDREN...this world doesn't need your mentality spread..it's ****ed up enough.

It's pretty rude to call people idiotic simply for expressing their opinions . Anyway, who is to say that The Architect hasn't had a change of heart between The Calling and Awakening? Maybe he now sees how foolish his old plan was, and has come up wwith something new now? It's a pretty huge gamble no matter what way you look at it, but considering how we have the ability to mow through 100s of darkspawn without batting an eye, and The Architect is only one (not counting his pet dwarf and pet elf), it's probably not too much to assume that we ccan always cut him down later if we don't agree with his methods.

rude? HA!

I make no ****ing apologies to someone that thinks Rape, Slavery, and Kidnapping are "acceptable" in any extreme..even if the basis for that admition is from a video game.

nor do I give a **** if someone thinks I'm being rude by pointing out what a waste of life such a person is.

[Zaros]

Suron wrote...

Zaros wrote...

Suron wrote...

laradenton wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I do not take it easily at all and I fully realise how horrible the act is. The way I see it however, the alternative would result in countless thousands of deaths and more of our women being taken. Unless someone finds a way to annihilate the darkspawn compeltely and so quickly as they wouldn't be able to retaliate, I do not see how a war for survival with the darkspawn would be less horrible and destructive, than the alternative where a few are sacrificed. A very ugly solution. But it's the only solution I can see until now.

Oh, come on, don't even try to justify that. 
Ewwwwww.... 

lol..I love how idiotic the supporters make themselves...it's worth "sacrificing" a few women to co-exist?  what if you were one of those women..or your daughter?  or wife?

if you truly believe that....while I realize it's just a game..but if you HONESTLY feel that way...DON'T EVER HAVE CHILDREN...this world doesn't need your mentality spread..it's ****ed up enough.

It's pretty rude to call people idiotic simply for expressing their opinions . Anyway, who is to say that The Architect hasn't had a change of heart between The Calling and Awakening? Maybe he now sees how foolish his old plan was, and has come up wwith something new now? It's a pretty huge gamble no matter what way you look at it, but considering how we have the ability to mow through 100s of darkspawn without batting an eye, and The Architect is only one (not counting his pet dwarf and pet elf), it's probably not too much to assume that we ccan always cut him down later if we don't agree with his methods.

rude? HA!

I make no ****ing apologies to someone that thinks Rape, Slavery, and Kidnapping are "acceptable" in any extreme..even if the basis for that admition is from a video game.

nor do I give a **** if someone thinks I'm being rude by pointing out what a waste of life such a person is.

Point taken . Anyway, in my opinion, we won't ever know how good or bad the Architect really is if we don't give him a chance, and, if he doesn't prove himself worthy, then we can always cut him down later. It's as simple as that.

[Sarah1281]

Suron wrote...

Zaros wrote...

Suron wrote...

laradenton wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I do not take it easily at all and I fully realise how horrible the act is. The way I see it however, the alternative would result in countless thousands of deaths and more of our women being taken. Unless someone finds a way to annihilate the darkspawn compeltely and so quickly as they wouldn't be able to retaliate, I do not see how a war for survival with the darkspawn would be less horrible and destructive, than the alternative where a few are sacrificed. A very ugly solution. But it's the only solution I can see until now.

Oh, come on, don't even try to justify that. 
Ewwwwww.... 

lol..I love how idiotic the supporters make themselves...it's worth "sacrificing" a few women to co-exist?  what if you were one of those women..or your daughter?  or wife?

if you truly believe that....while I realize it's just a game..but if you HONESTLY feel that way...DON'T EVER HAVE CHILDREN...this world doesn't need your mentality spread..it's ****ed up enough.

It's pretty rude to call people idiotic simply for expressing their opinions . Anyway, who is to say that The Architect hasn't had a change of heart between The Calling and Awakening? Maybe he now sees how foolish his old plan was, and has come up wwith something new now? It's a pretty huge gamble no matter what way you look at it, but considering how we have the ability to mow through 100s of darkspawn without batting an eye, and The Architect is only one (not counting his pet dwarf and pet elf), it's probably not too much to assume that we ccan always cut him down later if we don't agree with his methods.

rude? HA!

I make no ****ing apologies to someone that thinks Rape, Slavery, and Kidnapping are "acceptable" in any extreme..even if the basis for that admition is from a video game.

nor do I give a **** if someone thinks I'm being rude by pointing out what a waste of life such a person is.

Weren't you arguing for allowing Vaughan to continue raping Shianni and to rape the other women to try and keep the Alienage from being attacked in the CE accepting bribe thread just yesterday? 

[battle hunger]

the ''we can always gut him down later'' argument kinda worries me, how can we be so sure we will be able to effectively find him again if his plan turns out to be malicious, and stop him in time?



Pre-Awakening, darkspawns are mindless locust-like creatures, and they only become dangerous for the whole of Thedas when they're led by an archdemon, someone that can think for them and direct them. If you let the Architect lives, he'll continue awakening more of his kind, leading to darkspawns being led by multiples leaders capable of a though process likewise to an archdemon (though not with the kind of mind control an archdemon can exert but still). As long as darkspawn will need to rape and violate women of other races to exist, there can be no peace with them, no coexistion, so helping them develop into individuals capable of thought processes seems counter-productive to me.



I've let the architect live on some of my playthroughts but only because I like to see every possible outcomes in games like DA, if it were up to my personal feelings, he'd die everytime, not for what he's done, but for the immense threat he represents, and I haven't even read the books that paint him in a not so good light.

[LupusYondergirl]

I let him live once, but almost always kill him. When he says he created the mother he doesn't seem to show any degree of responsibility, just "oh yeah, her. not my fault, freedom made her crazy. what can you do?" And when I did let him live and found out he started the blight by trying his experiment on the archdemon I wished there was a 'changed my mind, you die now, too' option.



Sure, his overall intention might be good, but when he consistently screws up in ways that kill thousands of people without learning from his mistakes or even admitting it was his fault, he's just too dangerous to be left alive.

(not even getting into the broodmother thing, since, well, good god no.)

[Remy LeBeau]

Read the Achitects notes again, and then ask yourself this. Why was he collecting Elves, when he knew that the Warden's blood was key? You think his plans changed? What is the difference between Armaas and Seranni?




Think McFly, Think. I'm just kidding:D

Modifié par Remy LeBeau, 30 juin 2010 - 10:48 .

[thesuperdarkone]

you people think that there are no broodmothers left, as the deep roads are said to span all of thedas and thus there could be many broodmothers left so that no women need to be captured as there are enough broodmothers left normally. Additionally, the architect apparently keeps his word as darkspawn sightings become rare, and some of the intelligent darkspawn are benevolent, as shown if you spare the darkspawn scout

[Sarah1281]

thesuperdarkone wrote...

you people think that there are no broodmothers left, as the deep roads are said to span all of thedas and thus there could be many broodmothers left so that no women need to be captured as there are enough broodmothers left normally. Additionally, the architect apparently keeps his word as darkspawn sightings become rare, and some of the intelligent darkspawn are benevolent, as shown if you spare the darkspawn scout

Unless broodmothers are immortal then at some point they will die and the darkspawn will need to replace them.

[thesuperdarkone]

we don't know the lifespan of a broodmother or if any new ones were created during awakening, so it could take a long time before new broodmothers could be created. P.S. whose to say that you can't simply give up female criminals sentenced for execution to the darkspawn for broodmothers

[Suron]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Suron wrote...

Zaros wrote...

Suron wrote...

laradenton wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I do not take it easily at all and I fully realise how horrible the act is. The way I see it however, the alternative would result in countless thousands of deaths and more of our women being taken. Unless someone finds a way to annihilate the darkspawn compeltely and so quickly as they wouldn't be able to retaliate, I do not see how a war for survival with the darkspawn would be less horrible and destructive, than the alternative where a few are sacrificed. A very ugly solution. But it's the only solution I can see until now.

Oh, come on, don't even try to justify that. 
Ewwwwww.... 

lol..I love how idiotic the supporters make themselves...it's worth "sacrificing" a few women to co-exist?  what if you were one of those women..or your daughter?  or wife?

if you truly believe that....while I realize it's just a game..but if you HONESTLY feel that way...DON'T EVER HAVE CHILDREN...this world doesn't need your mentality spread..it's ****ed up enough.

It's pretty rude to call people idiotic simply for expressing their opinions . Anyway, who is to say that The Architect hasn't had a change of heart between The Calling and Awakening? Maybe he now sees how foolish his old plan was, and has come up wwith something new now? It's a pretty huge gamble no matter what way you look at it, but considering how we have the ability to mow through 100s of darkspawn without batting an eye, and The Architect is only one (not counting his pet dwarf and pet elf), it's probably not too much to assume that we ccan always cut him down later if we don't agree with his methods.

rude? HA!

I make no ****ing apologies to someone that thinks Rape, Slavery, and Kidnapping are "acceptable" in any extreme..even if the basis for that admition is from a video game.

nor do I give a **** if someone thinks I'm being rude by pointing out what a waste of life such a person is.

Weren't you arguing for allowing Vaughan to continue raping Shianni and to rape the other women to try and keep the Alienage from being attacked in the CE accepting bribe thread just yesterday? 

yep..and I figured someone would bring that up if they saw it.

if you actually paid attention to what I was saying...I did not say it was ok..nor acceptable..that vaughn deserved to die but not at that particular time considering it assured the alien being destroyed....again if you paid attention...Vaughn was not the one to purge the alienage..it was Howe.

in other words..nice try..but that means nothing to my point here.

[Xandurpein]

Suron wrote...

Zaros wrote...

Suron wrote...

laradenton wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I do not take it easily at all and I fully realise how horrible the act is. The way I see it however, the alternative would result in countless thousands of deaths and more of our women being taken. Unless someone finds a way to annihilate the darkspawn compeltely and so quickly as they wouldn't be able to retaliate, I do not see how a war for survival with the darkspawn would be less horrible and destructive, than the alternative where a few are sacrificed. A very ugly solution. But it's the only solution I can see until now.

Oh, come on, don't even try to justify that. 
Ewwwwww.... 

lol..I love how idiotic the supporters make themselves...it's worth "sacrificing" a few women to co-exist?  what if you were one of those women..or your daughter?  or wife?

if you truly believe that....while I realize it's just a game..but if you HONESTLY feel that way...DON'T EVER HAVE CHILDREN...this world doesn't need your mentality spread..it's ****ed up enough.

It's pretty rude to call people idiotic simply for expressing their opinions . Anyway, who is to say that The Architect hasn't had a change of heart between The Calling and Awakening? Maybe he now sees how foolish his old plan was, and has come up wwith something new now? It's a pretty huge gamble no matter what way you look at it, but considering how we have the ability to mow through 100s of darkspawn without batting an eye, and The Architect is only one (not counting his pet dwarf and pet elf), it's probably not too much to assume that we ccan always cut him down later if we don't agree with his methods.

rude? HA!

I make no ****ing apologies to someone that thinks Rape, Slavery, and Kidnapping are "acceptable" in any extreme..even if the basis for that admition is from a video game.

nor do I give a **** if someone thinks I'm being rude by pointing out what a waste of life such a person is.

KnightofPhoenix posted his opinion on a thoughtful way that did not dismiss those who feel differently. He was merely stating his belief that there is no really happy way out if the choice is between genocide of a sentient race and allowing rape and violation of women. He was not promoting any solution.

I feel that for me the choice is very easy and I could never see allowing darkspawn to make broodmothers acceptable under any circumstance. I posted that opinion and I was able to communicate it in a civil manner.

I think that keeping a civil tone is a very important responsibility for all posters. By being rude and uncivil you are not just attacking KoP, you are also making this board less enjoyable for a lot others, like me, by dragging the debate into the gutters and making ridiculous sweeping statements.

Even if I happen to share your belief that there is no way to accept that the darkspawn caould be allowed to make more broodmothers, I would prefer if you kept your thoughts to yourself until you have learned to express them in a civil manner.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 01 juillet 2010 - 06:57 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Thank you Xandurpein, for once again being the voice of maturity and reason in these forums.

[Miri1984]

Splitting hairs I know, but the darkspawn are only sentient if the architect makes them into half wardens - before that they are mindless killers. So they are a race with the potential to become sentient who in the meantime go around destroying things and people, raping women and trying to loose huge dragons on the world who will destroy everything.

I would be happy to let the Architect live if he promised not to continue his experiments. And as someone else pointed out - only two more blights to go. It is NEVER worthwhile to sacrifice the few to save the many - the moral slide is just too dangerous. Once you start saying "This woman is bad enough to become a broodmother" you open a huge can of worms. The rules can be changed too easily.

Edited to add: I should have said IN MY OPINION it's never worthwhile to sacrifice the few to save the many... Keeping this civil 

Modifié par Miri1984, 01 juillet 2010 - 07:12 .

[thesuperdarkone]

an example of it would be if you could give a female howe to the darkspawn to become a broodmother. would anyone object? And who is to say that any real criminal deserving of this should become a broodmother?

[Miri1984]

thesuperdarkone wrote...

an example of it would be if you could give a female howe to the darkspawn to become a broodmother. would anyone object? And who is to say that any real criminal deserving of this should become a broodmother?

I would object to giving anyone to the darkspawn to become a broodmother. Mass murderer even. But I'm against the death penalty too - it's a moral stance I take and IMO becoming a broodmother would be worse than the death penalty in any case. 

As KOP said there are some people who would think that it was justifiable in some cases - and personally there might be a few people I would like to wish that punishment on, but I don't think I'm qualified to make that decision - I don't think anyone is, especially not the architect or the darkspawn, not the King of Ferelden, not the warden Commander.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

The Messenger (if you spare him) does show that once darkspawn become self-aware, they can develop a moral compass and choose their own path--away from the Architect, at that. Some turn mad? Well, human beings (to say nothing of the other races) aren't all 'nice people'. Just because 'taking' the women of other species seems to be the only way for darkspawn to reproduce at this point doesn't mean that all 'aware' darkspawn would agree with that course.

[Xandurpein]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

The Messenger (if you spare him) does show that once darkspawn become self-aware, they can develop a moral compass and choose their own path--away from the Architect, at that. Some turn mad? Well, human beings (to say nothing of the other races) aren't all 'nice people'. Just because 'taking' the women of other species seems to be the only way for darkspawn to reproduce at this point doesn't mean that all 'aware' darkspawn would agree with that course.

Well put. My own opinion is that the only darkspawn that I would found acceptable would be one that embraces a moral code that rejects forcing any woman to become a broodmother, even if it means the end of the race. It's not about race, it's about acceptable behaviour in the individual.

[KnightofPhoenix]

But species are "designed" for self-preservation. Of course I would be impressed to see a darkspawn willing to end his race because he feels it's wrong to do what they do to women. But I can't say I expect any of them to do so, even if they are morally aware of what they are doing. When necessity comes into play, it's really hard to judge them morally, even if we rightfully find the practise revolting and horrifying beyond words.

@ Miri. First, thank you for your civility.

Of course, it is a can of worm and it's a very ugly solution. But the way I see it, the alternative will be a war with the darkspawn where they will be forced to take even more women to replenish their numbers in a war for survival. And they will do so indiscriminately. As much as I hate to say it, I prefer giving them a criminal then see innocent women being taken in a middle of a war. It's a less worse outcome (to avoid saying "better" because I really hate this). To make it less horrifying, perhaps those sacrificed could be made into tranquils. The experience would still be horrifying, but the emotional horror that would accompany it would be nullified.

[Miri1984]

It's been a while since I read the books, but doesn't the process of stopping the blights involve putting EVERYONE in the world through the joining? Considering the death rate from that alone, are we even certain that the Architect's way IS going to cause less destruction? Not to mention the fact that wardens technically can't have children with each other, so basically he's dooming us to infertility and death as well as the darkspawn.



No. The risks are too great to let his plan go ahead. I personally don't think the Architect himself is an evil being - but the solution is not necessarily better than the problem in the first place. When I played Awakenings the first time round I tried to spare him, but after reading The Calling I changed my mind pretty darn quick. Even without the moral question of how sentient darkspawn reproduce - which I hadn't even considered before reading this thread by the way - the plan he has is on the insane side.



I don't spare him.

[Xandurpein]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

But species are "designed" for self-preservation. Of course I would be impressed to see a darkspawn willing to end his race because he feels it's wrong to do what they do to women. But I can't say I expect any of them to do so, even if they are morally aware of what they are doing. When necessity comes into play, it's really hard to judge them morally, even if we rightfully find the practise revolting and horrifying beyond words.

Spieces are indeed designed for self-preservation, that is why the sex-drive is one of the hardest urges in man to supress and why sex-offenders are among the hardest to reform of all criminals. But being a moral being is to be able to see beyond instinct.

It is very hard to even imagine how a darkspawn would feel the urge to procreate, even if not sentient, but apparently there must be some basic urge that makes them do it, even if they are mindless. A woman is turned into a broodmother by among other things being forced to eat darkspawn flesh. How do they chose which among them that are to be eaten? Do they willingly let themselves be sacrificed? Speculation about this quickly becomes very nauseating. So it's just a matter of pure conjecture to guess how a sentient darkspawn would feel about this urge within them.

My guess is that unless they are able to free themselves from such an urge they will attempt to rationalize it to the point where they deem it morally acceptable to violate women, not just a necessity for racial survival. Just as pedophiles tend to rationalize away their behaviour too, by convincing themselves that their victims are willing participants. Chances are therefore that there would simply be no common ground possible to find between sentient darkspawn and the other sentient races on acceptable moral behaviour.

I think that any attempt at peaceful coexistance with the darkspawn that involves sacrificing females to become broodmothers would be so crushingly alien to the human moral code that it would be impossible to uphold witthout draconian measures to quell the moral outrage of those people you would wish to save from the ravages of war.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 01 juillet 2010 - 01:01 .

[Aurelet]

thesuperdarkone wrote...

an example of it would be if you could give a female howe to the darkspawn to become a broodmother. would anyone object? And who is to say that any real criminal deserving of this should become a broodmother?

Yes I definitely would object.

[Aurelet]

Miri1984 wrote...

thesuperdarkone wrote...

an example of it would be if you could give a female howe to the darkspawn to become a broodmother. would anyone object? And who is to say that any real criminal deserving of this should become a broodmother?

I would object to giving anyone to the darkspawn to become a broodmother. Mass murderer even. But I'm against the death penalty too - it's a moral stance I take and IMO becoming a broodmother would be worse than the death penalty in any case. 

As KOP said there are some people who would think that it was justifiable in some cases - and personally there might be a few people I would like to wish that punishment on, but I don't think I'm qualified to make that decision - I don't think anyone is, especially not the architect or the darkspawn, not the King of Ferelden, not the warden Commander.

This Mass murderer that was forced to become a brood mother would be an intelligent one in the architect's DS World.

Yeah.....No problem with having an Intelligent Mass Murderer capable of producing thousands of minions....Shouldn't be a problem at all....right?