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[Xandurpein]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

OnionXI wrote...

In my mind, Darkspawn simply cannot coexist with the other races. Ultimately, they have to be wiped out and I have no moral qualms about it.

You have no moral qualms about slaughtering a sentient creature because it carries a (for want of a better term) deadly and catching disease?

The fundamental truth of the Darkspawn is that they are essentially parasites. They cannot exist without the other races. If the darkspawn ever succede in wiping out all other races they will die too. A parasite cannot live without it's host.

A frightening thought is that Darkspawn probably are tainted, diseased creatures still sharing DNA with the the races they are moulded on. The true enemy isn't the darkspawn, it is the taint.

The Grey wardens are also dependant on the darkspawn, as they need the tainted blood to exist, but that is not really a problem, as the Grey Wardens do not consider themselves a distinct separate race. so they are not threatened by the fact that their order will cease to exist, once the last darkspawn is defeated.

That is also a part of the insidious danger of the Architect's plan. He sees the Grey Wardens as a new "race", better than darkspawn and the ordinary races. Once the Grey Wardens embrace that idea, they are no longer the guardians of the other races, but cruel masters that may need non Grey Warden subjects to produce babies for them to replenish their numbers, almost like broodmothers, but in a much less gross manner.

[Costin_Razvan]

I concur on that account: That darkspawn are parasites....though that's assuming they simply appeared out of thin air...which I highly doubt but whatever.

Secondly, arguing the Architect represents the Darkspawn race as a whole is unreasonable. His faction is very small for the whole race....and even if his plan succeeded ( and I say if ) then it would take many thousands of years to achieve.

Thirdly. What do broodmothers have do to with killing or sparring him? We see no evidence of him turning women into them neither in game or the Calling. Yes we do see him make them ghouls, but that was on their choice ( Genvieve, Utha, Serani )

Why would he need to even create new broodmothers for his faction? His idea is to convert his people, so it would be more realistically to say he would convert broodmothers....until he probably ran out of them....which again would take many years and seriously planning that far ahead is impossible.We could very well see two more Blights by then, or something far more dangerous.

Fourthly. Ignoring my other 3 points. I do agree wholeheartedly that the darkspawn need to wiped out. While I would not wipe out the Architect's small faction I would have no issue whatsoever upon committing genocide upon the rest of them.

That said, ( and this is mostly directed at Xandur ). I would be VERY curios to see what kind of grand war strategy you would make for wiping out the Darkspawn...I have put quite a bit of thought in the matter. and I find it impossible to win such a war without biblical casualties.

The reason I spare the Architect is that I know one thing for certain: He will convert darkspawn which will cause another war between him and another darkspawn faction, and is something that would fit my plans to wipe them out since they would weaken each other considerably. 

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 04 juillet 2010 - 09:35 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
You have no moral qualms about slaughtering a sentient creature because it carries a (for want of a better term) deadly and catching disease?

More like because their existence cannot be reconciled with life. The taint is more than a disease, it is spreaded death, it can even affect the earth beneath your feet.

I forgot that last point. Good call.

But I have to say that I would trouble killing something just for being what it is. Killing out of necessity isn't the same as having no moral qualms about it.

The infection of the taint can be circumvented. We have seen a Qunari merchant who delt with the darkspawn right in the middle of their base and he wasn't infected. In fact, he was promised "protection" by the Architect. Whatever that protection against the taint is, it's clear that it does exist. In addition, Amaranthine's soil was not tainted. Either this is due to them not having sufficient time, or it is perhaps a conscious effort made by the Architect to avoid this. If it's the latter, then there might be a way to avoid the plaguing of the soil. But even if there isn't, the darkspawn live underground and they don't need to live on the surface.

No one is suggesting we should allow darkspawn to live amongst us. But to decide to wipe them out just for carrying a disease that affects us while they can live underground in isolation from us? I personally do have a problem with that.

[Costin_Razvan]

 But to decide to wipe them out just for carrying a disease that affects us while they can live underground in isolation from us? I personally do have a problem with that.

Tell that to the dwarves.

[Eudaemonium]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

 But to decide to wipe them out just for carrying a disease that affects us while they can live underground in isolation from us? I personally do have a problem with that.

Tell that to the dwarves.

Seeign as, when the Architect is spared, the Deep Roads become very quiet, we can infer that the darkspawn can withdraw to a much deeper part of the underground. While there would obviously be some conflict, there isn't anytihng to suggest they *couldn't* live in isolation from one another. The (under) world is a big place after all.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The infection of the taint can be circumvented. We have seen a Qunari merchant who delt with the darkspawn right in the middle of their base and he wasn't infected. In fact, he was promised "protection" by the Architect. Whatever that protection against the taint is, it's clear that it does exist.

Ah yes...I wondered about this.

In addition, Amaranthine's soil was not tainted. Either this is due to them not having sufficient time, or it is perhaps a conscious effort made by the Architect to avoid this. If it's the latter, then there might be a way to avoid the plaguing of the soil.

Was this actually stated in the game, or just a result of seeing no evidence to the contrary? Not doubting you, just asking for a reference.

Xandurpein wrote...

The fundamental truth of the Darkspawn is that they are essentially parasites. They cannot exist without the other races. If the darkspawn ever succede in wiping out all other races they will die too. A parasite cannot live without it's host.

Well, I don't *quite* agree with them being parasites...yes, they need females to procreate, but the same can be said of any species. I get your point though...I think I'm just arguing semantics

[KnightofPhoenix]

Eudaemonium answered it for me. The Dwarves can still be isolated from them. I do not see it as an impossibility, as was pointed out by the epilogue slide.

@ Shadow dragon.
Well come to think of it, it might be me coming to conclusions because the game doesn't show us or anyone talks about it.  

But we do know that the Architect seemingly can protect someone from infection. It is entirely possible that he knows how to avoid the infection of the soil as well. We have no evidence of this, but it's a possibility seeing how he can protect living creatures from it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 juillet 2010 - 10:46 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Shadow dragon.
Well come to think of it, it might be me coming to conclusions because the game doesn't show us or anyone talks about it.  

But we do know that the Architect seemingly can protect someone from infection. It is entirely possible that he knows how to avoid the infection of the soil as well. We have no evidence of this, but it's a possibility seeing how he can protect living creatures from it.

Maybe, but a protective measure for a living being is different to a remedy for crops, I imagine. Still, we have no idea how the Architect protected that qunari, so anything's possible. 

Heh...now I'm imagining darkspawn crop-dusters.

[Suron]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

 But to decide to wipe them out just for carrying a disease that affects us while they can live underground in isolation from us? I personally do have a problem with that.

Tell that to the dwarves.

except, due to the taint...they can't just isolate themselves..they still need females to breed...so your logic isn't only flawed but stupid.

[Lintanis]

Architect goes squish every time .    All darkspawn should be wiped out , they are just a parasite that preys on the others races and one you dont want getting any smarter .   End of 

[Jmojocat]

I let him live. He helped me kill the Mother and as payment I don't kill him. He is possibly facing a war on 2 fronts all the races on the surface and all the darkspwn that don't agree with his plan.



You just have to keep tabs on him and wait until his forces are depleted with a war from the other darkspawn and extreminate the survivors from both sides.

[Aurelet]

But of course you never see him again.



Another thing that bothers me is that the Darkspawn in the Silverlite mines were raising Dragons. Getting ready for the next Blight anyone?

[Sarah1281]

Elves used to be immortal until humans came along. Now not only can they get sick, their lives have been cut short and the majority of them live in slavery.

We don't know that. We just know that they had a longer lifespan then they do now but it could just be the result of magic that they've forgotten. Longevity is really a better way to describe that.

Well, I don't *quite* agree with them being parasites...yes, they need females to procreate, but the same can be said of any species. I get your point though...I think I'm just arguing semantics

Yeah, every species needs two of its own members to have children not going and tainting and violating members of another species in order to reproduce. They CANNOT live in isolation forever as sooner or later their broodmothers would die and they would need to create new ones.

[Tirigon]

Miri1984 wrote...

David Gaider has said that TWO wardens cannot have children by natural means. If everyone's a warden that means No More Human Babies. The architect's plan (the one in the Calling) means humanity dies.

I don´t care much for that. In the game it says two Wardens are very unlikely to have children, but it´s not impossible.

[Tirigon]

Suron wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

 But to decide to wipe them out just for carrying a disease that affects us while they can live underground in isolation from us? I personally do have a problem with that.

Tell that to the dwarves.

except, due to the taint...they can't just isolate themselves..they still need females to breed...so your logic isn't only flawed but stupid.

Unless, of curse, there are some transformed female Grey ardens and they can breed the old-fashioned way via sex.

[Sarah1281]

Tirigon wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

David Gaider has said that TWO wardens cannot have children by natural means. If everyone's a warden that means No More Human Babies. The architect's plan (the one in the Calling) means humanity dies.

I don´t care much for that. In the game it says two Wardens are very unlikely to have children, but it´s not impossible.

You know why they don't flat-out tell you it's impossible in-game? Because your source of information is Alistair who was only a Warden for six months prior to Ostagar and who doesn't even know if it's possible for a Warden to have a child or if the child will be tainted (even though we know the answers to those questions). There does not appear to be any fertility tests is Ferelden or else there would be no doubts about whether or not Anora or Cailan (or both) could reproduce. It may be WOG but that doesn't mean that it's not true.

Admittedly, you can't really factor the Architect's plan in the Calling into your Wardens decision because you don't know what it is and you don't know that it is not possible 'by normal means' for two GW to reproduce but that doesn't mean that if his Calling plan came to pass that life as we know it would end since there would be no more children...unless they found out one of those 'not by normal means' ways and were able to use it often enough and reliably enough to sustain the population size they need.

[Miri1984]

Anything that threatens fertility is dangerous as far as species survival is concerned. There's a reason women weren't allowed to fight in the front lines in most wars and cultures (not just the obvious size/strength one).

[Tirigon]

Miri1984 wrote...

Anything that threatens fertility is dangerous as far as species survival is concerned. There's a reason women weren't allowed to fight in the front lines in most wars and cultures (not just the obvious size/strength one).

This is typical evolution stuff. It makes sense for vermin to reproduce as fast as possible, but I believe a highly evolved species should stop breeding just for the sake of numbers, they should rather have less individuals with much better living conditions.

[Miri1984]

Tirigon wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

Anything that threatens fertility is dangerous as far as species survival is concerned. There's a reason women weren't allowed to fight in the front lines in most wars and cultures (not just the obvious size/strength one).

This is typical evolution stuff. It makes sense for vermin to reproduce as fast as possible, but I believe a highly evolved species should stop breeding just for the sake of numbers, they should rather have less individuals with much better living conditions.

I agree. But the elves and the dwarves are near extinction any way - the warden thing would probably kill them off completely. It comes down to choosing one race over another.

Still this is all metagaming. I actually let Anders and Sigrun talk me out of sparing the architect. It's a pity the mother's about because I would have liked more information before making the decision. Still, the mother was the architect's fault!

[Tirigon]

Miri1984 wrote...

Still, the mother was the architect's fault!

The architect fought her.

[Sarah1281]

Tirigon wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

Still, the mother was the architect's fault!

The architect fought her.

After he created her and lost control of her.

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

Architect goes down every time no questions asked. I'm sorry but darkspawn are not people they have no humanity or souls that is why a Grey Warden must do the killing or a Dark Ritual. I have no problem enforcing genocide on them. It is us or them simple as that.

[Costin_Razvan]

Did it ever occur to you all that do kill him that maybe sparring him would go with your plans to commit genocide upon the Darkspawn/ They go along with mine quite smoothly.

[Sarah1281]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Did it ever occur to you all that do kill him that maybe sparring him would go with your plans to commit genocide upon the Darkspawn/ They go along with mine quite smoothly.

Perhaps you could elaborate? 

[Costin_Razvan]

The Architect has already proven his plan will lead to infighting among the Darkspawn. I believe he is simply incapable of uniting all those he would transform under him. He might win in the following war, he might not ( and then your problem with him is solved, for even those that killed him would eventually start fighting among themselves and without his knowledge there would be no more disciples created ).

If he does win then his victory will weaken the Darkspawn as a whole, making it easier for you to destroy them ( just wait some years, maybe even a few decades ).

That was the reasoning of my choice honestly. I do not care so much about the whole Broodmother argument people are waving around here ( I am perfectly willing to sacrifice the few for the many as it is ) but I simply cannot see a lasting peace with the Darkspawn ever developing. I am willing to accept a short reprise - maker knows the Dwarves need it - but I will be damned before I let them stay in the Deep Roads even in Isolation. ( the fact that my main PC is a dwarf who deeply values the his people culture and Ancient Empire always played a major role. I fell for Branka's : The anvil will let us reclaim our Glory, because even mad as she is I could not deny that a Golem Army would be damned helpful for the Dwarves to win battles )

Knight might be against committing Genocide on them, but I am not. Considering what things they have for the last thousands of years I do not bloody care, nor do I care that they were mindless doing only what they did because of the Calling. The flip side of Freedom is Responsibility.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 07 juillet 2010 - 01:26 .