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[Ecael]

Mister Mida wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

Ecael wrote...

I don't understand how some people manage to get so defensive about a single game rather than the series itself (like me!). It's like two Harry Potter fans arguing over whether one of the books in the series is terrible when they're written by the same person.

So by your logic the Star Wars fans who keep ****ing about the last three films hate the entire hexalogy?

If you want the analogy to carry over to Star Wars, then Mass Effect 1 would be The Phantom Menace, and Mass Effect 2 would be Attack of the Clones...

Uhm... not really. A New Hope got released first and after that  The Empire Striks Back. So to follow your analogy carrying over thing Mass Effect (1) is A New Hope and Mass Effect 2 is The Empire Striks Back.

Well, I don't have any qualms about that.

The Mass Effect prequel trilogy is going to disappoint many fans, then.

Only if there's gonna be an 'original' trilogy.

Maybe the Mass Effect movie will cover the First Contact War?

And that would be according to you the 'original trilogy'?

Considering that's also how the Star Wars storyline was designed, sure.

[Zulu_DFA]

Throw_this_away wrote...

all stories (think hollywood movies for example) have HUGE plot holes. If I think about them too much I decide that every story is crap. The stories that I enjoy the most are the ones that I just sit back and enjoy it for what it is.  

If you over-analyze anything to death than you will find things that make you shake your head.  This is fact. 

Yes, but at some point it hits you like a ton of bricks and you can't "sit back and enjoy it" any more.

For many people it was the necessity to work with Cerberus. For me it was not a plothole, just not enough explained thing (Akuze & such).

For me the first alarming sign was that you travel to Freedom's Progress in a suttle, instead of spaceship. But I let it go, dismissing the "plot hole" as a design issue, of which there are tons, and the high heels issue is way more annoying.

But when this IFF test "yes/yes" choice hit [PLOTHOLE!], then "all team on the shuttle" [PLOTHOLE!], then Collectors teleporting out of nowhere [PLOTHOLE!], then their not blowing up the Normandy immediately after the crew was taken [PLOTHOLE!], the plot deteriorated into rubbish, of which this picnick called the "suicide mission" is particularly full.

Hence, disappointment.

If I want to enjoy gathering minerals and upgrading weapons, I can play StarCraft. If I want an arcade vehicle to drive an pimp it all over, I'll install NFS. If I wand to shoot people, I'll load Half-Life, Doom, FEAR, Chronicles of Riddick, CoD or Battlefield.

But from Mass Effect I want adventure, and adventure means a coherent plot, which ME2 proved to lack.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Zulu, you're paying too much attention to all this. Seriously, you don't need to give yourself unnecessary headaches. Just let it go already.

[Zulu_DFA]

Ecael wrote...
Maybe the Mass Effect movie will cover the First Contact War?

No matter what the ME movie will be covering, judging by the people who will be filming it, and the general direction of the series, it's gonna be full of acrobatic jumps, headbutts, "barrel of benzine" explosions, and plothles.

[Zulu_DFA]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Zulu, you're paying too much attention to all this. Seriously, you don't need to give yourself unnecessary headaches. Just let it go already.

Thanks for advice, but I'm not letting it go yet.

From a certain perspective, it's all very hilarious. And before you call me a troll, I wish to reiterate that, save for obvious sarcasms, I mean every word I post here.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 30 juin 2010 - 10:52 .

[Mister Mida]

Ecael wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

Ecael wrote...
...

...

If you want the analogy to carry over to Star Wars, then Mass Effect 1 would be The Phantom Menace, and Mass Effect 2 would be Attack of the Clones...

Uhm... not really. A New Hope got released first and after that  The Empire Striks Back. So to follow your analogy carrying over thing Mass Effect (1) is A New Hope and Mass Effect 2 is The Empire Striks Back.

Well, I don't have any qualms about that.

The Mass Effect prequel trilogy is going to disappoint many fans, then.

Only if there's gonna be an 'original' trilogy.

Maybe the Mass Effect movie will cover the First Contact War?

And that would be according to you the 'original trilogy'?

Considering that's also how the Star Wars storyline was designed, sure.

You're gonna have to explain that one to me (yes, i'm a big dummie). The FCW took place before Mass Effect chronologically, while the original SW trilogy chronologically takes place after the prequel one.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Zulu, you're paying too much attention to all this. Seriously, you don't need to give yourself unnecessary headaches. Just let it go already.

Thanks for advise, but I'm not letting it go yet.

From a certain perspective, it's all very hilarious. And before you call me a troll, I wish to reiterate that, save for obvious sarcasms, I mean every word I post here.

I never said you were a  troll; hell, I actually enjoy reading through your posts. But as of late, it's starting to get ridiculous with this plothole thing.

Modifié par FieryPhoenix7, 30 juin 2010 - 09:23 .

[Zulu_DFA]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Zulu, you're paying too much attention to all this. Seriously, you don't need to give yourself unnecessary headaches. Just let it go already.

Thanks for advice, but I'm not letting it go yet.

From a certain perspective, it's all very hilarious. And before you call me a troll, I wish to reiterate that, save for obvious sarcasms, I mean every word I post here.

I never said you were troll; hell, I actually enjoy reading through your posts. But as of late, it's starting to get ridiclous with this plothole thing.

If you go back to page 1 of this thread, you'll see that it was not my intent to ridiculize this plothole thing. But now, with it having been ridiculized, I'm not going to be the one to stop.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 30 juin 2010 - 10:12 .

[Ecael]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Zulu, you're paying too much attention to all this. Seriously, you don't need to give yourself unnecessary headaches. Just let it go already.

Thanks for advise, but I'm not letting it go yet.

From a certain perspective, it's all very hilarious. And before you call me a troll, I wish to reiterate that, save for obvious sarcasms, I mean every word I post here.

I never said you were troll; hell, I actually enjoy reading through your posts. But as of late, it's starting to get ridiclous with this plothole thing.

I'll agree with Fiery here - I've commented on several of Zulu's threads before, because they're very good for plot speculation. Specifically the "Choices" and "Cerberus/Alliance" threads.

I don't know why you had to go all... well, 'smudboy' on us, Zulu.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Ugh, this thread...





*goes back to watching Lost*

[smudboy]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Zulu, you're paying too much attention to all this. Seriously, you don't need to give yourself unnecessary headaches. Just let it go already.

Thanks for advise, but I'm not letting it go yet.

From a certain perspective, it's all very hilarious. And before you call me a troll, I wish to reiterate that, save for obvious sarcasms, I mean every word I post here.

I never said you were a  troll; hell, I actually enjoy reading through your posts. But as of late, it's starting to get ridiculous with this plothole thing.

ME2: Where the plotholes are ridiculous.

[smudboy]

Ecael wrote...
I don't understand how some people manage to get so defensive about a single game rather than the series itself (like me!). It's like two Harry Potter fans arguing over whether one of the books in the series is terrible when they're written by the same person.

Person A writes book 1.  Its story is beautiful.
Person A writes book 2.  It's a sequel to book 1.  Its story is ****, but with pretty pictures, and nice font.
Therefore, book 2's story is not **** because Person A wrote books 1 & 2.

[Bhatair]

but the foooont..

[Zulu_DFA]

Ecael wrote...

I don't know why you had to go all... well, 'smudboy' on us, Zulu.

Perhaps, because he is right in the main conclusion of his analysis: the writing in ME2 is FAR worse than ME1.

It's evident starting with the misuse of the term "intergallactic" to the Mother of All Plotholes called "the crew abduction".

The reasons for that are:

- shifting of focus during development of the game away from its plot.

- alleged by Zulu imposition of demands on the writers by other development departments, rather than realizing their ideas.

- pushing the game early into the release phase

- listening to the fans

- perturbations in the writers team itself

This last one I'll elaborate on here. The expansion of the writers team (even if it was an expansion) does not necessarily lead to good results. Stuff gets more confused when the room is more crowded. But actully I think that the longer writers list in the credits means that some of the original writers were fired / moved to other projects and new ones were hired / brought in. For example, AFAIK, Drew Carpyshyn was designated a new project to concentrate on quite early in the ME2 development. (Ask Liara fans what they think about her "cool cameo", and the reasons behind it. Or just look at their signatures.)

No wonder the ME2 plot went to hell.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 30 juin 2010 - 10:52 .

[ADLegend21]

Bhatair wrote...

but the foooont..

book 2's a heavy read...

[Zulu_DFA]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Bhatair wrote...

but the foooont..

book 2's a heavy read...

Very heavy, actually.

[Ecael]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Ecael wrote...

I don't know why you had to go all... well, 'smudboy' on us, Zulu.

Perhaps, because he is right in the main conclusion of his analysis: the writing in ME2 is FAR worse than ME1.

It's evident starting with the misuse of the term "intergallactic" to the Mother of All Plotholes called "the crew abduction".

The reasons for that are:

- shifting of focus during development of the game away from its plot.

- alleged by Zulu imposition of demands on the writers by other development departments, rather than realizing their ideas.

- pushing the game early into the release phase

- listening to the fans

- perturbations in the writers team itself

This last one I'll elaborate on here. The expansion of the writers team (even if it was an expansion) does not necessarily lead to good results. Stuff gets more confused when the room is more crowded. But actully I think that the longer writers list in the credits means that some of the original writers were fired / moved to other projects and new ones were hired / brought in. For example, AFAIK, Drew Carpyshyn was designated a new project to concentrate on quite early in the ME2 development. (Ask Liara fans what they think about her "cool cameo", and the reasons behind it. Or just look at their signatures.)

No wonder the ME2 plot went to hell.

• Drew Karpyshyn didn't move to BioWare Austin until he was completely finished with his work on Mass Effect 2. He says so on his website. He also mentions that the writers do not take ideas from the fans.
• Like I said, if they shifted focus from gameplay to plot, they would want to hire twice as many programmers, but they didn't. All they did was assign Christina Norman as lead gameplay designer/programmer (she was one of the programmers for Mass Effect 1 as well). Not only that, but Christina Norman is a hardcore RPG and MMORPG fan.
• Christina Norman also mentioned in one of her interviews during game release that BioWare was very much rushed for time when making Mass Effect 1 (likely because Microsoft wanted it released by holiday season), but they were allowed to take their time for Mass Effect 2.
• I don't think there were many fans of Mass Effect 1 on the old forums that specifically said "Please make Mass Effect 2's storyline worse!", nor would BioWare listen to them. Like I said, the writers can't take ideas for storylines because they are the most liable to be sued if they did. Meanwhile, the rest of the game design can copy off any other game they want to with impunity.

So while it's easy to point out flaws in anything, it's much more difficult to justify why the flaws would occur in the first place.

[Caesar914]

Omg.... Smudboy.... I just watched 4 of the 6 parts of your mass effect plothold analysis vids on youtube. I'm officially scared.

[ADLegend21]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Ecael wrote...

I don't know why you had to go all... well, 'smudboy' on us, Zulu.

Perhaps, because he is right in the main conclusion of his analysis: the writing in ME2 is FAR worse than ME1.

It's evident starting with the misuse of the term "intergallactic" to the Mother of All Plotholes called "the crew abduction".

The reasons for that are:

- shifting of focus during development of the game away from its plot.

- alleged by Zulu imposition of demands on the writers by other development departments, rather than realizing their ideas.

- pushing the game early into the release phase

- listening to the fans

- perturbations in the writers team itself

This last one I'll elaborate on here. The expansion of the writers team (even if it was an expansion) does not necessarily lead to good results. Stuff gets more confused when the room is more crowded. But actully I think that the longer writers list in the credits means that some of the original writers were fired / moved to other projects and new ones were hired / brought in. For example, AFAIK, Drew Carpyshyn was designated a new project to concentrate on quite early in the ME2 development. (Ask Liara fans what they think about her "cool cameo", and the reasons behind it. Or just look at their signatures.)

No wonder the ME2 plot went to hell.

Actually ME2's plot wasn't as bad as you're making it out to be. from what I've seen you haven't mentioned a single plot hole for Me1 just mentioned that there were. Also I like how you talk about yourself in the third person. I playeed ME2 first then played ME1 to get a game where Wrex and the council were alive and where Kaiden died in a nuke explosion and for all your ****ing, never once did I go "OMG big as gaping plot hole" sure some things were iffy, but seeing as MAss effect 2 got some pretty good ratings it's not the Swiss cheese you claim it to be SMud- I mean Zulu.

[Zulu_DFA]

Ecael wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Ecael wrote...

I don't know why you had to go all... well, 'smudboy' on us, Zulu.

Perhaps, because he is right in the main conclusion of his analysis: the writing in ME2 is FAR worse than ME1.

It's evident starting with the misuse of the term "intergallactic" to the Mother of All Plotholes called "the crew abduction".

The reasons for that are:

- shifting of focus during development of the game away from its plot.

- alleged by Zulu imposition of demands on the writers by other development departments, rather than realizing their ideas.

- pushing the game early into the release phase

- listening to the fans

- perturbations in the writers team itself

This last one I'll elaborate on here. The expansion of the writers team (even if it was an expansion) does not necessarily lead to good results. Stuff gets more confused when the room is more crowded. But actully I think that the longer writers list in the credits means that some of the original writers were fired / moved to other projects and new ones were hired / brought in. For example, AFAIK, Drew Carpyshyn was designated a new project to concentrate on quite early in the ME2 development. (Ask Liara fans what they think about her "cool cameo", and the reasons behind it. Or just look at their signatures.)

No wonder the ME2 plot went to hell.

• Drew Karpyshyn didn't move to BioWare Austin until he was completely finished with his work on Mass Effect 2. He says so on his website.
  

Try telling this to Liara fans.
 

He also mentions that the writers do not take ideas from the fans.

Yeah? What about the talimance?
 

Like I said, if they shifted focus from gameplay to plot, they would want to hire twice as many programmers, but they didn't. All they did was assign Christina Norman as lead gameplay designer/programmer (she was one of the programmers for Mass Effect 1 as well). Not only that, but Christina Norman is a hardcore RPG and MMORPG fan.

Normally, I despise old Freud, but his theory about slips of tongue is interesting...
 

Christina Norman also mentioned in one of her interviews during game release that BioWare was very much rushed for time when making Mass Effect 1 (likely because Microsoft wanted it released by holiday season), but they were allowed to take their time for Mass Effect 2.

Wow! So it turns out the only reason I enjoyed my ME1 experience so much is that Christina Norman wasn't given enough time then to screw up Drew Karpyshyn's ideas?

No offence to Christina Norman, but I feel like mentioning yet again that for the shooter experience, ME2 is by a long shot worse than so many games, dating back as far as 2002.
 

I don't think there were many fans of Mass Effect 1 on the old forums that specifically said "Please make Mass Effect 2's storyline worse!", nor would BioWare listen to them. Like I said, the writers can't take ideas for storylines  

 
Talimance... Plothole... hint-hint.
 

because they are the most liable to be sued if they did. Meanwhile, the rest of the game design can copy off any other game they want to with impunity. 

Anything posted on this site by any party belong to BioWare.
BTW it just occured to me today, that ME2 plot (as well as some characters) have a striking resemblance of Trey Parker's satire puppet movie Team America: World Police.

So while it's easy to point out flaws in anything, it's much more difficult to justify why the flaws would occur in the first place.

There is a word for it: negligence.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 juillet 2010 - 12:29 .

[smudboy]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Ecael wrote...

I don't know why you had to go all... well, 'smudboy' on us, Zulu.

Perhaps, because he is right in the main conclusion of his analysis: the writing in ME2 is FAR worse than ME1.

It's evident starting with the misuse of the term "intergallactic" to the Mother of All Plotholes called "the crew abduction".

The reasons for that are:

- shifting of focus during development of the game away from its plot.

- alleged by Zulu imposition of demands on the writers by other development departments, rather than realizing their ideas.

- pushing the game early into the release phase

- listening to the fans

- perturbations in the writers team itself

This last one I'll elaborate on here. The expansion of the writers team (even if it was an expansion) does not necessarily lead to good results. Stuff gets more confused when the room is more crowded. But actully I think that the longer writers list in the credits means that some of the original writers were fired / moved to other projects and new ones were hired / brought in. For example, AFAIK, Drew Carpyshyn was designated a new project to concentrate on quite early in the ME2 development. (Ask Liara fans what they think about her "cool cameo", and the reasons behind it. Or just look at their signatures.)

No wonder the ME2 plot went to hell.

Actually ME2's plot wasn't as bad as you're making it out to be. from what I've seen you haven't mentioned a single plot hole for Me1 just mentioned that there were. Also I like how you talk about yourself in the third person. I playeed ME2 first then played ME1 to get a game where Wrex and the council were alive and where Kaiden died in a nuke explosion and for all your ****ing, never once did I go "OMG big as gaping plot hole" sure some things were iffy, but seeing as MAss effect 2 got some pretty good ratings it's not the Swiss cheese you claim it to be SMud- I mean Zulu.

Aside from the need for a rating system that explains its math, does the average reviewer understand story?  Anyone that gives the story a passing grade is out to lunch (gametrailers' review is complete poppycock, giving it a 9.7), or just wasn't paying attention.  Reviewers are evaluating a game, of course, and can predominately focus on gaming mechanics, design presentation, storytelling -- or other such elements -- and that's perfectly fine.

I've recently found some good reviews from a site called gamebanshee.  Here's their ME2 one, and a few others.

Modifié par smudboy, 01 juillet 2010 - 12:09 .

[ADLegend21]

smudboy wrote...


I've recently found some good reviews from a site called gamebanshee.  Here's their ME2 one, and a few others.

If by good you mean "supports my views" then sure you found one alright.

[Zulu_DFA]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Actually ME2's plot wasn't as bad as you're making it out to be. from what I've seen you haven't mentioned a single plot hole for Me1 just mentioned that there were. Also I like how you talk about yourself in the third person. I playeed ME2 first then played ME1 to get a game where Wrex and the council were alive and where Kaiden died in a nuke explosion and for all your ****ing, never once did I go "OMG big as gaping plot hole" sure some things were iffy, but seeing as MAss effect 2 got some pretty good ratings it's not the Swiss cheese you claim it to be SMud- I mean Zulu.

Dude! The "Ratings" are all made up. Which means they can be sold or bought. Just like, you know, Martin Sheen's voice acting services. Remember that next time you bring up the "ratings" in the discussion of quality of something. Also don't bring up the "sales" argument. Narcotics and cigarettes sale better than video games.

And, I were in your situation, that is played ME2 without playing ME1, you'd most probably never heard from me because I'd never have finished ME2.

[Vicious]

LOL at those with no life, spending their time railing against plotholes in a completely fictional game that's ALREADY BEEN RELEASED so it's too late to do anything anyway.

[smudboy]

ADLegend21 wrote...
If by good you mean "supports my views" then sure you found one alright.

Feel free to assess the 3 reviewers and point flaws in their review.

Considering my views are myriad, I wouldn't say any site supports them completely.  Though they get a few right.  That site reviews other games well, too, (like the Alpha Protocol.)  See, these are intelligent, well thought out reviews. I didn't see a scoring system, although I'm sure some individuals might use one, since it looks like anyone can be a reviewer.  This ME2 one is quite accurate.