28 réponses à ce sujet

[numotsbane]

Having had a look into bonus power usage in general in the following thread: [poll] definitive editions: bonus powers

it has come to my attention that most classes are taking ammo powers over the other bonus powers. My question is simple: why?

Grunt, Zaeed and Jacob can all provide an ammo power indirectly from level 6 onwards. Soldiers and vanguards already have access to incindiary ammo. After loyalty missions, jack and garrus can provide ammo powers as well.

The only class I pick an ammo power for is early game adept, until i can get jack to give it to me post pragia. then i switch to... something else, depending.

so why do you/ do you not choose an ammo power?

[NICKjnp]

I take ammo powers from my squadmates. I don't see the point in wasting Shepard's powers on ammo powers when he/she has a much faster cool down for power usage.

[Cloaking_Thane]

I agree 100%, except I love maxing out squad Cyro....its pretty awesome

[numotsbane]

yeah for cryo it makes sense because you can't get it from another class, and its useful if you have something different for defense stripping. So I agree with you there.

but surely not everyone can agree with me? After all, 35%+ of us apparently use them...

[Simbacca]

I don't typically take Ammo powers as the bonus. Why would some? To be able to use the squad they want and still have a maxed ammo power on them. For example; an Adept playing with Warp Ammo can take Thane and Samara on that next mission instead of having to drop one of them for Grunt or Jacob.

[Cloaking_Thane]

Simbacca wrote...

I don't typically take Ammo powers as the bonus. Why would some? To be able to use the squad they want and still have a maxed ammo power on them. For example; an Adept playing with Warp Ammo can take Thane and Samara on that next mission instead of having to drop one of them for Grunt or Jacob.

Valid reasoning

[Tlazolteotl]

There's also another reason.

Having heavy warp ammo instead of squad warp ammo is an additional +30% damage vs ragdolled targets.

Likewise, the difference between squad AP and tungsten is significant.

To put things in perspective, 2 upgrades gives you 20%. Though due to the damage calculations being a little weird (upgrades being multiplicative sometimes as well as applying vs. all defenses/health), 20% from an ammo power is probably worth not much more than 1 upgrade.

[Pacifien]

Warp Ammo is the one I can see most people picking because 1) Jack isn't particularly powerful on Hardcore/Insanity, so I imagine she isn't used often and 2) you couldn't even get her Warp Ammo until you do her loyalty mission anyway.

There is a case for Armor-Piercing. Engineers and Infiltrators. If you don't want to take Grunt and Jacob all the time, if you don't want to wait until Garrus's loyalty mission, if you don't want to use the biotic Warp Ammo on your nonbiotic class, if you don't want to depend on Incinerate, then Armor-Piercing is a good choice. However, I don't see its purpose if you have Incendiary (Soldiers and Vanguards) or have a biotic class (Adept or Sentinel) because I find Incendiary and Warp Ammo to be better options.

I can even find a case for Shredder Ammo. Play on Veteran and below where the defenses are minimal compared to the enemies with just Health. Shredder Ammo does indeed shred magnificently.

But that's just for people who like their ammo powers. Beyond the Adept and Sentinel, I just find so many other bonus powers useful to me.

[numotsbane]

Simbacca wrote...



I don't typically take Ammo powers as the bonus. Why would some? To be able to use the squad they want and still have a maxed ammo power on them. For example; an Adept playing with Warp Ammo can take Thane and Samara on that next mission instead of having to drop one of them for Grunt or Jacob.

I did think that would be part of the reasoning. I'm glad you've raised it actually.

I think its an issue of oppurtunity cost. To use the above example, what is the bigger loss?

- having to take jack or grunt or jacob to get an ammo power; or

- not being able to choose another bonus power because you've taken warp ammo.

assuming you don't take warp ammo, you'll probably take something like reave, slam, energy drain or barrier. you'll also have to take, say, jacob instead of samara.

in this case you'll have another power that has a significantly shorter cooldown than if you relied on a squadmate for it. you'll also still have a use for jacob even if he dies, because the incindiary ammo will still stay up on your guns.

So I suppose what I'm saying is that I value the spots on my portion of the power wheel more than the spots on my squadmates portion of the power wheel. and if I'm getting a similar (though as Tlazolteotl mentions, admittedly less effective) ammo power from a squadmate, then I can use one of the spots for my powers for something more powerful, or which I can't get from a squadmate.



I have been thinking too much again...

[NICKjnp]

numotsbane wrote...

Simbacca wrote...

I don't typically take Ammo powers as the bonus. Why would some? To be able to use the squad they want and still have a maxed ammo power on them. For example; an Adept playing with Warp Ammo can take Thane and Samara on that next mission instead of having to drop one of them for Grunt or Jacob.

I did think that would be part of the reasoning. I'm glad you've raised it actually.
I think its an issue of oppurtunity cost. To use the above example, what is the bigger loss?
- having to take jack or grunt or jacob to get an ammo power; or
- not being able to choose another bonus power because you've taken warp ammo.
assuming you don't take warp ammo, you'll probably take something like reave, slam, energy drain or barrier. you'll also have to take, say, jacob instead of samara.
in this case you'll have another power that has a significantly shorter cooldown than if you relied on a squadmate for it. you'll also still have a use for jacob even if he dies, because the incindiary ammo will still stay up on your guns.
So I suppose what I'm saying is that I value the spots on my portion of the power wheel more than the spots on my squadmates portion of the power wheel. and if I'm getting a similar (though as Tlazolteotl mentions, admittedly less effective) ammo power from a squadmate, then I can use one of the spots for my powers for something more powerful, or which I can't get from a squadmate.

I have been thinking too much again...

I never take Jacob... I almost exclusively take Grunt and Jack (for there squad ammo powers).  I also play adepts and vanguards.... and I don't put points into my own ammo powers.  People say Jack is uesless on Insanity but if you play right then she is one of the most effective characters in game.
Example: I use area reave on collector drones on collector platforms which gets rid of their barrier in one hit.  I then have Jack use lvl 3 shockwave and it knocks the collectors off the platforms.  The last remain drone has its barrier easily stripped (via Thane) and I use pull and set up a warp detonation with Thane/Miranda.  On the other end I use Samara and Grunt (with Grunt having squad incendiary).  Works everytime and most stay alive without an issue.

And for thos who say Grunt can't go toe to toe with things like a scion I give you this.

Modifié par NICKjnp, 02 juillet 2010 - 04:42 .

[numotsbane]

Pacifien wrote...

Warp Ammo is the one I can see most people picking because 1) Jack isn't particularly powerful on Hardcore/Insanity(*1), so I imagine she isn't used often and 2) you couldn't even get her Warp Ammo until you do her loyalty mission anyway.(*2)

There is a case for Armor-Piercing. Engineers and Infiltrators. If you don't want to take Grunt and Jacob all the time, if you don't want to wait until Garrus's loyalty mission, if you don't want to use the biotic Warp Ammo on your nonbiotic class, if you don't want to depend on Incinerate, then Armor-Piercing is a good choice(*3). However, I don't see its purpose if you have Incendiary (Soldiers and Vanguards) or have a biotic class (Adept or Sentinel) because I find Incendiary and Warp Ammo to be better options(*4).

1-  I love jack. I take her everywhere for pull (i tend to do most of the defense stripping anyway). equip her with the carnifex instead of the evi and i think she sticks to cover a bit more.
2- yep
3- a lot of ifs . otherwise, yep.
4- yep

in regards to shredder ammo on lower difficulties, yeah its good. but on lower difficulties, area neural shock is freakin awesome, as is... well, lots of stuff

NICKjnp wrote...
I never take Jacob

neither actually. his squad banter is so...meh. "the blue suns have given up a lot of territory. that doesn't bode well for them"... in a massive deadpan, too.

[Arhka]

I put ammo on squadmates because it lets me specialize in doing more of the active damage myself. Plus, Garrus never runs out of ammo on his Mantis so he's great dps.

[Bozorgmehr]

Pacifien wrote...
I don't see its purpose if you have Incendiary (Soldiers and Vanguards) or have a biotic class (Adept or Sentinel) because I find Incendiary and Warp Ammo to be better options.

AP Ammo is much better during the IFF mission (Adpet and Sentinel) but every other mission go for Warp Ammo.

[numotsbane]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

AP Ammo is much better during the IFF mission (Adpet and Sentinel) but every other mission go for Warp Ammo.

yeah, I'll say the IFF is something where ammo powers are useful for those classes, if only because the other bonus powers are pretty ineffective against armoured husks. but if you take garrus, you get the ammo power as well as the ''ok, lets all take a step back from the alien impaling devices" dialogue. and you know you want to hear it one... more... time.

[Cloaking_Thane]

also w/ Ezoo being so frequent you can tailor your specs and extra power for each individual mission if you desired.

Its time comsuming and largely unneccesary but there you go lol

Modifié par Cloaking_Thane, 02 juillet 2010 - 05:19 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

Its time comsuming and largely unneccesary but there you go lol

I don't consider 30 - 60 s time consuming? If you mean resource scanning than yeah that's pretty boring, but there's always Gibbed's save editor

[Pacifien]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
I don't see its purpose if you have Incendiary (Soldiers and Vanguards) or have a biotic class (Adept or Sentinel) because I find Incendiary and Warp Ammo to be better options.

AP Ammo is much better during the IFF mission (Adpet and Sentinel) but every other mission go for Warp Ammo.

Heh. That is actually a mission where I will take Grunt or Jacob.

[Fiery Phoenix]

I agree with Pacifien. The IFF is exactly for people like Grunt and Jacob. Last time I played the mission I took Grunt and Thane with me. We were unstoppable.

[Sailears]

I take ammo powers on classes with many tech/biotic powers, for the simple reason of hotkeying. In general each squad member has 2 important powers to hotkey (1 in the case of Grunt, or 3 in the case of Thane/Samara). That leaves me with 4 hotkeys for Shepard, not counting hotkeying medigel. Take the adept - singularity, warp, pull, throw - that's 4 powers.

With ammo powers I generally set them before combat, so I don't mind pausing, and this allows for more fluid gameplay.

[Pacifien]

Curunen wrote...
With ammo powers I generally set them before combat, so I don't mind pausing, and this allows for more fluid gameplay.

Curse you PC players and your fluid gameplay!

*not grumpy or bitter at all* <_<

[AntiChri5]

I take them on the caster classes.



My Adept has Warp Ammo.



My Engineer has Armor Piercing.



My Sentinel will have Warp Ammo.



When you get down to it, these classes hardly need another activated ability sharing everything elses cooldown. Then there are the times when you cant sponge of a squadmate (Kasumi's LM, end of Overlord)



having an ammo power rounds them out nicely while giving you the freedom to take who you choose wherever you go.

[chriseggroll]

another thing about only having ammo powers on squad mates is that when you die, the power gets turned off so if you switch weapons a lot like me, it gets annoying having to re-apply all the ammo powers when you're doing a tough mission on insanity. classes that have ammo powers, i always level the squad version, but i think ammo powers are kind of a waste to take as a special ability, though i just respec often depending on the mission

Modifié par chriseggroll, 31 mars 2011 - 08:04 .

[Alamar2078]

In terms of taking an Ammo Power as a bonus power I can defend that position .. maybe not well but I can make an arguement:

-- Sniper classes that do One-Shot-One-Kill need an ammo power that is effective against the base defensse of their target. Warp Ammo is the only thing effective for Barriers. Because you see Collectors & Vanguards around it makes sense to take this as a bonus power.

-- While not common AP ammo is equally effective against a Mech's Armor and Health. IIRC Mechs don't take full damage vs. Fire against health so I could see some folks wanting this on some missions.

-- Some classes have limited or no ammo powers. To feel self-sufficient maybe you want to take one.

-- In areas where you are separated from your team [Overlord & Arrival] you can only count on Ammo powers you have. I would say you still shouldn't take an Ammo Power as a bonus here but some others may want that tiny bonus vs. health.

[Malanek]

Curunen wrote...

I take ammo powers on classes with many tech/biotic powers, for the simple reason of hotkeying. In general each squad member has 2 important powers to hotkey (1 in the case of Grunt, or 3 in the case of Thane/Samara). That leaves me with 4 hotkeys for Shepard, not counting hotkeying medigel. Take the adept - singularity, warp, pull, throw - that's 4 powers.<br />
With ammo powers I generally set them before combat, so I don't mind pausing, and this allows for more fluid gameplay.

The Q and E keys will usually select the power for the squad mate most appropriate to use. So Miranda for instance will use Overload on Shields and Warp on Armour or Barriers. It's not perfect because if you have a singularitied geth she may warp or she may overload (or slam if you have it). However if you are running out of hotkeys (and 8 isn't very many for some characters)  using Q and E is well worth it. You also won't "waste" the power if they take cover.