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[Ecael]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Neuzhelin wrote...

What people miss is the interraction between NPCs. They kept cutting and cutting it until it was completely gone in the Overlord DLC.

There's never been much NPC interaction in any Mass Effect DLC.

You know, the more I reflect on it, there wasn't that much in the core game. The elevators are, to my recollection, the only time squadmates speak to each other excepting the Kaidan/Ashley chat in the Wards. Even the much extolled "staff meeting" cutscenes in between plot worlds had everyone either talking directly to Shepard or making snide jokes to no-one in particular (I'm looking at you, Chief).
It's nice to know all we need to balance the field is a DLC of one conversation, roughly five lines long, per squad pairing. I figure we can get away with half as many conversations since there's twice as many squad members as before. Wait, can we extract the loyalty fight lines from that? Saves us two entire conversations

Squadmates: The Campaign Dialogue Guide for ME2

I still need to get started on a dialogue guide for ME1, but the sound files aren't organized by name.

[AilCross1912]

Elevators were great because, like everybody else said, it showed interactions between characters besides Shepard. I would've loved to see Tali and Legion discuss their differences so they could finally understand each other. Then if they couldn't in one elevator ride, we'll just keep riding until they became best of friends, or not bitter enemies......... I hope elevators are back even though that's asking a bit much. Man we're crybabies....

[Neuzhelin]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Neuzhelin wrote...

What people miss is the interraction between NPCs. They kept cutting and cutting it until it was completely gone in the Overlord DLC.

There's never been much NPC interaction in any Mass Effect DLC.

You know, the more I reflect on it, there wasn't that much in the core game. The elevators are, to my recollection, the only time squadmates speak to each other excepting the Kaidan/Ashley chat in the Wards. Even the much extolled "staff meeting" cutscenes in between plot worlds had everyone either talking directly to Shepard or making snide jokes to no-one in particular (I'm looking at you, Chief).
It's nice to know all we need to balance the field is a DLC of one conversation, roughly five lines long, per squad pairing. I figure we can get away with half as many conversations since there's twice as many squad members as before. Wait, can we extract the loyalty fight lines from that? Saves us two entire conversations

In ME1 I reckon there were times where who you took on a mission mattered (not just conversation but a whole conversation wheel!). Take Liara and Noveria for instance concerning her mother; a lot of additional dialogue or Liara on Illos just before you leave Vigil. It added a lot to the game and now it is gone. I understand it is hard to add dialogue to DLC (well, Kasumi mission is an exception as you only have 1 squadmate) but nevertheless that is no excuse.

Modifié par Neuzhelin, 03 juillet 2010 - 02:03 .

[Ecael]

Neuzhelin wrote...

Christmas Ape wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Neuzhelin wrote...

What people miss is the interraction between NPCs. They kept cutting and cutting it until it was completely gone in the Overlord DLC.

There's never been much NPC interaction in any Mass Effect DLC.

You know, the more I reflect on it, there wasn't that much in the core game. The elevators are, to my recollection, the only time squadmates speak to each other excepting the Kaidan/Ashley chat in the Wards. Even the much extolled "staff meeting" cutscenes in between plot worlds had everyone either talking directly to Shepard or making snide jokes to no-one in particular (I'm looking at you, Chief).
It's nice to know all we need to balance the field is a DLC of one conversation, roughly five lines long, per squad pairing. I figure we can get away with half as many conversations since there's twice as many squad members as before. Wait, can we extract the loyalty fight lines from that? Saves us two entire conversations

In ME1 I reckon there were times where who you took on a mission mattered (not just conversation but a whole conversation wheel!). Take Liara and Noveria for instance concerning her mother; a lot of additional dialogue or Liara on Illos just before you leave Vigil. It added a lot to the game and now it is gone. I understand it is hard to add dialogue to DLC (well, Kasumi mission is an exception as you only have 1 squadmate) but nevertheless that is no excuse.

The recruitment and loyalty missions have a lot of squadmate dialogue, even if it isn't by choice.

Also, as in the guide posted above, there's still a lot of instances where what you described still occurs, but it's more difficult to run into because of the combinations of the 12 squadmates you can bring.

[Christmas Ape]

In ME1 I reckon there were times where who you took on a mission mattered (not just conversation but a whole conversation wheel!). Take Liara and Noveria for instance concerning her mother; a lot of additional dialogue or Liara on Illos just before you leave Vigil.

Well, Ecael's done the numbers on overall "recorded dialog", I'm merely addressing intra-squad interaction, which is often brought up in these conversations, particularly in regards to elevators. And none of that - okay, that's not entirely true, I know at least Garrus gives Liara a "focus!" line at Vigil - is intra-squad. Everybody still talks directly to Shepard.

[Neuzhelin]

To me ME2 feels just less personal, empty and generic dialogue wise then ME1. Maybe it is an illusion since you have the numbers to back it up. Besides I liked ME1 story far more (others ME2 more and that is fine) and it could have influenced my opinion, nevertheless that is the impression I got after playing through both games.

Modifié par Neuzhelin, 03 juillet 2010 - 02:24 .

[Ecael]

Neuzhelin wrote...

To me ME2 feels just less personal, empty and generic dialogue wise then ME1. Maybe it is an illusion since you have the numbers to back it up. Besides I liked ME1 story far more (others ME2 more and that is fine) and it could have influenced my opinion, nevertheless that is the impression I got after playing through both games.

That depends on whether "personal" refers to Shepard-squadmate interaction or squadmate-squadmate interaction. There is much more Shepard-squadmate dialogue in Mass Effect 2.

[LPPrince]

I want more than just a couple of elevators in ME3.

I want elevators BACK. I'm tired of the loading screens giving me useless information, or no information at all.

I'm tired of being warped from the end of the mission to a room in the Normandy.

I'm tired of being railroaded on a mission and going in a straight line with no hubs with multiple floors to head to.

I want more Noveria's. You know, good mission make up.

You had a hub, some problems to deal with, then a long drive, a set up for another hub, some problems to take care of, and then multiple ways to finish the mission/get to the end.

Now, all we get is-

Land. Shoot anything that moves. Leave.

Or in the case of some god awful N7 missions(all of them were bad story wise),

Land. Walk. Leave.

EDIT-

I should probably bring up that with the latter half of this post, my point is that elevators took us to these places, but without them, it just seems so linear and immersion breaking.

Modifié par LPPrince, 03 juillet 2010 - 03:38 .

[LPPrince]

slimgrin wrote...

@LPPrince. That post is for another thread.

My point is that elevators gave us a reason to go to more areas, you know?

I'll trail off the mission make up, but my point stands.

Elevators helped the flow of the game A LOT. Gave us places to explore, conversations to have, updates to hear.

And we had to throw all that away because some people got into a hissy fit about having to wait for a little while.

[Christmas Ape]

I am, for my own tastes, compelled to disagree. Wandering the landscape discussing the weather is grand for a fantasy RPG, but this is space opera! We're saving the galaxy at FTL and only stopping long enough to light our cigars on a white dwarf. We've got shuttles and kinetic barriers and a license to stomp ass on anyone in our way. Let's move!

I lost my taste for having to watch my character travel in real time somewhere around my 4th session of D&D, let alone when I started playing King's Quest. I know where I'm going, both I and the programmer know there's nothing of interest between me and it besides whatever background they had rendered for it, why can't I just proceed to playing the game? I don't want a virtual tour of the city, nor to have to map the building in my head (Saren's base contains an offensive number of elevators which served purely as loading screen substitutes). I want to make things happen. I don't want to explore areas with nothing in them for the sake of having extra space rendered. Six of the game's ~25 elevators contained conversations or updates, which you now find at kiosks or talkboxes.



Less filler, more gameplay. Always a winning formula.

[LPPrince]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Less filler, more gameplay. Always a winning formula.

Elevators had a whole hell of a lot more gameplay involved than loading screens and a lot less filler.

Not much gameplay and filler you can put into loading, but there it is.

[Neuzhelin]

Ecael wrote...

Neuzhelin wrote...

To me ME2 feels just less personal, empty and generic dialogue wise then ME1. Maybe it is an illusion since you have the numbers to back it up. Besides I liked ME1 story far more (others ME2 more and that is fine) and it could have influenced my opinion, nevertheless that is the impression I got after playing through both games.

That depends on whether "personal" refers to Shepard-squadmate interaction or squadmate-squadmate interaction. There is much more Shepard-squadmate dialogue in Mass Effect 2.

I prefer quality to quantity and the other aspect is that pointing out what is what is very subjective.

[Neuzhelin]

LPPrince wrote...

I want more than just a couple of elevators in ME3.

I want elevators BACK. I'm tired of the loading screens giving me useless information, or no information at all.

I'm tired of being warped from the end of the mission to a room in the Normandy.

I'm tired of being railroaded on a mission and going in a straight line with no hubs with multiple floors to head to.

I want more Noveria's. You know, good mission make up.

You had a hub, some problems to deal with, then a long drive, a set up for another hub, some problems to take care of, and then multiple ways to finish the mission/get to the end.

Now, all we get is-

Land. Shoot anything that moves. Leave.

Or in the case of some god awful N7 missions(all of them were bad story wise),

Land. Walk. Leave.

EDIT-

I should probably bring up that with the latter half of this post, my point is that elevators took us to these places, but without them, it just seems so linear and immersion breaking.

This sums up nicely how I feel.

Edit: in the post above I posted that I prefer quality to quantity, well that is concerning the dialogue and story.

This is more about exploration that turned into something very claustrophobic in ME2. Yes, Mako exploration got boring but at least there was exploration involved!  It seems that Bioware finally figured it out with the Overlord:DLC .

Modifié par Neuzhelin, 03 juillet 2010 - 04:29 .

[Christmas Ape]

LPPrince wrote...

Christmas Ape wrote...

Less filler, more gameplay. Always a winning formula.

Elevators had a whole hell of a lot more gameplay involved than loading screens and a lot less filler.

Not much gameplay and filler you can put into loading, but there it is.

I can only conclude your definition of gameplay includes passively receiving game content, like the occasional squad conversations.
That would be incorrect as I was using the word, but I'll accept your definition for the sake of argument.

However. An installed copy of ME2 contains less loading screen time than ME1 contains elevator + loading screen time, since they elected to use both systems.

Ergo, less filler, more time in a given play session spent interacting with the gameplay elements.

[kalle90]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...
elevators > loading screens

The true formula. Sure I hoped the ride would be shorter or there would be interesting dialogues to hear or even that I could move and shoot around, but in the end they had much more immersion and I could just look away from screen if it got too bad.

[Christmas Ape]

slimgrin wrote...

OP's post was about elevators and whether they provide the player with more choice; not about level design.

They're fairly inextricably linked, unless there was an elevator I missed whose use or lack thereof altered the actual flow of the plot. Elevators v. rapid transit play directly into level design. I'm not addressing the content of the missions, merely the way in which we get to them.

[LPPrince]

slimgrin wrote...

OP's post was about elevators and whether they provide the player with more choice; not about level design.

But elevators added to level design. Made them feel more real, made the world feel bigger and less restricted.

There's a reason why the universe in ME2 feels so small compared to ME1.

[mrmike_1949]

I HATED the elevators at first, but they do serve a purpose, and I've come to enjoy the interlude. So Bioware, whoever had that brainstorm DID have a good idea!

[Ecael]

LPPrince wrote...

I want more than just a couple of elevators in ME3.

I want elevators BACK. I'm tired of the loading screens giving me useless information, or no information at all.

I'm tired of being warped from the end of the mission to a room in the Normandy.

I'm tired of being railroaded on a mission and going in a straight line with no hubs with multiple floors to head to.

I want more Noveria's. You know, good mission make up.

You had a hub, some problems to deal with, then a long drive, a set up for another hub, some problems to take care of, and then multiple ways to finish the mission/get to the end.

Now, all we get is-

Land. Shoot anything that moves. Leave.

Or in the case of some god awful N7 missions(all of them were bad story wise),

Land. Walk. Leave.

EDIT-

I should probably bring up that with the latter half of this post, my point is that elevators took us to these places, but without them, it just seems so linear and immersion breaking.

If that bothers you, you're playing the wrong series.

Feros warps you from the Thorian back to groundside, while Noveria warps you from the transit station back to a room on the Normandy. Virmire was a fade-to-black back onto the ship before the final cutscene, while using the Conduit resulted in a short cutscene and a loading screen.

Also, two questions about shooting and immersion:

• How does the Mako get back onto the Normandy?
• Where in Mass Effect 1 was there a place that wasn't a shooting gallery or didn't turn into one?

Neuzhelin wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Neuzhelin wrote...

To me ME2 feels just less personal, empty and generic dialogue wise then ME1. Maybe it is an illusion since you have the numbers to back it up. Besides I liked ME1 story far more (others ME2 more and that is fine) and it could have influenced my opinion, nevertheless that is the impression I got after playing through both games.

That depends on whether "personal" refers to Shepard-squadmate interaction or squadmate-squadmate interaction. There is much more Shepard-squadmate dialogue in Mass Effect 2.

I prefer quality to quantity and the other aspect is that pointing out what is what is very subjective.

As indicated in the second post of my squadmate dialogue guide, you get both quality and quantity in dialogue from most of the squadmates in both Mass Effect 1 and 2. There is also a lot of generic dialogue between them, which is more evident toward the end of the game in Mass Effect 1 when they give their opinion on the final plot flag.

http://social.biowar...16665/1#2816670

Modifié par Ecael, 03 juillet 2010 - 04:55 .

[Neuzhelin]

I have seen your post, it is very nice and detailed :-)

I am, however, not going to argue about my emotional perception of the dialogue, you can't change that logically.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

7-12 seconds of loadings>>>>30+ seconds of loading...