144 réponses à ce sujet

[ziloe]

 I mean God forbid a character should show emotion and actually be in mourning over another who meant so much to them, and was the closest to the father figure they never really had. Like, wow. 

[ejoslin]

I don't think it's because Alistair shows emotion and mourns. It has more to do with, in many cases, that the warden has been through just as bad if not more of a loss, and Alistair, even though he's the more senior warden, refuses to put his feelings aside and instead forces the warden to do so.



Plus, if you do things Alistair doesn't like, he can be pretty pissy about it, even if you follow his advice (like, well, if you kill Connor after Alistair tells you to do so). So even though he forces you to take up the reins, if you don't do thinks the way he thinks they should be done, he, well, doesn't take leadership back (even if you try to get him to do so), but instead complains.



It's a different dynamic if you're in a relationship with him. I've played games where Alistair and the warden are totally in love until, well, he dumps her, where she and Alistair were completely in love until the end, where she and Alistair were BFF and married even (and he accepted any heir coming from her would not be his), where they were BFFs and didn't get married.



I've also played games where they just did NOT get along at all. And I didn't like him much during those games.



He can bring out all sorts of different emotions. He's very well written.

[Giggles_Manically]

My Wardens get along with him, my FemCE totally jumped him (lucky dog). My main issue is that he puts you in charge but expects to be able to give orders as well. SEE:

Zevran

Shale

Jowan

Anvil of the Void

etc..



Cool guy but him expecting to get away with hiding behind the PC really grinds my gears.

[ziloe]

ejoslin wrote...

I don't think it's because Alistair shows emotion and mourns. It has more to do with, in many cases, that the warden has been through just as bad if not more of a loss, and Alistair, even though he's the more senior warden, refuses to put his feelings aside and instead forces the warden to do so.

Plus, if you do things Alistair doesn't like, he can be pretty pissy about it, even if you follow his advice (like, well, if you kill Connor after Alistair tells you to do so). So even though he forces you to take up the reins, if you don't do thinks the way he thinks they should be done, he, well, doesn't take leadership back (even if you try to get him to do so), but instead complains.

It's a different dynamic if you're in a relationship with him. I've played games where Alistair and the warden are totally in love until, well, he dumps her, where she and Alistair were completely in love until the end, where she and Alistair were BFF and married even (and he accepted any heir coming from her would not be his), where they were BFFs and didn't get married.

I've also played games where they just did NOT get along at all. And I didn't like him much during those games.

He can bring out all sorts of different emotions. He's very well written.

I get what you're saying, but emotion isn't a contest. So you've had bad things happen to you (I played a City Elf) and the fact is, just because some terrible stuff happened to you, doesn't mean it's no less heart breaking for their character and what they've experienced. 

For instance, in r/l I have no grandparents left, but reminding someone whose lost their beloved grandfather that it isn't as bad is just entirely insensitive.

He has moral values, if people have problems with that beyond their character in game, then I don't know what to say to that, other than that's why I'm a misanthrope. 

[ejoslin]

Again, how I feel about Alistair really depends on how the game goes.

My point was what happened to the warden was recent. They have had very little time to mourn. The only origin that hasn't suffered a recent devastating loss is the dwarf casteless. The human noble CAN bring it up to Alistair (my entire family was just murdered recently). In fact, the city elf female can tell Alistair at Flemeth's hut that she understands what he's going through because she just saw her fiance murdered (a fact he promptly forgets, apparently, as he doesn't have a different line in the alienage if you told him that).

Edit: However, I was just trying to explain why someone may not like Alistair, not the correctness of that position.  I usually like him.  Sometimes, though, not so much.

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 juillet 2010 - 03:11 .

[Hyper Cutter]

There's that whole debacle at the Landsmeet if you decide to recruit Loghain, too. Even though the idea is suggested by a senior Warden (one who was both Duncan's friend and a victim of Loghain, at that), and that it's a course of action Duncan would probably also have taken, Alistair gets all pissy if you do it and his rationale for doing so is fairly stupid...

[Giggles_Manically]

Does anyone else think that Alistair is suffering from survivors guilt? WIth the guardian it seems that it is so to me at least.

[Avilia]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Does anyone else think that Alistair is suffering from survivors guilt? WIth the guardian it seems that it is so to me at least.

Yes, very much so  in fact.

It doesn't seem that he's lost anyone close to him before and to lose Duncan and Wardens in one hit.  He makes a point of telling you they were like family and he seems to me to be very desperate for family and love.

[ziloe]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

My Wardens get along with him, my FemCE totally jumped him (lucky dog). My main issue is that he puts you in charge but expects to be able to give orders as well. 
Cool guy but him expecting to get away with hiding behind the PC really grinds my gears.

You're supposed to be a team. You aren't the boss, he's your companion and trusted ally. God forbid a character should actually disagree with you and not believe in your every whim and indulgence of debauchery.

Modifié par ziloe, 03 juillet 2010 - 03:19 .

[ejoslin]

No, Alistair is following the warden. Morrigan points that out to him in one of their first banters, and he explains why. The warden is the one making all the decisions.

And it's not just a matter, with Alistair, of his disagreeing. Connor is the thing that bugs me most about Alistair. He tells you you should kill him, and if you do, blames you entirely for it. That blame is justified perhaps, but only if the warden IS the one in charge.

Alistair most definitely is suffering survivor's guilt.

Edit: But Alistair, like all the companions, is flawed.  This is ok.  I love the way he's written.  But if you can't understand why someone would dislike him, you've never played a character he dislikes.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 juillet 2010 - 03:24 .

[Lara Denton]

Many choose to forget that Alistair can't lead, otherwise nobody would play the game, and prefer to put the blame on his character. 

[ziloe]

ejoslin wrote...

Again, how I feel about Alistair really depends on how the game goes.

My point was what happened to the warden was recent. They have had very little time to mourn. The only origin that hasn't suffered a recent devastating loss is the dwarf casteless. The human noble CAN bring it up to Alistair (my entire family was just murdered recently). In fact, the city elf female can tell Alistair at Flemeth's hut that she understands what he's going through because she just saw her fiance murdered (a fact he promptly forgets, apparently, as he doesn't have a different line in the alienage if you told him that).

Edit: However, I was just trying to explain why someone may not like Alistair, not the correctness of that position.  I usually like him.  Sometimes, though, not so much.

Yes, but see, you're talking about IN game. I am not role playing right now. I have seen people hate on him because he's "so whiny and emo". It makes me think that's the reason Awakening is lacking in this department of character development apparently, or so I've heard. I have yet to buy it, so don't spoil it for me please. 

[ejoslin]

laradenton wrote...

Many choose to forget that Alistair can't lead, otherwise nobody would play the game, and prefer to put the blame on his character. 

Well, it's the way his character is written.  Of course the warden has to lead; that's why Alistair is written the way he is.  He originally was going to be older and more experienced; obviously, a character who was like that would not work.

[Giggles_Manically]

ziloe wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

My Wardens get along with him, my FemCE totally jumped him (lucky dog). My main issue is that he puts you in charge but expects to be able to give orders as well. 
Cool guy but him expecting to get away with hiding behind the PC really grinds my gears.

You're supposed to be a team. You aren't the boss, he's your companion and trusted ally. God forbid a character should actually disagree with you and not believe in your every whim and indulgence of debauchery.

If you act exactly as a Warden would:
Recruit Loghain, Shale, or Zevran
Perserve the Anvil
Take the harsh direct, and most economical choice
Do the most damage against the spawn.

He goes all wimpy, Sten is a better Warden them him, and he is a qunari.
I dont do evil choices but Alistiar will complain about even merciful moves.

[ejoslin]

ziloe wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Again, how I feel about Alistair really depends on how the game goes.

My point was what happened to the warden was recent. They have had very little time to mourn. The only origin that hasn't suffered a recent devastating loss is the dwarf casteless. The human noble CAN bring it up to Alistair (my entire family was just murdered recently). In fact, the city elf female can tell Alistair at Flemeth's hut that she understands what he's going through because she just saw her fiance murdered (a fact he promptly forgets, apparently, as he doesn't have a different line in the alienage if you told him that).

Edit: However, I was just trying to explain why someone may not like Alistair, not the correctness of that position.  I usually like him.  Sometimes, though, not so much.

Yes, but see, you're talking about IN game. I am not role playing right now. I have seen people hate on him because he's "so whiny and emo". It makes me think that's the reason Awakening is lacking in this department of character development apparently, or so I've heard. I have yet to buy it, so don't spoil it for me please. 

Alistair can be whiny and emo.  He truly can be.  If you've only played one game and he was your love interest and did everything he approved of, you're not going to see the dialogs that turn people off.  

Alistair is amazingly written, as are all the companions.  He's one of the more complex ones.  His personality has many layers.

That people actually dislike, hate, love, whatever, this fictional character in a video game is a tribute to how good the writing really is.

[ziloe]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

ziloe wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

My Wardens get along with him, my FemCE totally jumped him (lucky dog). My main issue is that he puts you in charge but expects to be able to give orders as well. 
Cool guy but him expecting to get away with hiding behind the PC really grinds my gears.

You're supposed to be a team. You aren't the boss, he's your companion and trusted ally. God forbid a character should actually disagree with you and not believe in your every whim and indulgence of debauchery.

If you act exactly as a Warden would:
Recruit Loghain, Shale, or Zevran
Perserve the Anvil
Take the harsh direct, and most economical choice
Do the most damage against the spawn.

He goes all wimpy, Sten is a better Warden them him, and he is a qunari.
I dont do evil choices but Alistiar will complain about even merciful moves.

I am aware of this, like that time I had the option to fight or go to prison. He wasn't very happy about the latter, but only because he was doing exactly what a Warden would do, fight through it. 

There is a time and place for peaceful actions and other times there's more sense in killing a bad guy so he doesn't stab you during the night. I suppose it all is how you play the game, but in the end, it does not justify hating him in real life for being bitter about the past and being human. 

Modifié par ziloe, 03 juillet 2010 - 03:35 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Just try telling him to take over, he whines and wont do it. Although him going all Queen of Hearts on Loghain was pretty awsome.

[ziloe]

ejoslin wrote...

ziloe wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Again, how I feel about Alistair really depends on how the game goes.

My point was what happened to the warden was recent. They have had very little time to mourn. The only origin that hasn't suffered a recent devastating loss is the dwarf casteless. The human noble CAN bring it up to Alistair (my entire family was just murdered recently). In fact, the city elf female can tell Alistair at Flemeth's hut that she understands what he's going through because she just saw her fiance murdered (a fact he promptly forgets, apparently, as he doesn't have a different line in the alienage if you told him that).

Edit: However, I was just trying to explain why someone may not like Alistair, not the correctness of that position.  I usually like him.  Sometimes, though, not so much.

Yes, but see, you're talking about IN game. I am not role playing right now. I have seen people hate on him because he's "so whiny and emo". It makes me think that's the reason Awakening is lacking in this department of character development apparently, or so I've heard. I have yet to buy it, so don't spoil it for me please. 

Alistair can be whiny and emo.  He truly can be.  If you've only played one game and he was your love interest and did everything he approved of, you're not going to see the dialogs that turn people off.  

Alistair is amazingly written, as are all the companions.  He's one of the more complex ones.  His personality has many layers.

That people actually dislike, hate, love, whatever, this fictional character in a video game is a tribute to how good the writing really is.

I played a male character who joked around with him and cultivated a friendship. By the end of the game, we were best friends, joking until the very end. Albeit hardening him, I was still there for him as a friend should be.

In the end, out of the game itself, I still don't agree on hating him for having feelings like a human being would. It actually made me appreciate this game even more and caused me to play it this entire week after picking it up at EB last weekend. 

[ziloe]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Just try telling him to take over, he whines and wont do it. Although him going all Queen of Hearts on Loghain was pretty awsome.

He became his own man in the final act. At least in my playthrough. 

[ejoslin]

So even as a best friend, you would not see the dialogs that really turn people off I suppose. He can be whiny and emo no matter what. You chose dialogs and paths that supported friendship rather than ticked him off.



Look at it this way -- some people just don't like other people. If your warden doesn't like Alistair, Alistair won't like your warden. You'll get his nastier comments. If you make choices he disagrees with, he's pretty pissy, but he will NOT take over leadership again even if you tell him to.



I think I explained why someone wouldn't like Alistair (and I didn't even get into the various Landsmeet issues which can add a whole different dimension to it -- especially the post-Landsmeet dumping).

[KnightofPhoenix]

God forbids someone should dislike a character you love.

[Giggles_Manically]

Touche KoP.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ejoslin wrote...
I think I explained why someone wouldn't like Alistair (and I didn't even get into the various Landsmeet issues which can add a whole different dimension to it -- especially the post-Landsmeet dumping).

Ha, please don't.
That is the most guaranteed recipe for a premature Loghain debate.

[ejoslin]

I'm one of those weird people who like both. It really depends on my warden!

[ziloe]

ejoslin wrote...

So even as a best friend, you would not see the dialogs that really turn people off I suppose. He can be whiny and emo no matter what. You chose dialogs and paths that supported friendship rather than ticked him off.

Look at it this way -- some people just don't like other people. If your warden doesn't like Alistair, Alistair won't like your warden. You'll get his nastier comments. If you make choices he disagrees with, he's pretty pissy, but he will NOT take over leadership again even if you tell him to.

I think I explained why someone wouldn't like Alistair (and I didn't even get into the various Landsmeet issues which can add a whole different dimension to it -- especially the post-Landsmeet dumping).

I understand what you are saying, but again, I am not even talking about in the game. I am referring to the people who dislike him for having feelings and emotion over a character who was lost. 

Like, you have Final Fantasy 7 for instance and the tragic event therein. You have a sad little scene and the game moves on as if it barely touched upon anyone that someone was dead. Many love that game and love Cloud. But do you think it would be the same thing if the almost silent anti hero spoke about his sorrow? Hell no!

So, here you have Dragon Age where the entire game, the whole thing that compels Alistair forward is this tragic event with Duncan and like a real person who trusts you, he opens up to you about it. Many games don't do this at all. This is what I am getting at. It makes me appreciate the character more, knowing I can feel alongside him and it's unfortunate so many people hate him for it. In real life. 

Modifié par ziloe, 03 juillet 2010 - 03:54 .