144 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

ziloe wrote...

 I mean God forbid a character should show emotion and actually be in mourning over another who meant so much to them, and was the closest to the father figure they never really had. Like, wow. 

DO people really hate him IRL? I'm not really convinced they'd waste the effort on a video game character. And please don't be so presumptuous as to assume that the Strawman Alistair-hater you've created is an accurate representation of everyone who has ever had a problem with him.

Maybe it's realistic that he's upset about Duncan and everyone and how he handles it but does that mean that it can't still annoy you as much as it might IRL. Maybe you're perfectly entitled to be annoyed at and dislike a character for no real reason but because they don't really click with you...just like IRL. Why do you have to have an elaborate well-thought-out reason to like or dislike someone, anyway? Especially someone fictional? 

[Addai]

Haters gonna hate!



I for one am glad the writers write flawed characters who can inspire a range of responses, some of them pretty strong in either direction.  My passionate for Leliana confuses my husband no end, for instance.

[pudi0072000]

I love Alistair, really, but if you choose to play as a character that isn't 100% good, then it's easy to understand why people might not like him. Try getting his approval as low as you can and mess around with the nastier dialogue choices - you'll lean more about him and get some interesting new lines, at the least. (He'll **** you out if you get him to -100, and yet he still follows your orders, even if he claims that you aren't his commander. *eye roll*)

Modifié par pudi0072000, 03 juillet 2010 - 03:55 .

[Sarah1281]

I understand what you are saying, but again, I am not even talking about in the game. I am referring to the people who dislike him for having feelings and emotion over a character who was lost.

You've really met people who have said 'God, why does Alistair come with emotions and isn't a robot like all of my other party members that I heart'?

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I understand what you are saying, but again, I am not even talking about in the game. I am referring to the people who dislike him for having feelings and emotion over a character who was lost.

You've really met people who have said 'God, why does Alistair come with emotions and isn't a robot like all of my other party members that I heart'?

People complain all the time about his "whining" about Duncan.

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I understand what you are saying, but again, I am not even talking about in the game. I am referring to the people who dislike him for having feelings and emotion over a character who was lost.

You've really met people who have said 'God, why does Alistair come with emotions and isn't a robot like all of my other party members that I heart'?

People complain all the time about his "whining" about Duncan.

That's still disliking how he chooses to vent about his loss and not wanting him to not have emotions.

[ziloe]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I understand what you are saying, but again, I am not even talking about in the game. I am referring to the people who dislike him for having feelings and emotion over a character who was lost.

You've really met people who have said 'God, why does Alistair come with emotions and isn't a robot like all of my other party members that I heart'?

In short, yes. Just, in a little tactful terms. I.e whiny, emo baby, etc.

[ejoslin]

ziloe wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

So even as a best friend, you would not see the dialogs that really turn people off I suppose. He can be whiny and emo no matter what. You chose dialogs and paths that supported friendship rather than ticked him off.

Look at it this way -- some people just don't like other people. If your warden doesn't like Alistair, Alistair won't like your warden. You'll get his nastier comments. If you make choices he disagrees with, he's pretty pissy, but he will NOT take over leadership again even if you tell him to.

I think I explained why someone wouldn't like Alistair (and I didn't even get into the various Landsmeet issues which can add a whole different dimension to it -- especially the post-Landsmeet dumping).

I understand what you are saying, but again, I am not even talking about in the game. I am referring to the people who dislike him for having feelings and emotion over a character who was lost. 

Like, you have Final Fantasy 7 for instance and the tragic event therein. You have a sad little scene and the game moves on as if it barely touched upon anyone that someone was dead. Many love that game and love Cloud. But do you think it would be the same thing if the almost silent anti hero spoke about his sorrow? Hell no!

So, here you have Dragon Age where the entire game, the whole thing that compels Alistair forward is this tragic event with Duncan and like a real person who trusts you, he opens up to you about it. Many games don't do this at all. This is what I am getting at. It makes me appreciate the character more, knowing I can feel alongside him and it's unfortunate so many people hate him for it. In real life. 

If Alistair doesn't like your warden, you're not going to get those heart touching moments.  He certainly is not going to trust your warden nor spend a lot of time opening up.  If he doesn't like the warden, you're not going to harden him because he's not going to tell the warden he has a sister.  Nope, there really is no trust there.

I'm not sure what FF7 has to do with anything.  Cloud is seriously flawed (as in absolutely apesh!t insane), and people I don't think hated him when he realized how weak a person he really was and worked with it anyway.  Nor did Vincent's emo moments put people off of him.  What happened with Aeris you mean?  Cloud totally snapped at that moment, didn't he?  It's been awhile since I've played, but I swear he snapped completely, finally, and had to confront himself and put his broken pieces together.

But FF7 doesn't have the depth that DAO has -- it came out in 1997.  The story was complex and amazing for the day, but dialog was very limited.  It's also a JRPG which as a general rule has very different story telling and such than WRPG.

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 juillet 2010 - 04:05 .

[Sarah1281]

ziloe wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I understand what you are saying, but again, I am not even talking about in the game. I am referring to the people who dislike him for having feelings and emotion over a character who was lost.

You've really met people who have said 'God, why does Alistair come with emotions and isn't a robot like all of my other party members that I heart'?

In short, yes. Just, in a little tactful terms. I.e whiny, emo baby, etc.

Then that may describe part of some people's dislike but that doesn't mean disliking Alistair = 'God, he's a whiney emo baby!'

[ejoslin]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I understand what you are saying, but again, I am not even talking about in the game. I am referring to the people who dislike him for having feelings and emotion over a character who was lost.

You've really met people who have said 'God, why does Alistair come with emotions and isn't a robot like all of my other party members that I heart'?

Hah, Sten is the closest to robot like of all the companions, and he totally is not.

[ziloe]

ejoslin wrote...

ziloe wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

So even as a best friend, you would not see the dialogs that really turn people off I suppose. He can be whiny and emo no matter what. You chose dialogs and paths that supported friendship rather than ticked him off.

Look at it this way -- some people just don't like other people. If your warden doesn't like Alistair, Alistair won't like your warden. You'll get his nastier comments. If you make choices he disagrees with, he's pretty pissy, but he will NOT take over leadership again even if you tell him to.

I think I explained why someone wouldn't like Alistair (and I didn't even get into the various Landsmeet issues which can add a whole different dimension to it -- especially the post-Landsmeet dumping).

I understand what you are saying, but again, I am not even talking about in the game. I am referring to the people who dislike him for having feelings and emotion over a character who was lost. 

Like, you have Final Fantasy 7 for instance and the tragic event therein. You have a sad little scene and the game moves on as if it barely touched upon anyone that someone was dead. Many love that game and love Cloud. But do you think it would be the same thing if the almost silent anti hero spoke about his sorrow? Hell no!

So, here you have Dragon Age where the entire game, the whole thing that compels Alistair forward is this tragic event with Duncan and like a real person who trusts you, he opens up to you about it. Many games don't do this at all. This is what I am getting at. It makes me appreciate the character more, knowing I can feel alongside him and it's unfortunate so many people hate him for it. In real life. 

If Alistair doesn't like your warden, you're not going to get those heart touching moments.  He certainly is not going to trust your warden nor spend a lot of time opening up.

I'm not sure what FF7 has to do with anything.  Cloud is seriously flawed (as in absolutely apesh!t insane), and people I don't think hated him when he realized how weak a person he really was and worked with it anyway.  Nor did Vincent's emo moments put people off of him.  What happened with Aeris you mean?  Cloud totally snapped at that moment, didn't he?  It's been awhile since I've played, but I swear he snapped completely, finally, and had to confront himself and put his broken pieces together.

But FF7 doesn't have the depth that DAO has -- it came out in 1997.  The story was complex and amazing for the day, but dialog was very limited.  It's also a JRPG which as a general rule has very different story telling and such than WRPG.

I'm only using FF7 as an example in the way things work. I think the only reason people like Vincent at all is because he turns into a demon and is one of the most powerful party members. 
And yes, I'd say Cloud snapped. However at the same time, you never really get a sense of this other than minor cutscenes. Even Sephiroth is seen as a bad ass, even though he's in my opinion a mommas boy.

That's why I like DA though, because of the depth. Games like this are rare and I haven't loved a game this much since my times with Ogre Battle 64, etc. The difference being, the paths actually affect you and the characters around you. It makes the events mean more, other than most RPG's that I've played that barely acknowledge the depth of the human persona. 

Like, how many times have you played an RPG where the kids home town is burned down, his parents have been killed and he has to fight his way out to escape the wreckage? This happens a lot and in most games, the characters sanity is never questioned. He comes out unscathed and maybe even more chipper than ever, never even questioning the blood of his first kill. I don't think people are used to a character like Alistair and in that way, they grow defensive because it's something they don't experience often in games these days. 

[Zjarcal]

You know, life would be much easier for you if you simply accepted that when people "hate" fictional characters it's because they are well written and thus "worth hating".



Whatever reasons someone could have for hating a character shouldn't be of any concern to you.



For example I love Leliana to pieces and yet I'd never get into an argument with someone who hates her because it's their god given right to hate a character they simply don't like, no matter why. Hell, I could come up with a few moments where even I wanted to slap her (like when she mentions how elves were cute to stare at in Orlais).



Alistair is a really great character who some people love to hate (much like I love to hate Wynne). Nothing wrong with that and nothing that can't be comprehended.

[Zjarcal]

ziloe wrote...

That's why I like DA though, because of the depth.

That's why we ALL love it.

[ziloe]

Zjarcal wrote...

You know, life would be much easier for you if you simply accepted that when people "hate" fictional characters it's because they are well written and thus "worth hating".

Whatever reasons someone could have for hating a character shouldn't be of any concern to you.

For example I love Leliana to pieces and yet I'd never get into an argument with someone who hates her because it's their god given right to hate a character they simply don't like, no matter why. Hell, I could come up with a few moments where even I wanted to slap her (like when she mentions how elves were cute to stare at in Orlais).

Alistair is a really great character who some people love to hate (much like I love to hate Wynne). Nothing wrong with that and nothing that can't be comprehended.

I can respect the opinions given in here perfectly fine, however, I can't respect those on the more so shallow terms, such as him being broken over the loss of Duncan making him apparently childish and emo.

Modifié par ziloe, 03 juillet 2010 - 04:18 .

[ejoslin]

Is it that you want people to explain to you why someone may not like Alistair, or you want to tell people that they're wrong because they have a different opinion than you?



If it's the latter, my contributions have been a waste of space.

[Addai]

ziloe wrote...

I can respect the opinions given in here perfectly fine, however, I can't respect those on the more so shallow terms, such as him being broken over the loss of Duncan making him apparently childish and emo.

People's reactions to a character aren't always perfectly rational.  Sometimes you just dislike someone for whatever reason, and then you complain about certain traits that annoy you.  Whereas someone who likes a person would see those same traits, maybe even recognize them as faults, but be more understanding of them.

I think a lot of people expect a warrior-type male lead to be a certain way.  It does baffle me sometimes to read the reactions to Alistair.  It's as if people would rather he be a musclebound stereotype instead of a more complex character.

[Zjarcal]

Addai67 wrote...

ziloe wrote...

I can respect the opinions given in here perfectly fine, however, I can't respect those on the more so shallow terms, such as him being broken over the loss of Duncan making him apparently childish and emo.

People's reactions to a character aren't always perfectly rational.  Sometimes you just dislike someone for whatever reason, and then you complain about certain traits that annoy you.  Whereas someone who likes a person would see those same traits, maybe even recognize them as faults, but be more understanding of them.

I think a lot of people expect a warrior-type male lead to be a certain way.  It does baffle me sometimes to read the reactions to Alistair.  It's as if people would rather he be a musclebound stereotype instead of a more complex character.

Oh god no! That wouldn't be a character worth pissing off!

[SOLID_EVEREST]

I think you should state your topic "I don't get why I like Alistair" lol.



Alistair's whole emotional trauma is taken too far. I mean people experience loss on a daily basis, and more people were going to die. People's lives are in Alistair's hands, yet he doesn't grow up. As Jesse Ventura says, "I don't have time to bleed," Alistair shouldn't have time to cry. Also, no one is literally forcing Alistair to do the quest, but he does talk a tough game (I will never abandon Ferelden--something to that extent he says). God forbid you do something merciful or else he's outta there--enjoy your blight suckers...

[Chuvvy]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Does anyone else think that Alistair is suffering from survivors guilt? WIth the guardian it seems that it is so to me at least.

Hell yeah he is.

Modifié par Slidell505, 03 juillet 2010 - 07:06 .

[asaiasai]

Allistair is a complex character, but in a way simple as well. He ducks responsibility as senior warden and leaves you in charge, granted this is because the game would to a degree lack the emotional punch it currently has if you were following orders as opposed to issuing them. The cruxt for me is the betrayal of the PC by Allistair at the Landsmeet, if he does not get what he wants (Loghain's head on a pike) he throws a tantrum. Allistair's tantrum at the landsmeet embarrasses not only himself but me as well. He will forsake his personal oath to the wardens the same oath the PC has to take for petty retribution. Unwilling to listen to reason from either a more senior warden (Rhiordan) or the PC he forces the PC to choose, literally backing the PC into a corner where there is no compromise, is not the mark of a friend, at least not any that make my X-mas dinner list. It is because of this betrayal by Allistair that i usually have little or nothing to do with him in game anymore, unlike Morrigan who also betrays the PC at the end with pretty much the same type of demand, all or nothing, at least she can be booted from the party in Lotharin and not soil the area with her presence.



Do not get me wrong i do understand his issue with Loghain, but i think Allistair does not really understand who and what the wardens are. Like Calain both of them have naive romantic notions of war and the wardens and when challanged by reality we do see the difference in what a royal upbringing makes, Calain died with honor, Allistair threw a tantrum then decided only to be king to get what he wanted damn be the consequences for his party, his kingdom, and the war. It is this narrow focus, lack of a big picture understanding that is why Allistair while a nice guy should never ever rule the kingdom alone regardless of what pastel hollywood happy endings the epilogue cards claim. In my plays Allistair is either fed to the AD, executed, or if i am feeling nice married off to Anora, other than that i have no use for him.



Asai

[nos_astra]

asaiasai wrote...
... but i think Allistair does not really understand who and what the wardens are.

Who and what are the Wardens?

[Spitz6860]

on a planet called earth people hate and complain about everything, where are you from?

[Fishy]

Addai67 wrote...

ziloe wrote...

I can respect the opinions given in here perfectly fine, however, I can't respect those on the more so shallow terms, such as him being broken over the loss of Duncan making him apparently childish and emo.

People's reactions to a character aren't always perfectly rational.  Sometimes you just dislike someone for whatever reason, and then you complain about certain traits that annoy you.  Whereas someone who likes a person would see those same traits, maybe even recognize them as faults, but be more understanding of them.

I think a lot of people expect a warrior-type male lead to be a certain way.  It does baffle me sometimes to read the reactions to Alistair.  It's as if people would rather he be a musclebound stereotype instead of a more complex character.

I played a human Noble.My family was killed .. Hell even the kid was killed.Everything i knew was destroyed.
Than Duncan take the opportunity to enslave me and deceive  me..

Than i drink some blood who has a chance to kill me.
Than i'm struck with nightmare and vision . The entire order die and i have to save the world but i have a follower named Allistair crying every damn second about Duncan.But me the noble perfect hero need to shush it .. Because hey i don't have a VO  .

So my character's basicly just a trigger for the companions following me!
But than he complain and he complain and complain again.Talk about how Duncan was so awesome.

When you tell him at the camp that it's suck that you future's doomed because of the darkspawn blood.He start to bark at my pc . .That when my blood started to boil and i wanted to kick his ass.For a guy that claim no one understand what he WANT .. He surely don't understand what the Warden went through and give zero respect for it.

[Bahlgan]

Yea most people who hate Alistair I have an inkling to find out how they treat others in real life. I really don't care if those people complain he is a little whiny. Everyone's got issues, and his is that he just needs to man up a little. Being raised in a chantry without a father to toughen him, until Duncan came along, will do that.. Get over it..

[asaiasai]

klarabella wrote...

asaiasai wrote...
... but i think Allistair does not really understand who and what the wardens are.

Who and what are the Wardens?

I am so glad you took the time to ask that question, now i am going to give you the answer regardless of whether you agree or not.

The wardens are a collection of misfits, thugs, thieves, murderers, traitors, apostates, and in some RARE occasions a person of honor who comes to the notice of wardens through hardwork and dedication. These individuals are offered a choice to remain what they are or become something better. When a warden survives the joining what they were is no longer relevant, nobles loose thier titles, the condemed are granted a new beginning, an opportunity is granted these individuals to join the wardens and redeem themselves. If you look at the Origins candidates Daveth and Jory, we see that while Daveth is a "fellow" who Duncan saved from something unpleasant which probably means the gallows or some other grisly fate.  Like Don Corleone Duncan makes you an offer you can not refuse, swing today or live for a few days more until such time as you are subjected to a ritual that may prove fatal, your signature or your brains will be on the bottom of the contract, now choose. There is no doubt that Ser Jory is a knight of honor and skill, the example of Feraldin chivalry, who as it so happens chickens out when the cup is passed to him. He chose poorly.

The game goes in great detail about the wardens job, which is to stand before the darkness so that others may be spared the task. The game makes it quite clear the the wardens will accept help where ever it is offered, to the point that Morrigan is forced upon you by Flemeth to Allistair's objections and to mine for that matter. Such great importance is placed upon defeating the blight as soon as possible, Duncan even states this in the mage origin where he tells Gregoir that there are more dangerous things than apostates, and blood magic. Duncan will tell the mage candidate while walking back from Irving's office that it takes the land years to recover from a blight. It is because of this that the wardens are granted the right of conscription that NO ONE can refuse, but usually as in the case of the CE, DC, DN, origins the candidate has a much worse fate in store for them if they refuse the offer. Wardens are people of skill with few other options than submit to the joining and possibly die or pass and most assuredly die. This could be considered nothing more than an opportunity for the candidate to breathe for a few more days.

Awakenings even further supports my notion by the very choices the PC is given. Those choices are; a murderess, a drunken dwarf, an abomination, an apostate and blood mage to boot, a deserter and coward, and a Howe. The PC can choose the fate of these individuals by submiting them to the joining and offering them a chance to redeem themselves by answering the call to stand before the advancing darkness and yell no further. Some of the wardens are heros people of good standing like Ser Jory and Ser Mhiri but of all the warden candidates they are the only 2 who can make that claim and neither survives the joining, is that relevant maybe, maybe not, only the writers can tell us for sure.

We are not really given a whole picture from which to draw a conclusion only a small sample, the Wardens of Feraldin may just be the exception to the rule, but i doubt it. The ease with which Duncan will grab anyone of skill and limited options makes me believe that the wardens operate this way because it works. Rhiordin (spelling) when dealing with the Landsmeet tells the PC when they question Loghain's loyalty explains to the PC that "We are what we are". 

Simply put the wardens are sinners, who by virtue of skill, and by what can only be described as the luck of the draw, are given the opportunity  to become saints. Allistair does not either understand this or conviently forgets this, and allows his blood lust to cloud his judgment. Many of you who kill Loghain on sight apparently do not understand this or have conviently forgotten the examples provided as well.

Asai