144 réponses à ce sujet

[Finiffa]

asaiasai wrote...
..... Allistair does not either understand this or conviently forgets this, and allows his blood lust to cloud his judgment. Many of you who kill Loghain on sight apparently do not understand this or have conviently forgotten the examples provided as well.

Asai

And THIS is what I have problems with. Apart from the fact that I do not believe it is BLOOD LUST that drives Alistair, I resent the fact that you seem to know the reasons why other players kill Loghain. Everybody plays this game in his/her own way. There is no good or bad way to play it. Apparently you do not understand or conveniently forget there are good reasons to kill Loghain as well and some players put those first.

[Herr Uhl]

Finiffa wrote...

asaiasai wrote...
..... Allistair does not either understand this or conviently forgets this, and allows his blood lust to cloud his judgment. Many of you who kill Loghain on sight apparently do not understand this or have conviently forgotten the examples provided as well.

Asai

And THIS is what I have problems with. Apart from the fact that I do not believe it is BLOOD LUST that drives Alistair, I resent the fact that you seem to know the reasons why other players kill Loghain. Everybody plays this game in his/her own way. There is no good or bad way to play it. Apparently you do not understand or conveniently forget there are good reasons to kill Loghain as well and some players put those first.

Isn't blood lust a proper term for one who lusts for the death of someone else? Is he thinking clearly at that time?

And I didn't see it as calling the ones who kill Loghain wrong. It is just that you are so gung-ho on killing him (often) that you see everybody that doesn't as wrong. Hence why it is the PC that is in the wrong, and not Alistair.

[asaiasai]

Finiffa wrote...

asaiasai wrote...
..... Allistair does not either understand this or conviently forgets this, and allows his blood lust to cloud his judgment. Many of you who kill Loghain on sight apparently do not understand this or have conviently forgotten the examples provided as well.

Asai

And THIS is what I have problems with. Apart from the fact that I do not believe it is BLOOD LUST that drives Alistair, I resent the fact that you seem to know the reasons why other players kill Loghain. Everybody plays this game in his/her own way. There is no good or bad way to play it. Apparently you do not understand or conveniently forget there are good reasons to kill Loghain as well and some players put those first.

You are entitled to believe what ever you want but it would help in the context of the situation here that maybe one might want to provide some examples of why they feel the way they do as i have done. You have provided nothing here worthy of debate, and no evidence to support your position, and instead of challanging the ideas presented you have chosen to challange the individual instead. Typical of the my character is better than your character argument that so pervades these forums, mostly an emotional butt hurt reaction rife with emotional sentimentalism but short on substance. I have provided an answer to the question i was asked, provided some but not all of the relevant examples to support my position.

There are compelling reasons for either character to be killed, but as i have stated Allistair is supposedly a friend and his behavior can hardly be accepted from a friend, where as for Loghain as an adversary his behavior is expected. In this case the nod goes to Loghain and Allistair gets what ever i feel he deserves which as you have so eloquently stated is the player option.

Asai

[Finiffa]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Finiffa wrote...

asaiasai wrote...
..... Allistair does not either understand this or conviently forgets this, and allows his blood lust to cloud his judgment. Many of you who kill Loghain on sight apparently do not understand this or have conviently forgotten the examples provided as well.

Asai

And THIS is what I have problems with. Apart from the fact that I do not believe it is BLOOD LUST that drives Alistair, I resent the fact that you seem to know the reasons why other players kill Loghain. Everybody plays this game in his/her own way. There is no good or bad way to play it. Apparently you do not understand or conveniently forget there are good reasons to kill Loghain as well and some players put those first.

Isn't blood lust a proper term for one who lusts for the death of someone else? Is he thinking clearly at that time?

And I didn't see it as calling the ones who kill Loghain wrong. It is just that you are so gung-ho on killing him (often) that you see everybody that doesn't as wrong. Hence why it is the PC that is in the wrong, and not Alistair.

My PC's are rarely gung-ho on killing him, apart from maybe my very first playthrough, when I didnt even know what would happen with Alistair if I tried to spare him. I usually end up killing Loghain but not always. Depends on the PC I play. And I DID take it as saying those who kill Loghain are wrong. That irks me. I do not say those that spare Loghain are wrong at all.  

I see blood lust more as "killing for the killing itself". But thats just a way of interpreting.

BUT as usual an Alistair discussion turn to Loghain. *raises hand* guilty as charged

[Master Shiori]

I wouldn't go so far as to say I hate him, but I do have issues with some of his behaviour during the game.


1) His reaction to Duncan's death

I can understand the need to mourn the loss of a man who was like a father to him. However, that doesn't justify him leaving the Warden to handle the his/her own grief, leadership responsibilities and coming to term with being a Grey Warden all by himself.
And the worst part is that he never seems to be able to come to terms with his grief and will always bring it up whenever you mention the Grey Wardens or Duncan in any context.
I can show sympathy and understanding the first time we talk about it, but later on it really starts to get on my nerves.


2) You can't stand that companions have their own opinions and may disagree with you

People seem to love to use this argument whenever somebody says he doesn't like Alistair's whinning. and it's completely off the mark.
Every companion will disagree with you at some point and offer his/her own opinion. However, once you've reached a decision he/she will accept it even if they don't approve of what you plan to do. Alistair is the only one who will bring it up afterwards and berate you for it, even though he is the one who put you in charge and thus has no right to complain about how you handle things, expecially since every decision you can make in this game is in line with Grey Warden policies, even if it's morally questionable.
If he truly wants my character to carry the burden of leadership and decision making alone, then fine. Just don't bother crying about my choices when they don't turn out the way you expected.


3) Landsmeet

This, for me, is the point where my opinion of Alistair takes the biggest hit.
As a Grey Warden, he has sworn an oath to stop the Blight at any cost. More so, he constantly goes on about how much the Grey Wardens mean to him and how he respects Duncan and wants to honor his memory. Yet, when you spare Loghain, who is not only a greater asset to you alive than dead, but that is also what Riordan and Duncan would have done in your shoes, Alistair does what? He spits on everything he claimed to value up to that point and storms off because of his own petty vengeance.
I expected him to be angry at my character for sparing Loghain. I knew our friendship would be shattered because of my decision. I can accept that and even understand why he would feel the way he does.
What I cannot accept is him turning his back on everything for the sake of revenge. If Duncan were alive he would probably be ashamed of Alistair by that point.
Ironically, Alistair didn't "become a man" at the Landsmeet as some like to claim. He fell into the same trap as Loghain; he allowed his personal passion and hatred to blind him to reality. However, unlike Loghain who is willing to set aside his feelings in order to save his country and even die doing so, Alistair will storm off and become a wandering drunkard.


That said, I'd like to stress that I do like Alistair as a character. I find him to be childish and naive at times, but also a loyal friend and a person with a strong moral compass. I made him king alongside Anora in all my games except one, where my Cousland became prince-consort.

That said, I know he has his own opinion on how things should be done and he's welcome to share it with me. That doesn't mean I'm obliged to agree with him and do as he says (even Morrigan's opinion isn't always acceptable for me and she's the DA character I love the most).
If he feels the need to cry and argue about it then fine, but that won't make me change my mind or turn a blind eye to his many flaws.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 03 juillet 2010 - 12:06 .

[Herr Uhl]

He does want to kill him, I can accept that. It is that he leaves when he doesn't get to see Loghain dead, a decision that he will likely come to regret in the future.



I don't hate or dislike Alistair btw, but I can easily see how one might.

[ziloe]

ejoslin wrote...

Is it that you want people to explain to you why someone may not like Alistair, or you want to tell people that they're wrong because they have a different opinion than you?

If it's the latter, my contributions have been a waste of space.

Do you even actually read my posts? I have answered this over three times throughout this discussion.

I have appreciated the more complex answers, however, before last night, that wasn't what I saw at all. Lurking the forums, I'd always see someone complain about Alistair's emotion. Their hate for him was not complex at all.

Modifié par ziloe, 03 juillet 2010 - 12:42 .

[Herr Uhl]

ejoslin wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I understand what you are saying, but again, I am not even talking about in the game. I am referring to the people who dislike him for having feelings and emotion over a character who was lost.

You've really met people who have said 'God, why does Alistair come with emotions and isn't a robot like all of my other party members that I heart'?

Hah, Sten is the closest to robot like of all the companions, and he totally is not.

He isn't a robot. He is succinct.

And he *is* smiling.

[ejoslin]

ziloe wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Is it that you want people to explain to you why someone may not like Alistair, or you want to tell people that they're wrong because they have a different opinion than you?

If it's the latter, my contributions have been a waste of space.

Do you even actually read my posts? I have answered this over three times throughout this discussion.

I have appreciated the more complex answers, however, before last night, that wasn't what I saw at all. Lurking the forums, I'd always see someone complain about Alistair's emotion. Their hate for him was not complex at all.

Of course I did; that's why I asked the question. 

[ziloe]

ejoslin wrote...

ziloe wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Is it that you want people to explain to you why someone may not like Alistair, or you want to tell people that they're wrong because they have a different opinion than you?

If it's the latter, my contributions have been a waste of space.

Do you even actually read my posts? I have answered this over three times throughout this discussion.

I have appreciated the more complex answers, however, before last night, that wasn't what I saw at all. Lurking the forums, I'd always see someone complain about Alistair's emotion. Their hate for him was not complex at all.

Of course I did; that's why I asked the question. 

I imagine you wouldn't have needed to ask then. ;P

[ejoslin]

ziloe wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

ziloe wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Is it that you want people to explain to you why someone may not like Alistair, or you want to tell people that they're wrong because they have a different opinion than you?

If it's the latter, my contributions have been a waste of space.

Do you even actually read my posts? I have answered this over three times throughout this discussion.

I have appreciated the more complex answers, however, before last night, that wasn't what I saw at all. Lurking the forums, I'd always see someone complain about Alistair's emotion. Their hate for him was not complex at all.

Of course I did; that's why I asked the question. 

I imagine you wouldn't have needed to ask then. ;P

No, because it really seems you're trying to argue why other people shouldn't hate Alistair, not gain an understanding into why someone may not like him.

Edit: You have not seen as many sides to Alistair as a lot of people have.  And not everyone likes all people anyway.

He is extremely well written.  The only way he would be likable to everyone is if he were a shallow character.  He's not.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 juillet 2010 - 01:04 .

[ziloe]

ejoslin wrote...

ziloe wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

ziloe wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Is it that you want people to explain to you why someone may not like Alistair, or you want to tell people that they're wrong because they have a different opinion than you?

If it's the latter, my contributions have been a waste of space.

Do you even actually read my posts? I have answered this over three times throughout this discussion.

I have appreciated the more complex answers, however, before last night, that wasn't what I saw at all. Lurking the forums, I'd always see someone complain about Alistair's emotion. Their hate for him was not complex at all.

Of course I did; that's why I asked the question. 

I imagine you wouldn't have needed to ask then. ;P

No, because it really seems you're trying to argue why other people shouldn't hate Alistair, not gain an understanding into why someone may not like him.

Edit: You have not seen as many sides to Alistair as a lot of people have.  And not everyone likes all people anyway.

He is extremely well written.  The only way he would be likable to everyone is if he were a shallow character.  He's not.  

And therein lies my issue. He would be likeable all around if he were shallow and uncaring, because he would never question your leadership or your actions like a real person could. It's not that I have an issue with people who hate Alistair, it's more so that I dislike the people, (unlike yourself and a few others here) who hate him for very shallow reasons. Most games have characters that can appeal to everyone because they aren't that indepth at all. 

When I see the ignorance of people, it just makes me a very disappointed human being and more the misanthrope I am today. I suppose that's why I appreciate games, they can reflect the honorable sense of society that barely exists today IMHO.

I play to be the hero. Unless it's a bad day and I just want to be an ass.

Modifié par ziloe, 03 juillet 2010 - 01:33 .

[Sara1010p]

I have a quick question, I am not entering a debate on who's right or wrong, I simply want an opinion, since so many have strong opinions on what a warden is or isn't, and what they would or wouldn't do. The Dark Ritual, for all of you, who say your main beef with Alistair is his leaving at the Landsmeet if you don't kill Logain, do you think the Wardens would support the decision to do the Dark Ritual, and how many of you accept Morrigan's offer or turn her down? Not entering a debate as I have said, just want an opinion on how this is viewed by those that view Alistair's reaction at the Landsmeet as wrong.

[ziloe]

Sara1010p wrote...

I have a quick question, I am not entering a debate on who's right or wrong, I simply want an opinion, since so many have strong opinions on what a warden is or isn't, and what they would or wouldn't do. The Dark Ritual, for all of you, who say your main beef with Alistair is his leaving at the Landsmeet if you don't kill Logain, do you think the Wardens would support the decision to do the Dark Ritual, and how many of you accept Morrigan's offer or turn her down? Not entering a debate as I have said, just want an opinion on how this is viewed by those that view Alistair's reaction at the Landsmeet as wrong.

Personally, I think it would be against it. I mean, as much as they can hire anyone, even cut throats, etc. It stands against everything the Warden stands for. It's a dark secret they keep and without it, they would hold not very much responsibility or sacrifice for their country.  

[Master Shiori]

Sara1010p wrote...

I have a quick question, I am not entering a debate on who's right or wrong, I simply want an opinion, since so many have strong opinions on what a warden is or isn't, and what they would or wouldn't do. The Dark Ritual, for all of you, who say your main beef with Alistair is his leaving at the Landsmeet if you don't kill Logain, do you think the Wardens would support the decision to do the Dark Ritual, and how many of you accept Morrigan's offer or turn her down? Not entering a debate as I have said, just want an opinion on how this is viewed by those that view Alistair's reaction at the Landsmeet as wrong.

Personally, I don't view Dark Ritual as wrong since whatever you decide the Blight will be stopped and the Archdemon dead.

I think that particular topic has more to do with how you view the Old Gods themselves.

I always accept Morrigan's offer. She's been a loyal companion by that point and I trust her. So, for me agreeing to do the DR is more about rewarding Morrigan for her aid.
The hard part for me is watching her leave afterwards, but I did tell her I'd find her so hopefully I'll be able to deal with the consequences of my actions in the future and see if my decision was the right one.

Did I betray the Grey Wardens by doing so? I don't think I did. I stopped the Blight as was my duty. The fact that I didn't do it in a traditional way isn't relevent to me. It's the end that matters, not the means.

[ejoslin]

ziloe wrote...

And therein lies my issue. He would be likeable all around if he were shallow and uncaring, because he would never question your leadership or your actions like a real person could. It's not that I have an issue with people who hate Alistair, it's more so that I dislike the people, (unlike yourself and a few others here) who hate him for very shallow reasons. Most games have characters that can appeal to everyone because they aren't that indepth at all. 

When I see the ignorance of people, it just makes me a very disappointed human being and more the misanthrope I am today. I suppose that's why I appreciate games, they can reflect the honorable sense of society that barely exists today IMHO.

I play to be the hero. Unless it's a bad day and I just want to be an ass.

Hmmm, I've stated repeatedly that some games my warden likes Alistair, and other games she doesn't.  I should make clear that I've played the game, complete game, probably over 20 times, and then parts of it I've played and replayed for testing purposes.  

See, some people really do resent that Alistair does not acknowledge the warden's grief. With the human noble, he apologizes, all other races, he does not.  Really, I think Alistair first basically ignoring and then forgetting a city elf female telling him that her fiance was just murdered really highlights his self-absorption (or is an oversight).  

Some people just don't want to be Alistair's support.  They just went through a major trauma of their own, they know NOTHING about being a Grey Warden, and suddenly they're forced to lead the way AND basically do it on their own, despite recently losing everything themselves.  

Some people don't like their every decision being questioned, sure.  Heh, first time I played, I had Alistair romanced, was completely in love, and was totally shocked over how he berated my Warden for killing Connor, placing the blame 100% on her, when he was the one who said it had to be done.

Some people are absolutely blown away by one of two things that can happen at the landsmeet.  The public tantrum, and the public dumping.  Actually, my first playthrough (unspoiled) I went through the public dumping, and it was quite awhile before I could even think about romancing him again.

Now, I don't want to debate whether Alistair was justified in either of those -- there's no faster way to kill a thread than that.  So even assuming that Alistair was 100% right in both circumstances (I don't CARE), the scenes are so ugly that they can put people off.

[Costin_Razvan]

There are various reasons one can hate a character. But seriously what's the bloody problem with it? If you honestly expect people to like a character, then you are sadly mistaken.

Calling Alistair whinny and annoying might be juvenile, but people might view him as such...and it is a valid viewpoint ( not my own, my qualms with Alistair mostly relate to Loghain/Eamon/The Crown.)

"Takes his leave quickly before this turns to Loghain, AGAIN."

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 03 juillet 2010 - 03:10 .

[Chuvvy]

asaiasai wrote...

klarabella wrote...

asaiasai wrote...
... but i think Allistair does not really understand who and what the wardens are.

Who and what are the Wardens?

I am so glad you took the time to ask that question, now i am going to give you the answer regardless of whether you agree or not.

The wardens are a collection of misfits, thugs, thieves, murderers, traitors, apostates, and in some RARE occasions a person of honor who comes to the notice of wardens through hardwork and dedication. These individuals are offered a choice to remain what they are or become something better. When a warden survives the joining what they were is no longer relevant, nobles loose thier titles, the condemed are granted a new beginning, an opportunity is granted these individuals to join the wardens and redeem themselves. If you look at the Origins candidates Daveth and Jory, we see that while Daveth is a "fellow" who Duncan saved from something unpleasant which probably means the gallows or some other grisly fate.  Like Don Corleone Duncan makes you an offer you can not refuse, swing today or live for a few days more until such time as you are subjected to a ritual that may prove fatal, your signature or your brains will be on the bottom of the contract, now choose. There is no doubt that Ser Jory is a knight of honor and skill, the example of Feraldin chivalry, who as it so happens chickens out when the cup is passed to him. He chose poorly.

The game goes in great detail about the wardens job, which is to stand before the darkness so that others may be spared the task. The game makes it quite clear the the wardens will accept help where ever it is offered, to the point that Morrigan is forced upon you by Flemeth to Allistair's objections and to mine for that matter. Such great importance is placed upon defeating the blight as soon as possible, Duncan even states this in the mage origin where he tells Gregoir that there are more dangerous things than apostates, and blood magic. Duncan will tell the mage candidate while walking back from Irving's office that it takes the land years to recover from a blight. It is because of this that the wardens are granted the right of conscription that NO ONE can refuse, but usually as in the case of the CE, DC, DN, origins the candidate has a much worse fate in store for them if they refuse the offer. Wardens are people of skill with few other options than submit to the joining and possibly die or pass and most assuredly die. This could be considered nothing more than an opportunity for the candidate to breathe for a few more days.

Awakenings even further supports my notion by the very choices the PC is given. Those choices are; a murderess, a drunken dwarf, an abomination, an apostate and blood mage to boot, a deserter and coward, and a Howe. The PC can choose the fate of these individuals by submiting them to the joining and offering them a chance to redeem themselves by answering the call to stand before the advancing darkness and yell no further. Some of the wardens are heros people of good standing like Ser Jory and Ser Mhiri but of all the warden candidates they are the only 2 who can make that claim and neither survives the joining, is that relevant maybe, maybe not, only the writers can tell us for sure.

We are not really given a whole picture from which to draw a conclusion only a small sample, the Wardens of Feraldin may just be the exception to the rule, but i doubt it. The ease with which Duncan will grab anyone of skill and limited options makes me believe that the wardens operate this way because it works. Rhiordin (spelling) when dealing with the Landsmeet tells the PC when they question Loghain's loyalty explains to the PC that "We are what we are". 

Simply put the wardens are sinners, who by virtue of skill, and by what can only be described as the luck of the draw, are given the opportunity  to become saints. Allistair does not either understand this or conviently forgets this, and allows his blood lust to cloud his judgment. Many of you who kill Loghain on sight apparently do not understand this or have conviently forgotten the examples provided as well.

Asai

Summarise that in like a sentence or two?

[Sara1010p]

As far as hating Alistair, I agree with him being a very well developed character and think that is the most likely reason for it, I can't believe how very well David Gaider did his character, all of the character's in Dragon Age really, I mean, look at the responses the game provokes. I know I have likes and dislikes about every character, even the ones I find the most reprehensive, I still find something to like about. So it really doesn't surprise me that some love or like Alistair while some hate him, Life is like that, not everyone likes everyone else, and sometimes it isn't for any logical reasons either, sometimes it is purely emotional, even when we don't want to admit we have those emotions.

[Hyper Cutter]

Slidell505 wrote...
Summarise that in like a sentence or two?

Wardens aren't noble, they're an ugly solution to an even uglier problem.

[Chuvvy]

Finiffa wrote...

asaiasai wrote...
..... Allistair does not either understand this or conviently forgets this, and allows his blood lust to cloud his judgment. Many of you who kill Loghain on sight apparently do not understand this or have conviently forgotten the examples provided as well.

Asai

And THIS is what I have problems with. Apart from the fact that I do not believe it is BLOOD LUST that drives Alistair, I resent the fact that you seem to know the reasons why other players kill Loghain. Everybody plays this game in his/her own way. There is no good or bad way to play it. Apparently you do not understand or conveniently forget there are good reasons to kill Loghain as well and some players put those first.

In the begining of the game he says something like "Bloodlust is very atractive. Did you know that?" If you say "I look forward to killing the darkspawn." If you took the dalish origin you should be able to butt**** him and say. "They killed my best friend and destroyed my life. Did you know that?" Too bad you can't say anything. The Dalish orgin was poorly implimented, too bad as well it's my favorite one.

Sorry reading bloodlust made me think of that.

Modifié par Slidell505, 03 juillet 2010 - 06:54 .

[Chuvvy]

Hyper Cutter wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...
Summarise that in like a sentence or two?

Wardens aren't noble, they're an ugly solution to an even uglier problem.

Danke schoen.

[Ash Wind]

I think the biggest complaint is how he handles the Landsmeet. I understand the Devs wanted to force you to make a choice, and that is cool. But they could have done it with less stain on Ali's character.

When he quits, he just doesn't abandon the Warden if you spare Loghain, he abandons the idea of the Grey Wardens and the people of Ferelden (and I am supposed to still make him King... no.) which seems out of character for him



I think a better soution would have him leave your party and hate your guts, but show up in the final battle against the AD, not under your control, but there fighting, like Arl Eamon or the First Enchanter.



If they had gone that route, I think there would be less hate for Ali.

[Herr Uhl]

Ash Wind wrote...

I think the biggest complaint is how he handles the Landsmeet. I understand the Devs wanted to force you to make a choice, and that is cool. But they could have done it with less stain on Ali's character.
When he quits, he just doesn't abandon the Warden if you spare Loghain, he abandons the idea of the Grey Wardens and the people of Ferelden (and I am supposed to still make him King... no.) which seems out of character for him

I think a better soution would have him leave your party and hate your guts, but show up in the final battle against the AD, not under your control, but there fighting, like Arl Eamon or the First Enchanter.

If they had gone that route, I think there would be less hate for Ali.

And there would be less hate for serial murderers if they didn't kill people too.

[Ash Wind]

so profound... you should write fortune cookies