144 réponses à ce sujet

[adneate]

Look I can solve this whole debate once and for all. Don't like a Dragon Age character?

[Suron]

klarabella wrote...

Suron wrote...
And frankly the Wardens should be hunting him down and telling him it's come back or die

You should listen to Riordan and ask him about loyalty. He will tell you that you can in fact leave the Wardens.

Yes, the Warden policy is full of contradictions.

well then that certainly cements Duncan as a mudering douchebag then doesn't.  So much for there is no going back.

[Collider]

Alistair at the Landsmeet Poll

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

When I see the ignorance of people, it just makes me a very disappointed human being and more the misanthrope I am today. I suppose that's why I appreciate games, they can reflect the honorable sense of society that barely exists today IMHO.

...So you're saying that people disliking a video game character is destroying your faith in humanity? That's kind of extreme, to say the least.

Eh, for me it's humans losing their faith in themselves over such trivial things such as *gasp* diversity of opinions, that is making me consider losing my faith in humanity.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 juillet 2010 - 11:41 .

[Jestina]

Oh Alistair not this again.

[Collider]

klarabella wrote...

Collider wrote...

I don't see anyone saying that Alistair should have no emotion, or faulting him for having them.

I do see people doing exactly that, mostly in comparison with their Warden who comes almost as a blank slate to fit all origins in one "creature" .... but had it soooo muuuuch haaaaarder and doesn't get to whine a bit.

Not exactly the same. People are faulting Alistair not for having emotions, but what the emotions are and for what reason he is displaying them. Unless you'd like to quote a post where someone effectively says they want Alistair to be a stoic robot.

Modifié par Collider, 04 juillet 2010 - 12:01 .

[Livemmo]

The man is impossible to please. No matter what you do, good or bad, he always has something to moan about. To say he's like Carth is a vast understatement. The man is truley the 2009 version of Carth. Even during good playthroughs I lock his ass up in the dungeon.

[DarthRomance]

when I play a female character I like him. When a male, I hate him. Probably a male competition complex. I dunno. Even if I am evil, I feel bad pissing him off as a female. But even as a good man character, I wanna decapitate him at all times (personally, not my character). He is too much of a cocky smartass to be a guy's guy so I hate him as that, plus he gets to be a prince while I don't. As the male lead I think he is cool.

[Esoj16]

Collider wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Collider wrote...

I don't see anyone saying that Alistair should have no emotion, or faulting him for having them.

I do see people doing exactly that, mostly in comparison with their Warden who comes almost as a blank slate to fit all origins in one "creature" .... but had it soooo muuuuch haaaaarder and doesn't get to whine a bit.

Not exactly the same. People are faulting Alistair not for having emotions, but what the emotions are and for what reason he is displaying them. Unless you'd like to quote a post where someone effectively says they want Alistair to be a stoic robot.

I don't see what's so wrong about Alistair's emotions, the HN got to take revenge on Howe, the DN can get revenge on Bhelen, the CE can kill Vaughn right away, so why is it that it's so wrong for Alistair to be mad at the warden for denying him his revenge? 

I think those people that think of Alistair as childish for mourning the loss of his only fatherly figure, while their warden had to "swallow up" their sorrow, are forgetting that their warden gets revenge and closure for their loss while Alistair doesn't, he obviously has an opinion as do all the other companions so I don't get that argument either, Sten wants to take over just for taking him to haven, yet no one says bad things about him (note that Sten is one of my favorite companions)

Yes he likes to hide behind the warden and just follow orders, but that's just part of his character and the fact that he disagrees with some of the warden's decisions is natural, every companion does that and that's what gives them depth, so just give Alistair a break, he's awesome

[thegreateski]

The Warden's revenge doesn't endanger the entire world.



Alistair's does.

[Collider]

I don't see what's so wrong about Alistair's emotions, the HN got to take revenge on Howe, the DN can get revenge on Bhelen, the CE can kill Vaughn right away, so why is it that it's so wrong for Alistair to be mad at the warden for denying him his revenge?

For one thing, the PC does not have to take revenge on Vaughn or Bhelen. AFAIK, the PC doesn't have to say anything particularly vindictive to Howe.



It's not Alistair just being "mad." He leaves the Grey Wardens forever if you spare Loghain and he becomes a drunkard.

Yes he likes to hide behind the warden and just follow orders, but that's just part of his character and the fact that he disagrees with some of the warden's decisions is natural, every companion does that and that's what gives them

It's not so much that he has opinions. It's what specifically the opinions are and why he has them.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Meh, I would not have killed Howe in the middle of his house right before the landsmeet like a criminal, even as a Cousland. Sadly there is no option not to kill him.

[Esoj16]

Collider wrote...

I don't see what's so wrong about Alistair's emotions, the HN got to take revenge on Howe, the DN can get revenge on Bhelen, the CE can kill Vaughn right away, so why is it that it's so wrong for Alistair to be mad at the warden for denying him his revenge?

For one thing, the PC does not have to take revenge on Vaughn or Bhelen. AFAIK, the PC doesn't have to say anything particularly vindictive to Howe.

It's not Alistair just being "mad." He leaves the Grey Wardens forever if you spare Loghain and he becomes a drunkard.

Yes he likes to hide behind the warden and just follow orders, but that's just part of his character and the fact that he disagrees with some of the warden's decisions is natural, every companion does that and that's what gives them

It's not so much that he has opinions. It's what specifically the opinions are and why he has them.

It all depends on how you play your warden, obviously evil wardens don't care about their cousin getting raped so they might let Vaughn live, same thing with Bhelen, but Alistair is obviously not an evil warden, he's a goody two-shoes, and while I agree that he shouldn't have just abandoned the Grey Wardens it's still his choice, and it's a very human choice to make, I doubt you'll stay a cop if your fellow cops let the murderer of your father become a cop himself and avoid all punishment,

And what's your points about his opinions? His opinions are perfectly rational if you look at them from his perspective, if anything Sten's and Morrigan's opinions tend to be much more irrational than Alistair's.

And to the other poster, I don't really see how killing Loghain endangers the world  he's the one that caused all the trouble of the civil war so his death is actually a good thing, sure the truly good thing to do would be to spare him and make use of him, but such a choice is a hard one to make when he killed all the people you called a family.

[Herr Uhl]

Link3521 wrote...

Sten wants to take over just for taking him to haven, yet no one says bad things about him (note that Sten is one of my favorite companions)

Well, I do agree with Sten's sentiments there, it is a silly premise for the quest, but that is besides the point.

Nobody says anything bad about Sten? Few say good things about him either. That is because he isn't:
1. Romanceable or
2. Unavoidable in a pivotal place in the storyline

Alistair happens to be both, and thus gets more attention. More attention means more negative such as well.

[Esoj16]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Link3521 wrote...

Sten wants to take over just for taking him to haven, yet no one says bad things about him (note that Sten is one of my favorite companions)

Well, I do agree with Sten's sentiments there, it is a silly premise for the quest, but that is besides the point.

Nobody says anything bad about Sten? Few say good things about him either. That is because he isn't:
1. Romanceable or
2. Unavoidable in a pivotal place in the storyline

Alistair happens to be both, and thus gets more attention. More attention means more negative such as well.

True  still I think Alistair gets judged unfairly by a lot of people on the forums.

[Collider]

It all depends on how you play your warden, obviously evil wardens don't care about their cousin getting raped so they might let Vaughn live,

Maybe I am simply not remembering, but doesn't killing Vaughn put the entire alienage in danger? I thought the deal Vaughn was trying to make with the City Elf was that he'd give you money if you spared him and kept your mouth shut and wouldn't bother the alienage anymore. Something like that.

same thing with Bhelen,

Orzammar needs a king so the Dwarves can help against the Blight. Bhelen's a jerk, but he also wants to abolish to amend the oppressive and unfair caste system and open Orzammar to outside trade, but of which will help the Dwarves.

but Alistair is obviously not an evil warden, he's a goody two-shoes, and while I agree that he shouldn't have just abandoned the Grey Wardens it's still his choice, and it's a very human choice to make, I doubt you'll stay a cop if your fellow cops let the murderer of your father become a cop himself and avoid all punishment,

That's not exactly the same. Only the Wardens can defeat the Blight - and if the Blight is not defeated, everyone dies. If Alistair leaves the Grey Wardens, he is weakening the effort to repel something that could get everyone in Ferelden killed.

And what's your points about his opinions? His opinions are perfectly rational if you look at them from his perspective, if anything Sten's and Morrigan's opinions tend to be much more irrational than Alistair's.

His opinions are also that he'd abandon the Grey Wardens if Loghain is not executed.

And to the other poster, I don't really see how killing Loghain endangers the world http://social.biowar...ns/blushing.png he's the one that caused all the trouble of the civil war so his death is actually a good thing, sure the truly good thing to do would be to spare him and make use of him, but such a choice is a hard one to make when he killed all the people you called a family.

Alistair leaving the Grey Wardens endangers the world.

[Esoj16]

Collider wrote...

It all depends on how you play your warden, obviously evil wardens don't care about their cousin getting raped so they might let Vaughn live,

Maybe I am simply not remembering, but doesn't killing Vaughn put the entire alienage in danger? I thought the deal Vaughn was trying to make with the City Elf was that he'd give you money if you spared him and kept your mouth shut and wouldn't bother the alienage anymore. Something like that.

same thing with Bhelen,

Orzammar needs a king so the Dwarves can help against the Blight. Bhelen's a jerk, but he also wants to abolish to amend the oppressive and unfair caste system and open Orzammar to outside trade, but of which will help the Dwarves.

but Alistair is obviously not an evil warden, he's a goody two-shoes, and while I agree that he shouldn't have just abandoned the Grey Wardens it's still his choice, and it's a very human choice to make, I doubt you'll stay a cop if your fellow cops let the murderer of your father become a cop himself and avoid all punishment,

That's not exactly the same. Only the Wardens can defeat the Blight - and if the Blight is not defeated, everyone dies. If Alistair leaves the Grey Wardens, he is weakening the effort to repel something that could get everyone in Ferelden killed.

And what's your points about his opinions? His opinions are perfectly rational if you look at them from his perspective, if anything Sten's and Morrigan's opinions tend to be much more irrational than Alistair's.

His opinions are also that he'd abandon the Grey Wardens if Loghain is not executed.

And to the other poster, I don't really see how killing Loghain endangers the world http://social.biowar...ns/blushing.png he's the one that caused all the trouble of the civil war so his death is actually a good thing, sure the truly good thing to do would be to spare him and make use of him, but such a choice is a hard one to make when he killed all the people you called a family.

Alistair leaving the Grey Wardens endangers the world.

On Vaughn, how naive can you be? No offense meant of course but it's obvious that someone like Vaughn wouldn't keep his word, and even if he did it is not your body to sell, wether for the "greater good" or not so your choice is ultimately evil

I agree on your point of Bhelen, a practical warden would choose him but a warden that always goes for the moral choice will not, it's as simple as that, I actually tend to choose Bhelen more than Harrowmot on my non-DN wardens

I still don't see what your point is on Alistair, on my cop analogy if a cop leaves he's also endangering the public but it's perfectly human to make that choice, just like it's perfectly human of Alistair to decide to leave, it just shows that his character has depth and is not just a robot without feelings, unlike most wardens people make since they have no true connection to their wardens' lifes, Alistair's choice to leave the wardens if Loghain is spared is perfectly justified, whether it was the right choice or not that's another debate.

[Collider]

On Vaughn, how naive can you be? No offense meant of course but it's obvious that someone like Vaughn wouldn't keep his word, and even if he did it is not your body to sell, wether for the "greater good" or not so your choice is ultimately evil

Lol, I'd prefer you not imply I am naive. First of all, I haven't played as a City Elf and secondly I said myself that I did not know the specifics of what Vaughn said because I may not remember them well. Thank you.

@cop analogy: The difference is that in Dragon Age, the world's fate - or Ferelden's fate at least - hangs in the balance. In the cop analogy you posted, all you said was a cop leaving because a murderer was let on the team. The situation with Dragon Age is immensely different. Only the Grey Wardens can stop the blight. If the blight isn't stopped, everyone dies.

Modifié par Collider, 04 juillet 2010 - 01:08 .

[Esoj16]

Collider wrote...

On Vaughn, how naive can you be? No offense meant of course but it's obvious that someone like Vaughn wouldn't keep his word, and even if he did it is not your body to sell, wether for the "greater good" or not so your choice is ultimately evil

Lol, I'd prefer you not imply I am naive. First of all, I haven't played as a City Elf and secondly I said myself that I did not know the specifics of what Vaughn said because I may not remember them well. Thank you.

@cop analogy: The difference is that in Dragon Age, the world's fate - or Ferelden's fate at least - hangs in the balance. In the cop analogy you posted, all you said was a cop leaving because a murderer was let on the team. The situation with Dragon Age is immensely different. Only the Grey Wardens can stop the blight. If the blight isn't stopped, everyone dies.

I meant no offense, honest  since you haven't played as a CE then you don't really know what happens and I assumed you did.

I know it's not the same thing and obviously a blight is much worse than a few criminals running around, but the main point stands, Alistair's reaction is a normal human reaction and there is nothing wrong with it, if I put myself on Alistair's shoes in real life I would probably react in a similar manner, I don't know for sure if I would leave the wardens but I would refuse to the death to battle alongside Loghain.

[Giggles_Manically]

Comparing Carth to Alistair is insulting to Carth.



Carth comes around and helps a reformed Dark Lord of the Sith (SPOILERS" YOU ARE REVAN!") Although he would have gladly killed Revan befor,e fighting with him/her against the sith changed him and he eventually becomse a friend or a lover of the person who burned his homeworld. Getting called partner by him on Korriban was a great moment in KOTOR.



Alistair runs away and has a hissy fit about Loghain, who did something not even near the scale Darth Revan pulled. So in short he fails in that regard, while Carth steps up.



While Carth is not my favourite charachter he has my respect, Alistair does not.

[KnightofPhoenix]

To be fair, It was Malak who destroyed Telos, Carth's homeworld, and not Revan, whom the game specifies chose to keep collateral and infrastructure damage to a minimum.

But, Darth Revan is still the man who turned on Carth's beloved Republic and almost destroyed it. So you have a point.

[MKDAWUSS]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Comparing Carth to Alistair is insulting to Carth.

Carth comes around and helps a reformed Dark Lord of the Sith (SPOILERS" YOU ARE REVAN!") Although he would have gladly killed Revan befor,e fighting with him/her against the sith changed him and he eventually becomse a friend or a lover of the person who burned his homeworld. Getting called partner by him on Korriban was a great moment in KOTOR.

Alistair runs away and has a hissy fit about Loghain, who did something not even near the scale Darth Revan pulled. So in short he fails in that regard, while Carth steps up.

While Carth is not my favourite charachter he has my respect, Alistair does not.

The similarities are there, but like you said, there are differences. Carth's lead gripe was Saul Karath, who was his Loghain, so to speak.

[Giggles_Manically]

I liked Carth actually he is funnier than Alistair, but he cant beat out Jolee or Canderous. If Carth can side with Revan, and Alistair cant side with Loghain then Carth wins out in that regard.

[KnightofPhoenix]

If I remember correctly, Saul Karath was both Carth's Duncan and Loghain. Which is a lot more interesting and nuanced.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 juillet 2010 - 02:02 .

[Giggles_Manically]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Comparing Carth to Alistair is insulting to Carth.

Carth comes around and helps a reformed Dark Lord of the Sith (SPOILERS" YOU ARE REVAN!") Although he would have gladly killed Revan befor,e fighting with him/her against the sith changed him and he eventually becomse a friend or a lover of the person who burned his homeworld. Getting called partner by him on Korriban was a great moment in KOTOR.

Alistair runs away and has a hissy fit about Loghain, who did something not even near the scale Darth Revan pulled. So in short he fails in that regard, while Carth steps up.

While Carth is not my favourite charachter he has my respect, Alistair does not.

The similarities are there, but like you said, there are differences. Carth's lead gripe was Saul Karath, who was his Loghain, so to speak.

Except that Karath has zero redeeming qualities.  Loghain does so I cant just whack him in many cases