68 réponses à ce sujet

[yogolol]

So, incase you haven't finished the game this thread will have spoilers, so stop reading now if you don't want to be spoiled.

SPOILERS

When you get the option to have Loghain become a Grey Warden and join you I heard that Alistar will leave your team, I'm just wondering how good Loghain is and if he's worth it because atm Alistar is my groups tank (with Sten doing some 2h offtanking if necessary) So would Loghain be able to replace Alistar in Calians armour (it might be warden commanders by this point in the game if it upgrade to dragonbone)?

[Jestina]

Yes, Alistair has a tantrum then goes to stare out a window and pout...all while Denerim was being attacked I guess because I never saw him in the battle.



And Loghain is great...he's another sword and board warrior/champion.

[Miri1984]

As warriors I believe they're much of a muchness. But be sure to unequip Alistair of all your good gear if you want to get rid of him.

[Bahlgan]

yogolol wrote...

So, incase you haven't finished the game this thread will have spoilers, so stop reading now if you don't want to be spoiled.

SPOILERS

When you get the option to have Loghain become a Grey Warden and join you I heard that Alistar will leave your team, I'm just wondering how good Loghain is and if he's worth it because atm Alistar is my groups tank (with Sten doing some 2h offtanking if necessary) So would Loghain be able to replace Alistar in Calians armour (it might be warden commanders by this point in the game if it upgrade to dragonbone)?

The only initial difference worth mentioning are their starting specs. While at first Alistair was a templar, Loghain was a champion. But really that's all for me.

But the real answer you should hear is: It depends on your alignment. Generally the evil choice is to side with Loghain, **generally** but not always. If you are a human noble, I can certainly see your character being evil if he/she sides with Loghain.

[Tirigon]

I won´t go into the morale discussion since that wasn´t your question.



In terms of gameplay, Alistair is better, because you can customise him much more (though that´s irrelevant IF you use respec mod). Also, Alistair has more stats than Loghain in my game.

However, I use various balancing mods and I believe this is only a bug, not planned in the game, so you may try if you get it too or not.

[MindYerBeak]

Can someone make a Slap Loghain Mod? I hate his attitude problem.

[Elhanan]

I recommend saving Loghain at least once, just in order to see more of what makes him and Anora tick.

Modifié par Elhanan, 03 juillet 2010 - 10:57 .

[Loc'n'lol]

Loghain starts with pretty high willpower and constitution, not enough strength to equip the armor he is wearing if it did have requirements, and a questionable choice of talents that could be described as 'offensive sword&shield'. All-in-all, that choice of stats may reflect how the character is portrayed story-wise, but it is very not suited to the gameplay rules.

[yogolol]

Bahlgan wrote...

yogolol wrote...

So, incase you haven't finished the game this thread will have spoilers, so stop reading now if you don't want to be spoiled.

SPOILERS

When you get the option to have Loghain become a Grey Warden and join you I heard that Alistar will leave your team, I'm just wondering how good Loghain is and if he's worth it because atm Alistar is my groups tank (with Sten doing some 2h offtanking if necessary) So would Loghain be able to replace Alistar in Calians armour (it might be warden commanders by this point in the game if it upgrade to dragonbone)?

The only initial difference worth mentioning are their starting specs. While at first Alistair was a templar, Loghain was a champion. But really that's all for me.

But the real answer you should hear is: It depends on your alignment. Generally the evil choice is to side with Loghain, **generally** but not always. If you are a human noble, I can certainly see your character being evil if he/she sides with Loghain.

Well starting specs shouldn't be a problem, i got the respec mod.

I always took it as picking Loghain would actually be the good choice because Anora begged you not to kill him and he could be a useful general against the blight and take that killing blow so you don't have to make a baby with Morrigan. While as killing him is just revenge, and I guess making him pay for his crimes but in my playthrough he was going to die either way.

[Cypher0020]

-mini spoliers maybe-



Well..... I believe there is a way to spare Loghain...and wed Alistair/Anora... so I suppose that'd be the 'happiest' endings with no one dying....

[Jestina]

I wouldn't say Loghain is evil...just obsessed with his hatred of Orlais. He didn't want their help to defend Fereldan and he felt the battle against the darkspawn would have destroyed their army so he withdrew what forces he had. He couldn't convince the King that it was foolish so what else could he have done? Some of the people under Loghain though, like Arl Howe, that's a different story.

[Abyss_666]

somehow loghain is bugged for me he always is in fighting position he always has his weapons drawn even in camp



as for gameplay differences I prefer alistair hes a better tank.Loghain is more of an offensive s&s warrior with IMO way too many points in con and will (He has 39 will on my plathrough)

[Aurelet]

By the time you get Loghain, Alistair should be able to get his second spec. You can make him a Templar/Champion

[SOLID_EVEREST]

I think Loghain is way better because Templar isn't all that beneficial (in my opinion). Since Loghain doesn't have a secondary spec, you can easily choose reaver or berserker, which are way better.

[DaPuma_9]

Cypher0020 wrote...

-mini spoliers maybe-

Well..... I believe there is a way to spare Loghain...and wed Alistair/Anora... so I suppose that'd be the 'happiest' endings with no one dying....

do you have any proof to back this up? cause if you do, please share!

[yogolol]

DaPuma_9 wrote...

Cypher0020 wrote...

-mini spoliers maybe-

Well..... I believe there is a way to spare Loghain...and wed Alistair/Anora... so I suppose that'd be the 'happiest' endings with no one dying....

do you have any proof to back this up? cause if you do, please share!

I know there is a way to get Alistair and Anora married, if you don't kill Loghain.

[Anathemic]

Eurgh, usually I have Sten as a tank, only once did I have Alistair as my tank and that was when I romanced him and became the queen or 'princess-consort' of Ferelden.



I'd keep Alistair and kill Loghain, though each time I had to endure that STUPID tantrum he did. But still I rather have Alistair because I'd been with him longer whilst Loghain was my enemy throughout the game and only near the end he is able for recruitment.



Plus in addition to dislike for Loghain, I HATE Anora. I save her ass and then I get betrayed and thrown in prison >>. Wish there was an option to kill her...

[alschemid]

yogolol wrote...

DaPuma_9 wrote...

Cypher0020 wrote...

-mini spoliers maybe-

Well..... I believe there is a way to spare Loghain...and wed Alistair/Anora... so I suppose that'd be the 'happiest' endings with no one dying....

do you have any proof to back this up? cause if you do, please share!

I know there is a way to get Alistair and Anora married, if you don't kill Loghain.

Yes I got it in my game. Played with noble female, romanced Alistair and hardened him, conviced Alistair and Anora to marry, dueled with Loghain myself and didn't kill him, and made sure Alistair married Anora with some persuasion. Everyone happy

Modifié par alschemid, 11 juillet 2010 - 12:10 .

[rayzorium]

Acharnae wrote...

Loghain wasn't really evil

Oh, he definitely was. It's easy to forget past crimes when a character repents in a video game, but remember that he did kill the king, all the Grey Wardens except for two... hell, everyone at Osthagar. Then he lied about it and tried to kill everyone who survived. These were just the first of many crimes. Just because he has reasons for mass murder doesn't make him not evil.

Also, I'm not seeing who Anora betrayed here. Did I miss a cutscene?

[Last Darkness]

You really need to read "The Stolen Throne" the Dragon Age prequel novel to get a really firm idea on Loghaine.



Loghaine was not "Evil" we have too many people discussing this here with too many opinions on "Evil" its entirely subjective. He was doing what he belived to be right and best for his people. Dragon Age has a habit of making the player personaly prejudiced against certain people aginst their better judgement. Example is if your dwarf noble you want to see Bhelen pay but you dont stop to think it through and discover that the best result for the dwarf people as a whole is Bhelen as King and Harrowmont is the worst choice you can make for their leadership.



Loghaine is almost instantly redeemable once he undergoes the Ritual and becomes a Grey Warden. He learns the truth that you as the Warden have known all along about the darkspawn, the archedemon what it takes to kill a archdemon. Take Loghaine with you too Return to ostagar and the final siege of denerim and you will get some excellent insights. Also Having Anora rule and keeping Loghaine alive is the best possible scenario for the country of Ferelden. Alistair is no leader or general. He will just be a Puppet king if you place him on the Throne.



Try and think it through without personal prejudice for whats best for the WHOLE.

[rayzorium]

I suppose "evil" is a very subjective word, but so is morality in general. In either case, simply believing what you're doing is right doesn't make committed atrocities any less terrible (nor do past good deeds, for that matter). Part of me wanted to end this post right here, but you make some very good points that it would be unfair not to address. Most importantly, the often very necessary choice between justice and the greater good.

By the Landsmeet, Loghain *deserves* to die. Can we agree on that? Even though he believes what he does is right, he has crippled Ferelden. It could have stood united against the Blight, with the Grey Wardens intact and in good standing with the King, but is instead fractured with civil war. At least two hundred more Grey Wardens would have been welcomed in from Orlais to aid in the battle and the Blight might have been stopped dead in its tracks before thousands of lives were needlessly lost. Instead, all of Ferelden was nearly destroyed - the only reason it wasn't was because Loghain was just two Grey Wardens short of rendering the Archdemon completely unkillable. This is much more than a matter of "personal prejudice."

Having played through the game, we know that Loghain wasn't necessary to slay the Archdemon. But we did not know it at the time of the Landsmeet. Now, Loghain has a very impressive military history - someone like that would surely be more useful alive than dead. We're fighting for our lives, right? Should all past mistakes be forgiven simply because he might be useful in the future?

From what I can gather, it actually doesn't seem like a choice at all to you - the greater good wins out every time. Is that right? And if not every time, where would you draw the line? Let's say a skilled surgeon is charged with several counts of murder, and is clearly guilty. And for the sake of the argument, let's say that we know he won't kill again, and would go on saving lives if set free. Would you acquit him if you were on the jury and the decision came down to you?

Just curious.

Modifié par rayzorium, 12 juillet 2010 - 12:38 .

[Last Darkness]

rayzorium wrote...

I suppose "evil" is a very subjective word, but so is morality in general. In either case, simply believing what you're doing is right doesn't make committed atrocities any less terrible (nor do past good deeds, for that matter). Part of me wanted to end this post right here, but you make some very good points that it would be unfair not to address. Most importantly, the often very necessary choice between justice and the greater good.

By the Landsmeet, Loghain *deserves* to die. Can we agree on that? Even though he believes what he does is right, he has crippled Ferelden. It could have stood united against the Blight, with the Grey Wardens intact and in good standing with the King, but is instead fractured with civil war. At least two hundred more Grey Wardens would have been welcomed in from Orlais to aid in the battle and the Blight might have been stopped dead in its tracks before thousands of lives were needlessly lost. Instead, all of Ferelden was nearly destroyed - the only reason it wasn't was because Loghain was just two Grey Wardens short of rendering the Archdemon completely unkillable. This is much more than a matter of "personal prejudice."

Having played through the game, we know that Loghain wasn't necessary to slay the Archdemon. But we did not know it at the time of the Landsmeet. Now, Loghain has a very impressive military history - someone like that would surely be more useful alive than dead. We're fighting for our lives, right? Should all past mistakes be forgiven simply because he might be useful in the future?

From what I can gather, it actually doesn't seem like a choice at all to you - the greater good wins out every time. Is that right? And if not every time, where would you draw the line? Let's say a skilled surgeon is charged with several counts of murder, and is clearly guilty. And for the sake of the argument, let's say that we know he won't kill again, and would go on saving lives if set free. Would you acquit him if you were on the jury and the decision came down to you?

Just curious.

Ill answer this, the problem also lies in what Justice are you talking about? Gods Justice? Mans Justice? The Devils Justice?  Frontier Justice? I could go on.

You dont make a very good argument because its still being from your point of view. Lets Switch Loghaine out and put in say .... Winston Churchhill or Patton?  Would you kill those guys because a man in your unit died because of a deicion they made? Its all subjective.   Both of those guys are Murderers, but most regard them as heroes.

As for the Doctor, explain to the family and loved ones of  the people who died why they had to watch their loved one die because the person who could save their life was behind bars or executed.
Would you deny a man redemption and salvation?
Its not black and white, dont try and put it as such. Theres no such thing as black or white in the world its all shades of Grey.
*EDIT*
Forgot to add
Of course all other info aside, Bioware is quite unfair  for the exact results of forgiving Loghaine. Does Alistair deserve to die or be exiled(Actuay I would think he would like exile) or Loghaine to be murdered in front of the ruling body of ferelden and right in front of his daughters eyes. My personal opinion is that Alistair is wroung and like many people had a idea Grey Wardens were something more noble, unfortunetly they are not called White Wardens. Look at Duncan he is the ideal figure of a grey warden. Not doing what is right, but doing what needs to be done for the good of all.  Making Loghaine a Warden IS a Death Sentance, first he has to pass the joining, second he has to fight darkspawn however and whereever, third he dies after 30 years if he survive that long. Loghaine if you ever try to "Redeem" him is actualy very much redeemable.

Also funny thing I just fineshed watching a episode of Babylon 5 where it deals with this similar subject.
Ok, we have Brother Edward a right and good man who does his best to help others.
Turns out hes "The Black Rose" Killer and as punishment they wipe out his memories and what made him do such things and sentenced him to serve others for the rest of his life. Hes a good, decent , caring man.
Hes hunted down by family of the people he killed and tortured and killed as "Justice" and the people who did it are then sentenced to the same mind wipe and servitude to others the rest of their life.
Very insightful.

Modifié par Last Darkness, 12 juillet 2010 - 05:28 .

[rayzorium]

I guess I mean Man's Justice. If you take a life in cold blood, you deserve you lose your own - It's a concept as old as life itself, and one that's difficult to argue against at its core. I don't think Loghain should be compared with Churchill, though. It may have been a valid comparison when he *was* a hero in the war against Orlais, but that was thrown out the window at Osthagar. I'm pretty sure Churchill never assassinated the former prime minister to take his position and then blame the death on, say, Douglas Bader's unit. The comparison just isn't realistic.



Before I say anything else, though, I want to apologize - truth be told, I initially chose to spare Loghain, and I've *sort of* been playing devil's advocate in this discussion. I don't quite share your views, but I'm much more moderate than I've been letting on. The surgeon example was really contrived too; sorry about that as well. I'm really surprised you didn't call me out on it, actually, so I guess I'm calling myself out.



Anyway, regarding Loghain, it was as I said - he had a very impressive military history, and even a fool could see that he would be invaluable as a Warden in the upcoming battles. Listening to Alistair rant about how Loghain needed to die left a bad taste in my mouth. Still, it wasn't an easy decision to make. Loghain's actions really were despicable, but I see what you mean by personal prejudice now. Regardless, in the end, I chose to kill him because Alistair was going to leave if I didn't, and I hadn't been getting equipment for any other characters outside of my main four. >_>



You made a very strong point, though, at least to me, and I'm not sure if you even meant to in this particular case. If Duncan were at the Landsmeet, he would have inducted Loghain into the Wardens in a heartbeat, which is more than good enough in my eyes.



I guess my primary reason for arguing is that I'm not very willing to accept shades of grey. I don't like the idea of a necessary evil - if it's necessary, it can't be evil, and I have a lot of trouble reconciling if it doesn't work out easily. I could probably save myself a lot of stress if I just went along with it, though...