68 réponses à ce sujet

[DWSmiley]

DragonRacer13 wrote...

But it would be interesting to know how many folks who do execute Loghain would actually NOT do so and show him the same mercy they showed towards Sten and Zevran if Alistair said nothing at all during that sequence? I've a feeling that there are at least a handful that would consider Riordin's suggestion if Alistair wouldn't yell at them and leave the party because of that decision (but then again, that's the entire reason why, for some, it's a gut-wrenching decision... the consequences are not 100% awesome for either side of the decision unless you just flat-out love lobbing off Loghain's head).

My first play-through, when I had no foreknowledge, I intended to kill Loghain.  But when I heard Riordan's and Anora's arguments I had to agree with them.  I expected a big disapproval from Alistair but I never imagined he would desert.  That was a shocker.  It depends on your pc, too.  For instance, I can't see a city elf letting Loghain live, no matter what.

[NorDee65]

DragonRacer13 wrote

Maybe my memory is rusty, but I'm pretty sure Loghain doesn't actually believe the darkspawn raids are a full-on Blight. The only real way to know it's a Blight is to either be a Grey Warden and have Scary Archdemon Nightmares or to trust the Grey Wardens when they say, "Uh, yeah, it's a Blight, dude." Loghain doesn't trust the Grey Wardens and feels there's too much legend and myth piled on them, so I honestly don't think that he believes it's a Blight. He doesn't realize he's wrong until you finally smack him upside the head (literally) at the Landsmeet duel. And then, obviously, he'd realize even further that he'd been wrong if you make him a Grey Warden and he then starts sharing in the Scary Archdemon Nightmares.

Actually, Loghain is a bit of a tragic figure:
in the "stolen throne" , he and Marric were given a prophecy by Flemeth (I think): there will be a blight and Loghain will betray Marric.
Since Loghain would never admit to himself of having betrayed Marric (by allowing Cailan to be slaughtered), the blight is no more than a "Darkspawn incursion". All else follows his dillusion: no blight, no need for grey wardens (who happen to be mostly "foreigners", i.e. Orlesians). He actually believes it is one more ploy by the Orlesians to return to Ferelden as conquerors. Of course he is wrong. (On the hand we'll never know, maybe they would have helped end the blight, but afterwards...)
As to choosing Loghain or Alistair: I don't think stats matter that much. It's more of a personal choice and I think as a human noble and a city elf, Loghain is a soon to be corpse, as a dwarf or a dalish elf I could care less. It might also depend an other, ahem personal choices...

[DevilShootsDevil]

I actually played as a city elf and on my second playthrough I gave Loghain a second chance despite his actions. What a shock it was for me that Alistar actually ditched me!!! Not because I loved his whining (although my rogue was not evil per se, I did a lot of bad things to please Morrigan, etc.), but because the motherf*cker stole my best armor/weapons I had equipped on him!! Loghain is a actually a cool character though, definitely interesting to hear his side of the story and his hatred for Orlesians.

[Giggles_Manically]

I was iffy on Loghain the first time I spared him right up until the archdemon.



"Please I have done so much wrong, allow me to do one last thing right."



In that scene Loghain finnaly saw the light, and wanted to save the country he loved from dying, from his own paranoia and mistakes. All while Alistair is having a pretty-boy moment while the whole country he is supposed to be ruling is fighting for its life. Or he is running away and forgetting his sacred duty.

[Ripper Ironwill]

Im not sure I agree with the pretty-boy thing. Altho he surely is looking like a pretty boy, maybe out of comercial reasons, but for me, at this point in the game, Alistair is a hardened veteran fighter, with many ugly scars and wounds, that is used to live by the sword.



He is not having a pretty-boy moment. Its all about the motivation that drives him. He is not motivated by that sacred duty bla-bla. I tend to imagine him driven by revenge against those that took away the closest thing to family he had got - Duncan.



In time he grows beeing part of your family, he belongs to you, and when you took the decision to spare Loghains life, you turn your back on him and also you take away his chance for revenge. The very two things that motivates Alistair to live and fight. Imo, to some extent, chosing Loghain versus Alistair is like killing Alistair, even if you dont let the queen execute him. His auto-imposed exile, alone, betrayed from his friends and with nobody to trust anymore, is really a death sentence.



This tantrum could be exploited somehow, making Alistair the new nemesis in some future adventures.

[DWSmiley]

DevilShootsDevil wrote...

I actually played as a city elf and on my second playthrough I gave Loghain a second chance despite his actions.

You are much more forgiving than my city elves.  The guy sold my relatives, friends and neighbours into slavery -  men, women and children.  And then had the gall to try to defend his actions at the Landsmeet while criticizing me for killing Howe.  Only blood could pay that debt.

[GwaR9292]

yogolol wrote...

DaPuma_9 wrote...

Cypher0020 wrote...

-mini spoliers maybe-

Well..... I believe there is a way to spare Loghain...and wed Alistair/Anora... so I suppose that'd be the 'happiest' endings with no one dying....

do you have any proof to back this up? cause if you do, please share!

I know there is a way to get Alistair and Anora married, if you don't kill Loghain.

if you"harden" alistair and makes him marry Anora, you can spare Loghain and Alistair leavs the party but he will be king everyone lives

[BootOnFace]

NorDee65 wrote...

DragonRacer13 wrote

snip

Actually, Loghain is a bit of a tragic figure:
in the "stolen throne" , he and Marric were given a prophecy by Flemeth (I think): there will be a blight and Loghain will betray Marric.
Since Loghain would never admit to himself of having betrayed Marric (by allowing Cailan to be slaughtered), the blight is no more than a "Darkspawn incursion". All else follows his dillusion: no blight, no need for grey wardens (who happen to be mostly "foreigners", i.e. Orlesians). He actually believes it is one more ploy by the Orlesians to return to Ferelden as conquerors. Of course he is wrong. (On the hand we'll never know, maybe they would have helped end the blight, but afterwards...)
As to choosing Loghain or Alistair: I don't think stats matter that much. It's more of a personal choice and I think as a human noble and a city elf, Loghain is a soon to be corpse, as a dwarf or a dalish elf I could care less. It might also depend an other, ahem personal choices...

I recently played  a game as a shining knight human noble who spared Loghain because he was his hero. Alistair was his friend and all, but Ostagar was unwinnable; even the supposedly safe Tower of Ishal was overrun.  Even before Loghain was supposed to charge, they had already gotten their army behind enemy lines! Loghain even had a good reason for distrusting the Grey Wardens; all those usurping and kidnapping attempts tend to spoil a good reputation. He associated with Arl Howe, but I associated with Zevran and Sten and Bhelen and even a blood mage. My character wasn't even in the Grey Wardens out of choice. He would have stayed to defend his father to the death. But everything turned out well in the end: he became King-Consort and Teyrn of Gwaren, Loghain got redeemed, Rendon Howe was killed and his land given to the Wardens, Pelthis even got to go to Par Vollen as a representative of Ferelden(that's just me, I agreed to go with Sten at the end). As a ruler, my character thought Loghain completely justified, just misinformed and irresponsible. Even the propaganda. Rulers need to lie sometimes to keep the peace.

[xXxSorenxXx]

allistair is what made dragon age so great for me.. he's hilarious and much better than loghain in my opinion, though i'm currently doing a play-through in which i plan to replace allistair with loghain.. only cuz i've never done it before. and i must say, it hurts quite a bit

[JHByrne]

Loghain -vs- Alistair.



Two considerations. One, as a gameplay issue, two, as a plot issue.



As a gameplay issue, I recommend Al. You have more time to steer his development. A high level Al, w/ Templar and Champion, beats Log...

1) his 'liking' for you is probably high at that point, 80+, which translates into a better stat boost (in Al's case, higher CON, possibly a 'massive' boost to CON). Log starts out at 50 (neutral) towards you, which means, no Stat boost.

2) Some people say that a Templar is 'no good'. They're wrong. A Templar's Holy Smite is actually better than a Champion's Improved Warcry, as it actually does spirit damage as well as knockdown.

3) If you beat Log with Alistair in the dual, it pretty much proves my point.



As a plot issue:



Sure, Al is a whiny, indecisive little crybaby. But, he's good in a fight. Better than Sten/Oghren. He can do nearly as much damage, has better defense, and is easier to direct. Yes, he has his issues... but so do Og and Sten. Just... learn to subvert them. Sten is a surly, humorless, inflexible guy w/ a big sword. Og is a drunken lecher. I can deal w/ Al easily enough.



As a character issue... Al is a LOT easier to deal w/ than Loghain, who is so self-assured that he will do anything to get what he wants. Not a shred of ethics in him. Al himself points this out, when he says that the problem w/ both Loghain and Anora is that they think they are the only ones capable of 'saving' Ferelden.



Some people say, well, Loghain is this great general, and he can redeem himself, and he would be so practically useful, etc, etc.



Have they fully considered Loghain, as a character? Sure, we may all get around his ethical issues... most of them. For instance, we recruit 'Sten', an admitted homicide and probable Qunari spy, on the notion that he can 'atone' for what he has done.

But... despite what some people might suggest... Loghain is NOT a good general or leader. Even if you can get around the idea of his acts being 'evil', they're just stupid and short-sighted... because Loghain cannot get past his personal issues. By definition, a 'professional' who lets his personal animosities or desires get in the way of professional decisions is NOT qualified.



Log abandons Cailan... and the entire professional Army of Ferelden... because he has doubts about Cailan's leadership decisions. Hmm.... doom 10,000 soldiers to death b/c he, Loghain has doubts about one man? Deprive Ferelden of its defense, and thereby doom all of South Ferelden to being overrun by invaders? That's not good generalship... that's treason.



Antagonize all of the Banns, by taxation and repression, because they won't support his claim to the regency? That's pretty poor political skill. Even BEFORE the Warden has any impact on events, Loghain has already fomented a civil war. Again, that's treason, and lousy political skills.



Encourage Howe to expand, at cost of House Cousland and the Arldom of Denerim? It's irresponsible at best to allow Howe any latitude, especially when it is apparent that Howe is a criminal, torturer, etc. A regent's job, Loghain's job, was to make the best decisions for the kingdom. He failed by allowing Howe to run wild.



Encourage slavery in the Alienage... is this a leader's decision? Hardly. Even if you get around the ethical issues, it is poor policy to allow some of your citizens to be enslaved, and allow a foreign power (the Imperials) to buy them. How could a leader be any more stupid?



So... Loghain a great leader and general? Hardly.



The very best political response is to make an example, a very public and bloody example of him. The BEST response is to have Alistair apply the killing blow... thus making his own kingship legitimate (as any student of history knows, a king must sometimes get his hands dirty... if he cannot or will not, he is not fit to be king).

It is NOT a happy ending to spare Log and marry Anora. Anora, who stood by and allowed Log to dominate her. If she is such a 'good queen', afterall, how did this happen? Her only 'power' is summed up in her treachery... she does it twice! How is she then qualified to be sole queen, or dominant leader with Alistair as consort?

Besides... she's barren (Return to Ostagar notes from Arl Eamon). What good is she? She's a poor ruler, who can't give a good succession. Even if she could marry Alistair (who is also mostly sterile), it dooms Ferelden to a civil war in about 30 years (when she and Alistair die).



So, best result, politically? Alistair as temporary 'king', Warden as chancellor... and encourage someone like Bann Teagan to become King, eventually.

[LobselVith8]

JHByrne wrote...

So... Loghain a great leader and general? Hardly.

The very best political response is to make an example, a very public and bloody example of him. The BEST response is to have Alistair apply the killing blow... thus making his own kingship legitimate (as any student of history knows, a king must sometimes get his hands dirty... if he cannot or will not, he is not fit to be king).
It is NOT a happy ending to spare Log and marry Anora. Anora, who stood by and allowed Log to dominate her. If she is such a 'good queen', afterall, how did this happen? Her only 'power' is summed up in her treachery... she does it twice! How is she then qualified to be sole queen, or dominant leader with Alistair as consort?
Besides... she's barren (Return to Ostagar notes from Arl Eamon). What good is she? She's a poor ruler, who can't give a good succession. Even if she could marry Alistair (who is also mostly sterile), it dooms Ferelden to a civil war in about 30 years (when she and Alistair die).

So, best result, politically? Alistair as temporary 'king', Warden as chancellor... and encourage someone like Bann Teagan to become King, eventually.

Anora isn't perfect, but she isn't evil, she's simply hindered by the fact that she's a woman in a sexist society and her father is a beloved hero. Considering that Alistair becomes an effective King if hardened (especially for the Dalish and the elves of the alienage) and Anora seeks to build a university and restore Ferelden financially, wouldn't the best option be for them to get married? As for the claim that Anora is barren, that was Arl Eamon's notion, and none of Cailan's mistresses got pregnant, so more likely the problem was with him. With Eamon as Chancellor and two effective rulers leading Ferelden, I see it as the best option.

[Lord Coake]

DWSmiley wrote...

DevilShootsDevil wrote...

I actually played as a city elf and on my second playthrough I gave Loghain a second chance despite his actions.

You are much more forgiving than my city elves.  The guy sold my relatives, friends and neighbours into slavery -  men, women and children.  And then had the gall to try to defend his actions at the Landsmeet while criticizing me for killing Howe.  Only blood could pay that debt.

Oh, gods this.

Once the fight started Kallian popped Bloodthirst and Momentum and hit Loghain like an avalanche.  Mercy?  I think not.  Would he have shown any for the elves begging not to be sold to Tevinter blood mages?

He doesn't get redemption.  He gets gutted in front maker and everyone.

After everything that happens to CE's in game, the PC still chokes it all down, builds a predominately human force, and leads it into battle for Ferelden.  All that perfectly understandable hatred and rage got locked up tight in favor of doing a Gray Warden's duty.

I can just imagine Loghain's face (and that of everyone elses' including the Companions) whan all that finally gets unleashed on a man that personally responsible for a good amount of the pain and misery Kallian and her people have been through in the past months.  By that point, the only ones that are likely to have any inkling of the her "dark side" are Allistair, since he's been there since the beginning, and whoever Kallian is in a romance with (if any).  Poor Lil is likely pretty shocked.

Die Loghain, DIE

Modifié par Lord Coake, 06 août 2010 - 05:08 .

[killermadman]

Ayanu wrote...

As far as abandoning the King, he knew at that point that even if his men joined the battle, they would all die along with the King and the grey wardens, they simply did not have enough men there to stop that many darkspawn. As a strategist he made his decision based on what would be the best route for actually defeating the darkspawn and attempting to save Fereldan rather than have more people die in battle.

While it is true that the situation presented itself partially because of Loghaines hatred of Orlais, you can't really blame him for his feelings torwards that country. Having his country controlled by them for so long and having only recently having secured freedom for his country (he still spent half his life living under Orlesian rule) it is pretty normal to distrust them and hae a very deep hatred for them and not wanting them back in your land.

But Cailin is also partially responsible for what happened. He did not take the threat seriously enough, and would not even wait for reinforcements from redcliffe from his uncle. He was more obsessed with glory than with protecting his people.

As far as my feelings of Loghaine, I don't personally like him but I don't view him as "evil" because I don't sense any malice in his actions, at his core he really is just trying to protect his people, but I still dislike his choices and how he goes about trying to do that.

Funny I am pretty sure it was Loghain who planned and explained the battle to Cailan and no one looked surprised by the size of the darkspawn horde they faced (well there was that one guy but he fell in line).  Remember no one but the wardens were convinced it was a blight.

Loghain's troops were meant to flank the darkspawn that was their job they were necessary to win the battle plain and simple.  The king died and everything went to crap because he quit the field not because he retreated in the face of overwhelming odds.  This is made abundantly clear it isn't just being thrown out there.

Loghain planned a battle strategy designed to fail without his support to spite Cailan and the grey wardens.  As if to say what good are your wardens now Cailan when *I* abandon you.  Lets no play games Loghain thought Cailan acted like a fool and he treated him like one.  Yes, his ego is that big something that is also made abundantly clear if you watch and listen to everything he says.

As soon as you knock him down off his high horse he's ready to listen to reason, but that doesn't change the fact he *was* an arogant ass who betrayed his king to usurp the throne.

You could call it opinion but when you have supporting evidence to back it up it sort of becomes a fact.

my two cents

Oh and if he wasn't betraying the king he would have rallied there forces and advised a retreat ensuring the king and as many of their forces as possible made it to safety whether the beacon was lit or not.  Loghain's no rookie he left when his men where needed the most and when it would do the most damage.

Modifié par killermadman, 06 août 2010 - 07:55 .

[TJPags]

killermadman wrote...

Ayanu wrote...

As far as abandoning the King, he knew at that point that even if his men joined the battle, they would all die along with the King and the grey wardens, they simply did not have enough men there to stop that many darkspawn. As a strategist he made his decision based on what would be the best route for actually defeating the darkspawn and attempting to save Fereldan rather than have more people die in battle.

While it is true that the situation presented itself partially because of Loghaines hatred of Orlais, you can't really blame him for his feelings torwards that country. Having his country controlled by them for so long and having only recently having secured freedom for his country (he still spent half his life living under Orlesian rule) it is pretty normal to distrust them and hae a very deep hatred for them and not wanting them back in your land.

But Cailin is also partially responsible for what happened. He did not take the threat seriously enough, and would not even wait for reinforcements from redcliffe from his uncle. He was more obsessed with glory than with protecting his people.

As far as my feelings of Loghaine, I don't personally like him but I don't view him as "evil" because I don't sense any malice in his actions, at his core he really is just trying to protect his people, but I still dislike his choices and how he goes about trying to do that.

Funny I am pretty sure it was Loghain who planned and explained the battle to Cailan and no one looked surprised by the size of the darkspawn horde they faced (well there was that one guy but he fell in line).  Remember no one but the wardens were convinced it was a blight.

Loghain's troops were meant to flank the darkspawn that was their job they were necessary to win the battle plain and simple.  The king died and everything went to crap because he quit the field not because he retreated in the face of overwhelming odds.  This is made abundantly clear it isn't just being thrown out there.

Loghain planned a battle strategy designed to fail without his support to spite Cailan and the grey wardens.  As if to say what good are your wardens now Cailan when *I* abandon you.  Lets no play games Loghain thought Cailan acted like a fool and he treated him like one.  Yes, his ego is that big something that is also made abundantly clear if you watch and listen to everything he says.

As soon as you knock him down off his high horse he's ready to listen to reason, but that doesn't change the fact he *was* an arogant ass who betrayed his king to usurp the throne.

You could call it opinion but when you have supporting evidence to back it up it sort of becomes a fact.

my two cents

Oh and if he wasn't betraying the king he would have rallied there forces and advised a retreat ensuring the king and as many of their forces as possible made it to safety whether the beacon was lit or not.  Loghain's no rookie he left when his men where needed the most and when it would do the most damage.

Clearly, you haven't read "The Stolen Throne".

Loghain is a tragic, misunderstood figure.  So what if he let his king die, so what if he lied about what happened, so what if he started a civil war, so what if he heaped honors on a man who slaughtered an entire castle, imprisoned and killed nobles (all to further his own selfish advancement), and so what if he sold elves into slavery?  

He's a past hero of Ferelden.  He was doing what he thought was right, even if it DID nearly lead to the country being overun by a blight . . eerrrr, darkspawn incursion.
He was prevented an Orlesian invasion!!!!!!

How dare you judge him???

<end sarcasm>

[killermadman]

Ok... loving the sarcasm but out of curiosity does "The Stolen Throne" a prequel to dao touch on Loghain's overinflated ego that is pretty much directly responsible for his actions in origins?

Don't get me wrong its a serious question I see people reference the novel and from the synaposis on the web it doesn't seem relevant to his actions in origins.

He can be as paranoid about the Orlesians as he wants, but at the end of the day it was his ego i.e. I am the only one who can save Fereldan (from the Orlesians, Cailan's inexperience, itself, fill in the blank he's trying to rationalize his actions) that created the problem.

Modifié par killermadman, 07 août 2010 - 06:44 .

[ArawnNox]

killermadman wrote...

Ok... loving the sarcasm but out of curiosity does "The Stolen Throne" a prequel to dao touch on Loghain's overinflated ego that is pretty much directly responsible for his actions in origins?

Don't get me wrong its a serious question I see people reference the novel and from the synaposis on the web it doesn't seem relevant to his actions in origins.

He can be as paranoid about the Orlesians as he wants, but at the end of the day it was his ego i.e. I am the only one who can save Fereldan (from the Orlesians, Cailan's inexperience, itself, fill in the blank he's trying to rationalize his actions) that created the problem.

You get a better insight into what made Loghain who he is. In no way does it really justify what he does later in life. I wouldn't call what he does in DA:O to be ego-driven. More like, he saw, first hand, the worst of the Orlesian Occupation (and it was something akin to the worst of the French Revolution's Time of Terror) and it affected him so hard that he'd do anything to keep it from happening again.

[MaxTheReaper]

killermadman wrote...


Funny I am pretty sure it was Loghain who planned and explained the battle to Cailan and no one looked surprised by the size of the darkspawn horde they faced (well there was that one guy but he fell in line).

Loghain somehow managed to hide his troops from the Darkspawn. Is there any rule saying they couldn't have done the same?

Remember no one but the wardens were convinced it was a blight.

Which does rather make his actions a bit more justifiable.

Loghain's troops were meant to flank the darkspawn that was their job they were necessary to win the battle plain and simple.  The king died and everything went to crap because he quit the field not because he retreated in the face of overwhelming odds.  This is made abundantly clear it isn't just being thrown out there.

Is it, though? Do remember that the beacon was supposed to be lit long before you ever got to the top of the tower. And the scene directly after Loghain sounds the retreat shows a disorganized mess of a battle, with Duncan and the king losing rather soundly. How quickly could he have gotten there? Probably not fast enough to save them. 

Loghain planned a battle strategy designed to fail without his support to spite Cailan and the grey wardens.  As if to say what good are your wardens now Cailan when *I* abandon you. 

Most battle strategies do, indeed, rely upon all of the parties involved acting as they are supposed to.

Lets no play games Loghain thought Cailan acted like a fool and he treated him like one.  Yes, his ego is that big something that is also made abundantly clear if you watch and listen to everything he says.

While I'm not denying that Loghain has an ego problem, treating Cailan like a fool isn't the cause.
The cause is that Cailan is, simply, a fool. Hell, even Alistair thinks so.

As soon as you knock him down off his high horse he's ready to listen to reason, but that doesn't change the fact he *was* an arogant ass who betrayed his king to usurp the throne.

His incompetent king. That's very important. But yes, he is a paranoid old man. The fact that he's willing to listen to reason after you prove his paranoia wrong is not really a mark against him. 
That he was so paranoid in the first place, however, is.

Lord Coake wrote...
...a willingness to not only disobey direct orders, but leave his king yo die...
...a goddamed minor noble, not the King himself.
...his job is to adivse the king, then shut the hell up and do as he's told, wheather or not he agrees.
The right option...
et cetera

I'm...not sure how accurately a Lawful Good perspective can be applied to a game that is, by its very design, intended to showcase a morally gray world. 
Your entire argument seems to be that Loghain is wrong for attempting to think his way through his problems, rather than blindly following orders, which you appear to be championing. 
Part of the appeal of the game is that there is no "right option," and if there were, committing his soldiers to a suicidal charge because he was ordered to do so would not be it regardless.
At best, it's a waste of resources. At worst, you could argue that it's actually morally worse than leaving his king to die. 

This wall of text brought to you by someone who's killed Loghain every single time.
Because it's fun. 

[kaniwynplz]

I think, having studied the game recently, that loghain should not have been executed. Because, the tower was not lit in time because it was captured by the darkspawn after it was controlled by cailin's forces.. Also, it was made clear that loghain and maric were indeed friends. Cailin was not a fool though, he was simply a good king. It is true that Loghain did not take Duncin seriously enough and who would? Those dreams would probably be more from the poison that they injested and the nearness to its source or maybe snakes were crawling over them while they camped. However, i have not found a way to slap alistair into doing the right thing with loghain still alive but possibly removed from duty . it is clear that alistair is being monitored because of his inheritance but Connor would be the closest real heir. too bad he is also not fit. in the end, how stupid do you have to be to be king, not have any children to inherit the thrown and go off to fight in battles with diseased darkspawn? My first game ended with alistair as king, anora in the tower, loghain dead, morrigan pissed somewhere alone in the woods, connor's mother comitting suicide and only sten, oghren and lilianna in the group. no dog, no witch, no old woman. thats what you get when you listen to alistair.  oh, and me, his first girlfriend  dead of course. 

[SirJarenTor]

In the novels, Flemeth tells Maric that if he keeps Loghain close, he will betray him again and again, each time worse than the last. He even starts doing it in the novels.



He deceives Maric into murdering the Bard.

He goads Rowan into going back to Maric despite her and Loghain being in love, because Loghain believes he knows best (and criminally, Rowan believes him).

He declares Grey Wardens Regicides and places a bounty on them after Maric specifically allows them to return to Fereldan because he sees first hand, a Blight is coming. He even refuses to truly believe the Warden's are guiltless in the Orlesian plot (led by yet another rogue mage in the tower) in The Calling.

He leaves Maric's only son, and the largest part of his army, to die.

He plunges Fereldan into civil war by his (what should have been unnecessary ) claim to Regency (what, he can't get his daughter to help without usurping her claim to the throne?)

He spends more blood and treasure fighting the Banns than the Blight.



Loghain is first, and foremost, guilty of being a fool.



That people here have claimed that the Signal Fire was instrumental in making Loghain's plan work to flank the darkspawn is preposterous. He concocted that plan to fail, and Cailan, trusting as much in Loghain's legend (and loyalty) as that of the Grey Wardens, assumes it will work. Loghain had scouts (something any competent general would do, and he had done in the novels), and his vantage point in the battle was such that he didn't need to see the signal fire to know when to attack.



I find it ironic that when Cailan was in some ways, very much, like Maric, Loghain manages to forget how he very nearly murdered or abandoned him a half dozen times before he ever earned a commission in the rebel army, for some of the very same qualities. Loghain seems to forget that it was need and circumstance that helped forge Maric into a good king (and not his meddling).



One of the failings though, that I think is the most dire, was Duncan. Duncan knew the score, he knew Loghain, he knew Cailan, he knew Maric. If, at any point, he had taken the two of them aside and told them exactly how the Wardens' powers work, he might have staved off all of it. It still might not have been enough to curb Loghain's crazy that late in the game, but it might have made Cailan more cautious, and that alone would have kept Loghain's paranoia at bay.