82 réponses à ce sujet

[Schneidend]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

(due to the combination of the voiced-PC and the dialogue wheel)

I...wait...what?

So, choosing dialogue options makes it not an RPG? Better inform all the fans of Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, and Knights of the Old Republic that they'be been living a lie.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

No. I disagree. What I meant is that all videogame roleplaying games (at least most of the Western ones) are based on the illusion of choice, scripted sequences that involves gameplay mechanics. Like KitsuneRommel said, none offers real freedom that could offer a real roleplaying experience.

See my response to KitsuneRommel.

"Those games give you total freedom to decide why you do the things you
do.  How you feel about the things that happen to you."

Really? Total freedom?

"Let's look at KotOR.  For your character's point of view, why is he on
the Endar Spire at the beginning of the game?  How does he feel about
Trask?  Or Carth?  Does he panic when the ship is attacked, or does he
keep his cool?"
What if I wanted to remain alone myself? Or what if I wanted to shot Canderous in the head as soon as I met him? What if I could say to Bastilla I felt atracted by her instead of the cheesy flirting or the boring talk about their "bond"? What if, what if. Limited freedom is no freedom at all.

Modifié par RyuGuitarFreak, 05 juillet 2010 - 02:14 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

KitsuneRommel wrote...

I just don't understand how you feel ME2 doesn't allow for it. I've played a knight in shining armor type of Shepard, a pragmatic Shepard, an extremely pro-human Shepard, a cruel Shepard and whatever it takes Shepard.

Sure, I can define Shepard in really broad strokes like that, but a person is a lot more complicated than a caricature or archetype.

It's the moment-to-moment decisions in conversations that are prevented by ME's dialogue system.

Schneidend wrote...

So, choosing dialogue options makes it not an RPG?

That's clearly not what I said.

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

Really? Total freedom?

What if I wanted to remain alone myself? Or what if I wanted to shot Canderous in the head as soon as I met him? What if I could say to Bastilla I felt atracted by her instead of the cheesy flirting or the boring talk about their "bond"? What if, what if. Limited freedom is no freedom at all.

I didn't say you had total freedom to do whatever you wanted.  I said you had total freedom to decide why your character did the things he did.  You had absolute power to determine your character's motives.  Of course you don't have total control over his actions or words, because the game doesn't allow that.  You don't even have total control over your characters actions in a tabletop game, because the DM hasn't fleshed out the entire world.  If you completely ignore the plot hook and head into the desert, he'll probably just kick you out of the group rather than accommodate you.  But if you follow the plot hook, you have total freedom to determine why you did that.

But not in Mass Effect.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 05 juillet 2010 - 02:26 .

[Whatever Works]

Word?

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

KitsuneRommel wrote...

I just don't understand how you feel ME2 doesn't allow for it. I've played a knight in shining armor type of Shepard, a pragmatic Shepard, an extremely pro-human Shepard, a cruel Shepard and whatever it takes Shepard.

Sure, I can define Shepard in really broad strokes like that, but a person is a lot more complicated than a caricature or archetype.

It's the moment-to-moment decisions in conversations that are prevented by ME's dialogue system.

Schneidend wrote...

So, choosing dialogue options makes it not an RPG?

That's clearly not what I said.

RyuGuitarFreak wrote...

Really? Total freedom?

What if I wanted to remain alone myself? Or what if I wanted to shot Canderous in the head as soon as I met him? What if I could say to Bastilla I felt atracted by her instead of the cheesy flirting or the boring talk about their "bond"? What if, what if. Limited freedom is no freedom at all.

I didn't say you had total freedom to do whatever you wanted.  I said you had total freedom to decide why your character did the things he did.  You had absolute power to determine your character's motives.  Of course you don't have total control over his actions or words, because the game doesn't allow that.  You don't even have total control over your characters actions in a tabletop game, because the DM hasn't fleshed out the entire world.  If you completely ignore the plot hook and head into the desert, he'll probably just kick you out of the group rather than accommodate you.  But if you follow the plot hook, you have total freedom to determine why you did that.

But not in Mass Effect.

But this actually has nothing to do with my point. From what I understand in your point (I really didn't get the relationship with backstory, Mass Effect is more limited on the roleplay therefore there is none? WTF? ME dialogue/choice system is divided into a morality system by most part, so there are choices about 2 paths and a neutral. KOTOR were mostly into this way (light/dark side), but there were usually more choices on the dialogue.
I couldn't care less about how Shepard says a line, actually I could if the voice acting was bad, but I love it. Actually, if I could chose, mute protagonists would be extinct.
And by my point no, you don't have absolute power to determine your characters motives, you'd have to free determine it by the lines and writing specific by the game. So, you have freedom to chose by the game's script, you're stuck with what the game shows you. Therefore, an illusionary freedom. No actual freedom.

[KitsuneRommel]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I didn't say you had total freedom to do whatever you wanted.  I said you had total freedom to decide why your character did the things he did.  You had absolute power to determine your character's motives.

Why can't you do that in Mass Effect? Why are you being nice to that person? Why were you cruel to that alien? The game doesn't show what Shepard thinks.

[Christmas Ape]

I think what we've learned is that a game that was intended from day one to straddle two different genres does not slavishly hold itself to the conventions of one of them as generously interpreted by its fans.



Good?

[Sylvius the Mad]

KitsuneRommel wrote...

Why can't you do that in Mass Effect? Why are you being nice to that person? Why were you cruel to that alien? The game doesn't show what Shepard thinks.

But the game does show what Shepard says, and you don't have any control over it.  So any motives you choose might be contradicted by the actual line uttered.  You cannot construct a coherent character.  Every conversation runs the risk of saying something that your Shepard never would have said under any circumstances.

If we could see the dialogue options before we chose them, then we could avoid those character-breaking lines.  But ME insists on hiding the lines from us (for no reason I can fathom), thus routinely giving us out-of-character behaviour.

Schneidend wrote...

So, choosing dialogue options makes it not an RPG?

No, NOT choosing dialogue options makes it not an RPG, and in ME you don't get to choose dialogue options.  The options are hidden from you, even when they're short enough that they would fit in the wheel interface.  This is why I insist that the point of the wheel is to be obfuscatory.  There's no other explanation.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 05 juillet 2010 - 06:50 .

[Cra5y Pineapple]

I've always been a bigger fan of shooters over RPGs since RPGs aren't really about skill but more about how long you play them (AKA: Grinding). In Shooters there is actually some skill involved with aiming and tactics n' stuff.

I played ME1 and loved the plot but found myself slaving through gameplay to get to the cutscenes/dialouge. In ME2 it's a completely different story. I find the gameplay amazing and severely addicting and it is so much better than ME1s'. Powers actually hit your target and do some notable damage now, unlike in ME1. It doesn't have a really confusing Inventory/upgrade system and there are no repetative scenery/objects (another reason i'm not fond of RPGs) which definately satisfied me. And finally, it catches up with every other game in the world and adds Headshot damage.
The only thing I found annoying at first was the low fire rate of the Sniper but it made up for it with a scope that doesn't decide to randomly jump fifty metres in the air all the time.

[Christmas Ape]

You should probably change that signature. Emotional attachment to the conventions of a genre the game doesn't intend to adhere to isn't really "logic".

[Whatever Works]

The reaction this guy is getting on this board would pale in comparison to if he went to Japan with those same arguments

[Sylvius the Mad]

Christmas Ape wrote...

You should probably change that signature. Emotional attachment to the conventions of a genre the game doesn't intend to adhere to isn't really "logic".

I don't like them because they're conventions of the genre.  I like them because they're features I enjoy.

Do you people honeslty make decisions in life without thinking though what your objectives are?  Because that's how Shepard is forced to behave through the dialogue wheel.

[Whatever Works]

...what?

[Crippledcarny]

Your judgment, tastes, beliefs, preferences, and opinions are wrong. Here, let me correct them for you.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Pretty much, I doubt you'll find any like minded people on this side of the forum.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Pretty much, I doubt you'll find any like minded people on this side of the forum.

Yes, that's it.  I yearn to belong.

/sarcasm

[Fedowyn]

A few points...



1. Voice wheel and dialogue wheel mean this game isn't an rpg? what?



2. having to actually aim at what you're shooting at?! BLASPHEMY!



3. the heat clips made it more realistic, as you actually had to reload instead of waiting for a cooldown timer. also, in ME1 you could literally have assault rifles that couldn't overheat.



4. You died and your barely recognizable corpse was brought back to life, of course you're going to look a bit different. miranda even said "you're scars aren't completely healed" as you wake up.



5. They changed the way classes worked. for the better. each one actually has unique abilities. If you used the bonus talent in ME1 for snipers, then duh it isn't going to carry over. If you're really getting so butt-hurt create an infiltrator or soldier.

[Massadonious1]

Ah good, another labelling argument. The "Dissapointment" thread has gone at least 100 pages without one. I almost forgot what they looked like.

[Crippledcarny]

I don't see why you guys can't get his point about the dialogue wheel. The fact is because of the way ME is set up you're not choosing the way a character acts. What you're choosing is if you want to see this preset character be good or bad. You are not put in the place of the character like you are in most other RPGs, you are not the character but you're simply watching one.

With that said I don't believe that's a bad thing, and from what I understand, Sylvius, isn't saying either. What he's saying is that he doesn't prefer it. You don't have to agree with it but mocking him isn't going to change his mind on it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Crippledcarny wrote...

With that said I don't believe that's a bad thing, and from what I understand, Sylvius, isn't saying either. What he's saying is that he doesn't prefer it.

Mostly I'm saying I find it hard to play, because I don't really understand what my input amounts to.

I don't get it.  What am I doing, exactly?  When I choose one wheel option over another, is the actual paraphrased option meaningful?  If so, how do I parse it to get that meaning out?  And if not, and I'm really just choosing Paragon vs. Renegade, why are the paraphrased options there?  And what do Paragon and Renegade entail?

In a typical BioWare game, I gain the information I need to choose between dialogue options by reading the full text of what my character will say if I select them.  That tells me what the results of my choice will be.

But in ME I haven't been able to determine what the results of my selection will be, so I don't have any criteria by which I choose one over another.

Either the dialogue wheel mechanic doesn't make any sense, or it hasn't been documented well.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Pretty much, I doubt you'll find any like minded people on this side of the forum.

Yes, that's it.  I yearn to belong.

/sarcasm

Probably

[Crippledcarny]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Mostly I'm saying I find it hard to play, because I don't really understand what my input amounts to.

I don't get it.  What am I doing, exactly?  When I choose one wheel option over another, is the actual paraphrased option meaningful?  If so, how do I parse it to get that meaning out?  And if not, and I'm really just choosing Paragon vs. Renegade, why are the paraphrased options there?  And what do Paragon and Renegade entail?

In a typical BioWare game, I gain the information I need to choose between dialogue options by reading the full text of what my character will say if I select them.  That tells me what the results of my choice will be.

But in ME I haven't been able to determine what the results of my selection will be, so I don't have any criteria by which I choose one over another.

Either the dialogue wheel mechanic doesn't make any sense, or it hasn't been documented well.

If I recall I heard them describing the wheel has having an emotional response or action and then the dialog goes into detail of what that response was or something along those lines. Up is Paragon down is Renegade middle is neutral bla bla bla.

Basically from what I can tell you just pick if you want Shepard to be a Paragon or a Renegade and then you just keep fallowing that path. Mixing them causes for odd things to happen with dialog and taking the neutral road makes for all kinds of problems with out charm or intimidate.

I really don't find it all too bad if you just stay with a path, but if you're trying to RP it more than just watch it, you'll always be disapointed.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Crippledcarny wrote...

I really don't find it all too bad if you just stay with a path, but if you're trying to RP it more than just watch it, you'll always be disapointed.

But just watching it is dull, so then I'm disappointed either way.

I find your point really informative here.  You're basically saying that it's not really possible to roleplay in this game that purports, on some level, to be a roleplaying game.

This has been my point for many months on these fora.  It's nonsensical to call the game a roleplaying game if the gameplay doesn't feature any roleplaying.

If I recall I heard them describing the wheel has having an emotional response or action

I remember that, too.

The problem there is that I'm not likely to make emotional decisions about anything.  My characters are calm, rational people.  My characters are like that because those are the sort sof people I like being around.  One of my complaints about Mark Meer's voice-work in ME is that he always sounds like an overwrought lunatic.  Some people complained that Jennifer Hale's VO was emotionless, but emotionless is what I want, so I loved FemShep's voice.  I just wish I'd had some idea what it was going to say.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 06 juillet 2010 - 06:04 .

[bjdbwea]

I understand your argument. You probably have to be an RPG fan to understand it. But even as an RPG fan, I think the dialogue wheel was a great invention, and I love that my player character is fully voiced and really plays a role in the cutscenes (as long as the voice acting is as good as it is). I would still call ME 1 an RPG, just an RPG that does some things differently, and that I wouldn't really call ME 2 such is certainly not because of the dialogue wheel.



Actually, if you replayed the previous BioWare games, more often than not it quickly became clear that whatever line of dialogue you chose led to the exact same response from the NPCs. Whereas in the ME series, your different choices often make a real difference.

[sanadawarrior]

Heh, I have the completely oposite opinion from you. The dialouge wheel to me made playing other rpgs a much more bland experience because of the silent protagonists, in fact it was one of the things that ruined Dragon Age for me and makes it the only bioware game I dont like...