189 réponses à ce sujet

[Mister Mida]

You gotta love these arguments/fights, especially since they are neverending and a winner will never be declared.

Modifié par Mister Mida, 05 juillet 2010 - 02:31 .

[smudboy]

Il Divo wrote...

While I understand there seems to be some tension amongst posters, I shall play regardless if only as an exercise in reasoning.

smudboy wrote...

>snip<

ME2 Human Reaper: The ME universe is now broken beyond belief

I'm still not quite certain I understand your criticism. I have watched your link. But I still did not detect an argument, merely a conclusion. It definitely sounds like you did not like the human reaper. But beyond humorous remarks (which can equally be made for robo-Saren, the Geth, or the Rachni) you have not really explained what is wrong with the Reaper which the previous escape. Example: You question both the Reaper's size and shape. What precisely is wrong with the Reaper's size? Given that your typical Reaper dwarfs a standard ship, I should expect it to be massive.

What is the utility of something that size?  Just because the Reaper Ship is huge, doesn't mean an actual Reaper should be.
What is the point of something that shape?  Soylent Green must be made into massive gingerbread men?  Why?  What aspect of the human genome constitutes this reproduction?  What genes?  What introns/exons?  What genotypes/phenotypes?  When you're messing around with science fiction, and you start melting people down into goo, and that somehow acts as a building block to another cybernetic creature, massive questions arise.

For Saren, his organic components melt off, leaving the robotic frog creature you see, and then we believe that Sovereign is controlling it directly.  This makes sense.  I'm not saying it's a great or bad idea.  But comparing this to the believability and sensical nature of a building sized skeleton magically being infused with human goo is a painful, nightmare inducing activity left for insane asylum contemplations.

[SithLordExarKun]

Ecael wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Ecael wrote...
I'm assuming your mood can be described in this fashion:

<_<    <_<    <_<    <_<  

You're right. That's not bitter, that's manic-depressive.

I can assure I'm in great mental standing.  After all, I have to sift through yours, and other bull**** whenever I reply.

I guess I have to communicate with pictures, since you seem to understand those best.

<_<<_<<_<<_< !=

But there are times.

Right, because your footnoting of posts with "Give me good writing please!" or "This part of Mass Effect 2 is ridiculous!" in every post you make is actually you laughing.

That's definitely not a good sign.

Also, you're resorting to swearing (as usual), so we can all assume you're going off into the other end again.

I don't know which is worse, and i can't pick one :
-Bashing the game for months in a row(drago, skullsandbones,terror_K Bjb-liarafan)
-Or making a 60 minute video to bash the game because he hates the game so much.

[smudboy]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Ecael wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Ecael wrote...
I'm assuming your mood can be described in this fashion:

<_<    <_<    <_<    <_<  

You're right. That's not bitter, that's manic-depressive.

I can assure I'm in great mental standing.  After all, I have to sift through yours, and other bull**** whenever I reply.

I guess I have to communicate with pictures, since you seem to understand those best.

<_<<_<<_<<_< !=

But there are times.

Right, because your footnoting of posts with "Give me good writing please!" or "This part of Mass Effect 2 is ridiculous!" in every post you make is actually you laughing.

That's definitely not a good sign.

Also, you're resorting to swearing (as usual), so we can all assume you're going off into the other end again.

I don't know which is worse, and i can't pick one :
-Bashing the game for months in a row(drago, skullsandbones,terror_K Bjb-liarafan)
-Or making a 60 minute video to bash the game because he hates the game so much.

I don't know what's worse, and I can't pick one:
-Having the same opinion for months in a row and repeating themselves because they want to (anyone who's had an opinion about anything, ever, for months)
-Making a 60 minute video analyzing the plot of a game because he likes the game so much.

[davidshooter]

I don't get why the human Reaper is so small, and why it doesn't appear to be a "ship" design like the others. Unless my scale is off the human reaper could have fit inside Sovereign easily even though the other reapers at the end of the game seem to be generally Sovereign's size and design.

I was very disappointed by the final boss.

Modifié par davidshooter, 05 juillet 2010 - 02:38 .

[smudboy]

Ecael wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Ecael wrote...
I'm assuming your mood can be described in this fashion:

<_<    <_<    <_<    <_<  

You're right. That's not bitter, that's manic-depressive.

I can assure I'm in great mental standing.  After all, I have to sift through yours, and other bull**** whenever I reply.

I guess I have to communicate with pictures, since you seem to understand those best.

<_<<_<<_<<_< !=

But there are times.

Right, because your footnoting of posts with "Give me good writing please!" or "This part of Mass Effect 2 is ridiculous!" in every post you make is actually you laughing.

That's definitely not a good sign.

Also, you're resorting to swearing (as usual), so we can all assume you're going off into the other end again.

Yes.

No, laughing is a great sign.  Well, it's more pleasant than thinking along your lines, spending x number of hours coming up with game design #294 and posting that on a forum, and then stating the analytical guy over there is a douche, but then again I'm not you.

I resort to swearing because that's all people understand after a certain point.

[SithLordExarKun]

smudboy wrote...

What is the utility of something that size?  Just because the Reaper Ship is huge, doesn't mean an actual Reaper should be.
What is the point of something that shape?  Soylent Green must be made into massive gingerbread men?  Why?  What aspect of the human genome constitutes this reproduction?  What genes?  What introns/exons?  What genotypes/phenotypes?  When you're messing around with science fiction, and you start melting people down into goo, and that somehow acts as a building block to another cybernetic creature, massive questions arise.

Do you bash everything that cannot be explained? Do you not know the existence of speculation and do you expect bioware to actually waste time to scientifically explain how this method of reproduction works in a video game? You are beyond ridiculous.

You may have brought up some great points in your video, but right now you are getting beyond ridiculous in your expectations. Your like a personal trainer that expects his 100lb student to become a 265lb mass monster in one day, an expectation that cannot be achieved.

[SithLordExarKun]

smudboy wrote...
-Having the same opinion for months in a row and repeating themselves because they want to (anyone who's had an opinion about anything, ever, for months)
-Making a 60 minute video analyzing the plot of a game because he likes the game so much.

Ah yes, resorting to petty copying because you now lack the competence to actually argue intelligently.

I wonder though, whats this "opinion" that i had supposedly spreading for months? Was it the "I think ME2 is better than ME1"? Or that i thought ME2 had flaws?

Funny though, i have made no such video regarding why i liked ME2 compared to you who received a hell lot of backlash on your videos.

[davidshooter]

Captain Cornhole wrote...

I think the Humen reaper would have eventually ended up looking like the cuttlefish shape the Reapers tend to go by. If you look at the concept art for the Humen Reaper it will show that it will eventually look like it's pals in darkspace.

Is that art online anywhere?

[Il Divo]

smudboy wrote...

What is the utility of something that size?  Just because the Reaper Ship is huge, doesn't mean an actual Reaper should be.
What is the point of something that shape?  Soylent Green must be made into massive gingerbread men?  Why?  What aspect of the human genome constitutes this reproduction?  What genes?  What introns/exons?  What genotypes/phenotypes?  When you're messing around with science fiction, and you start melting people down into goo, and that somehow acts as a building block to another cybernetic creature, massive questions arise.

For Saren, his organic components melt off, leaving the robotic frog creature you see, and then we believe that Sovereign is controlling it directly.  This makes sense.  I'm not saying it's a great or bad idea.  But comparing this to the believability and sensical nature of a building sized skeleton magically being infused with human goo is a painful, nightmare inducing activity left for insane asylum contemplations.

Forgive me, but I'm detecting several assumptions. It has been some time since I've played the game, but where precisely are we told that Reapers are ever meant to "leave" their shells. Now if you are saying that the embryo design of the human reaper is ridiculous, I can understand that, much like how robo-Saren is ridiculous. But claims of "utility" sound odd when Reapers were never intended to walk around on normal surfaces. That's what husks were for.

To provide a counter to your Saren point, why does this make sense? We see Saren shot right through the head by Shepard's squad (or even himself). Am I to believe that the robot parts are undamaged by this? The idea that Saren could exist as an organic while containing a robot person inside him is just as ridiculous a notion as human goo fueling a Reaper vessel. How was Sovereign able to fit a giant robot in Saren's body? Was it placed over or under his exoskeleton? Why does it seem to be in perfect working order? The best explanation I can see is that the Reapers posses advanced techology that we can't understand. Easy, simple, and creates the best continuity.

Modifié par Il Divo, 05 juillet 2010 - 02:50 .

[smudboy]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

smudboy wrote...

What is the utility of something that size?  Just because the Reaper Ship is huge, doesn't mean an actual Reaper should be.
What is the point of something that shape?  Soylent Green must be made into massive gingerbread men?  Why?  What aspect of the human genome constitutes this reproduction?  What genes?  What introns/exons?  What genotypes/phenotypes?  When you're messing around with science fiction, and you start melting people down into goo, and that somehow acts as a building block to another cybernetic creature, massive questions arise.

Do you bash everything that cannot be explained? Do you not know the existence of speculation and do you expect bioware to actually waste time to scientifically explain how this method of reproduction works in a video game? You are beyond ridiculous.

You may have brought up some great points in your video, but right now you are getting beyond ridiculous in your expectations. Your like a personal trainer that expects his 100lb student to become a 265lb mass monster in one day, an expectation that cannot be achieved.

I don't bash, I'm asking questions.  Although if by asking questions, you mean bash, then yes, I do bash everything that doesn't make sense.

I do not know the existence of your definition of speculation.  When designing something, form follows function.  Please explain to me how the shape, size and unknown utility of the Reaper constitutes the need for liquid humans to magically be grafted onto a metallic skeleton.

I'm beyond ridiculous for asking questions, about a video game's plot, to make sense?  Like to expect the same relevance of plot and exposition from the previous game?  Was this not ME"2"?  So they can write characters well, but not events, or the entire point of a story itself?  What?

Some of the points in my video, happen to be the exact same observations, and questions, I just stated in this thread.

I don't understand your analogy.  I just want what I see and hear to make sense.  These questions occur to me naturally when seeing the ridiculous monstrocity that is the...ridiculous monstrocity of the Human Reaper.  Obviously these didn't occur to you, so you're very defensive about not having knowledge of such things.

[smudboy]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

smudboy wrote...
-Having the same opinion for months in a row and repeating themselves because they want to (anyone who's had an opinion about anything, ever, for months)
-Making a 60 minute video analyzing the plot of a game because he likes the game so much.

Ah yes, resorting to petty copying because you now lack the competence to actually argue intelligently.

I wonder though, whats this "opinion" that i had supposedly spreading for months? Was it the "I think ME2 is better than ME1"? Or that i thought ME2 had flaws?

Funny though, i have made no such video regarding why i liked ME2 compared to you who received a hell lot of backlash on your videos.

Petty?  I'm just shoveling what you gave me right back at you.  Or if anything, an homage to you.  Because your reasoning is so well thought out, I thought it best to use the same style.  Consider it an ego rub for your awesome.

[Annie_Dear]

[KarmaTheAlligator]

smudboy wrote...

What is the utility of something that size?  Just because the Reaper Ship is huge, doesn't mean an actual Reaper should be.
What is the point of something that shape?  Soylent Green must be made into massive gingerbread men?  Why?  What aspect of the human genome constitutes this reproduction?  What genes?  What introns/exons?  What genotypes/phenotypes?  When you're messing around with science fiction, and you start melting people down into goo, and that somehow acts as a building block to another cybernetic creature, massive questions arise.

For Saren, his organic components melt off, leaving the robotic frog creature you see, and then we believe that Sovereign is controlling it directly.  This makes sense.  I'm not saying it's a great or bad idea.  But comparing this to the believability and sensical nature of a building sized skeleton magically being infused with human goo is a painful, nightmare inducing activity left for insane asylum contemplations.

I'll tell you something: wait until Mass Effect 3 is out and you've played it. For all we know these will be answered there.

[smudboy]

Il Divo wrote...

smudboy wrote...

What is the utility of something that size?  Just because the Reaper Ship is huge, doesn't mean an actual Reaper should be.
What is the point of something that shape?  Soylent Green must be made into massive gingerbread men?  Why?  What aspect of the human genome constitutes this reproduction?  What genes?  What introns/exons?  What genotypes/phenotypes?  When you're messing around with science fiction, and you start melting people down into goo, and that somehow acts as a building block to another cybernetic creature, massive questions arise.

For Saren, his organic components melt off, leaving the robotic frog creature you see, and then we believe that Sovereign is controlling it directly.  This makes sense.  I'm not saying it's a great or bad idea.  But comparing this to the believability and sensical nature of a building sized skeleton magically being infused with human goo is a painful, nightmare inducing activity left for insane asylum contemplations.

Forgive me, but I'm detecting several assumptions. It has been some time since I've played the game, but where precisely are we told that Reapers are ever meant to "leave" their shells. Now if you are saying that the embryo design of the human reaper is ridiculous, I can understand that, much like how robo-Saren is ridiculous. But claims of "utility" sound odd when Reapers were never intended to walk around on normal surfaces. That's what husks were for.

To provide a counter to your Saren point, why does this make sense? We see Saren shot right through the head by Shepard's squad (or even himself). Am I to believe that the robot parts are undamaged by this? The idea that Saren could exist as an organic while containing a robot person inside him is just as ridiculous a notion as human goo fueling a Reaper vessel. The best explanation I can see is that the Reapers posses advanced techology that we can't understand. Easy, simple, and creates the best continuity.

You are forgiven...for now!

We are not told that Reapers even have shells, merely, that in ME2 Reapers are now giant cybernetic monstrocities, and not full blown AIs that fly around in large spaceships.  Apparently software needs really '****in organic slush magically grafted onto a skeleton made to look like the slushie fully-phenotyped organism it came from.  Whatever that means (nonsense.)  Apparently organic-flesh components are okay, but when the universe pops up organics, Reapers think they're ants.  Only when it's time to harvest do they consider us worthwhile, because they can now make more Reapers, and so they have this insignifincant/incredibly important opinion that changes every 50k years.

Robo Saren was a Turian first.  His body was augmented, if not replaced by cybernetics/completely inorganic components.  This makes sense: we understand the idea of surgery, implants, and augments.  We do not understand having a human cybernetic giant that swings around like King Kong on a leesh, that's held up by glass supports that are also feeding tubes, whose "food" magically goes "somewhere" into/on itself, and that this process has been going on for...forever.

Reapers possess advanced technology?

[smudboy]

KarmaTheAlligator wrote...

smudboy wrote...

What is the utility of something that size?  Just because the Reaper Ship is huge, doesn't mean an actual Reaper should be.
What is the point of something that shape?  Soylent Green must be made into massive gingerbread men?  Why?  What aspect of the human genome constitutes this reproduction?  What genes?  What introns/exons?  What genotypes/phenotypes?  When you're messing around with science fiction, and you start melting people down into goo, and that somehow acts as a building block to another cybernetic creature, massive questions arise.

For Saren, his organic components melt off, leaving the robotic frog creature you see, and then we believe that Sovereign is controlling it directly.  This makes sense.  I'm not saying it's a great or bad idea.  But comparing this to the believability and sensical nature of a building sized skeleton magically being infused with human goo is a painful, nightmare inducing activity left for insane asylum contemplations.

I'll tell you something: wait until Mass Effect 3 is out and you've played it. For all we know these will be answered there.

Fovgive me, but they'd have to do a complete exposition on every main event of ME2, like massive flashbacks, to do that any justice, making ME3: The Apology.  Which I don't think it'll be.

I think they'll just take what they liked in ME2 and run with it.  Dark energy, Reaper invasion, yadda yadda.

Protheans?

[KarmaTheAlligator]

That's one of the reason the codex is there...

[smudboy]

KarmaTheAlligator wrote...

That's one of the reason the codex is there...

Who needs a primary source when you've got reference material?  Damn you and your need for a properly explained story. Always getting in the way of my awesome final boss design!  I want to focus on pew-pew-pewing that human thing with...3 eyes!

[Il Divo]

smudboy wrote...

You are forgiven...for now!

We are not told that Reapers even have shells, merely, that in ME2 Reapers are now giant cybernetic monstrocities, and not full blown AIs that fly around in large spaceships.  Apparently software needs really '****in organic slush magically grafted onto a skeleton made to look like the slushie fully-phenotyped organism it came from.  Whatever that means (nonsense.)  Apparently organic-flesh components are okay, but when the universe pops up organics, Reapers think they're ants.  Only when it's time to harvest do they consider us worthwhile, because they can now make more Reapers, and so they have this insignifincant/incredibly important opinion that changes every 50k years.

See, here you bring up a very interesting point especially the bold. It touches a hypocrisy I've yet to understand about the Reapers from Mass Effect 1 which you touch on in your video. These are beings who claim that humanity is beneath their notice, no more than ants essentially. If that is the case, we shouldn't even be worth the attention of attempted genocide in the first place. I personally do not go out of my way to step on ants I come across, but likewise I probably wouldn't notice if I stepped on an ant. That is why they are "beneath my notice".

I personally think that Sovereign's speech in Mass Effect 1 was designed for maximum impact but minimal logic.  
Clearly we are not beneath their notice if they intentionally go out of their way to cull us every 50k years. Hence why reproduction seems a sensible goal for the Reapers.

Robo Saren was a Turian first.  His body was augmented, if not replaced by cybernetics/completely inorganic components.  This makes sense: we understand the idea of surgery, implants, and augments.  We do not understand having a human cybernetic giant that swings around like King Kong on a leesh, that's held up by glass supports that are also feeding tubes, whose "food" magically goes "somewhere" into/on itself, and that this process has been going on for...forever.

Reapers possess advanced technology?

I understand augmentationss. I understand implants. And I definitely understand surgery. What I don't understand is how these all "meshed" (so to speak) together to create a robot/organic being. Saren's body was not enlarged to make room for his robot body. What I don't understand is where augmentation/surgery became "We are going to hide an entire metal body inside you while you remain perfectly functional". I do not yet know of any surgery capable of doing this. Look at Saren's robot skull. Am I to believe he fit that and a brain inside his head? And even more, who or what performed the surgery? We know Saren received them from Sovereign, but how? Did the Husks perform the manual labor? Does he have a giant robot-implanting lab? How?

Modifié par Il Divo, 05 juillet 2010 - 03:16 .

[SithLordExarKun]

smudboy wrote...

SithLordExarKun wrote...

smudboy wrote...
-Having the same opinion for months in a row and repeating themselves because they want to (anyone who's had an opinion about anything, ever, for months)
-Making a 60 minute video analyzing the plot of a game because he likes the game so much.

Ah yes, resorting to petty copying because you now lack the competence to actually argue intelligently.

I wonder though, whats this "opinion" that i had supposedly spreading for months? Was it the "I think ME2 is better than ME1"? Or that i thought ME2 had flaws?

Funny though, i have made no such video regarding why i liked ME2 compared to you who received a hell lot of backlash on your videos.

Petty?  I'm just shoveling what you gave me right back at you.  Or if anything, an homage to you.  Because your reasoning is so well thought out, I thought it best to use the same style.  Consider it an ego rub for your awesome.

And how do you know i was "shoveling" that right at you? Or do you assume it as such when all i did was ask a simple question to ecael because obviously the very first point wasn't about you.

By the way your attempt at being sarcastic fails to impress anyone which includes me, you might want to try that out once again.
Lastly, quit being so petty, i wasn't attacking you, so please don't play the victim.

smudboy wrote...


I don't bash,

Your videos
says otherwise.

smudboy wrote...


I'm asking questions.  Although if by asking questions, you mean
bash, then yes, I do bash everything that doesn't make sense.

 
See the above.

smudboy wrote...
I do not know the existence
of your definition of speculation.  When designing something, form
follows function.  Please explain to me how the shape, size and
unknown utility of the Reaper constitutes the need for liquid humans to
magically be grafted onto a metallic skeleton.

Speculate. Or at least wait until ME3's out which should conclude
everything. ME2 obviously left alot of unanswered questions, exactly
the same way the first game did(like y'know with your logic of form
following fuction, why is it never explained why reapers fly in every
500000 years and blow the whole galaxy to kingdom come).

You
don't expect everything to be answered immediately do you? Theres a
reason they left alot out of the picture for the human reaper at least,
they want it to be ambiguous, exactly the same way george lucas
never answered if Darth Plaguies was Anakins father due to him having
the ability to create life with the force.

Wheres the fun if
everything is simply spoon fed and given to you at first hand?

smudboy
wrote...
I'm beyond ridiculous for asking questions, about a video
game's plot, to make sense?  Like to expect the same relevance of plot
and exposition from the previous game?  Was this not ME"2"?  So they can
write characters well, but not events, or the entire point of a story
itself?  What?

Your attitude and your expectations are.
You expect a video game to go into genetic detail(which is the
scientific level of many geneticists in universities) to explain how a
human reaper is formed, thats exactly how ridiculous you are.

smudboy
wrote...
I don't understand your analogy.  I just want what I see
and hear to make sense.  These questions occur to me naturally when
seeing the ridiculous monstrocity that is the...ridiculous monstrocity
of the Human Reaper.  Obviously these didn't occur to you, so you're
very defensive about not having knowledge of such things.

See the above.

[Tooneyman]

Heres the real reason everyone was pizzed off at the end of this argument. This is why the human reaper makes sense. Bioware gave away the whole ending and you didn't even know it.

[klossen4]

just me that started ignore smudboy.

[davidshooter]

Thanks for the photos Captain.