Hey everyone,
I recently made another warrior and I want him to be a tank. I was thinking about experimenting with a dual-wield tank. Now I know he won't have the defensive capabilities of a sword and board tank but I think with the right party makeup it could work.
I was thinking I could dump a ton of points in to constitution and instead of trying to prevent damage, I will just try to endure it. If I have two healers (wynne healing full-time and Morrigan healing when she needs to) I should be able to last, and I would do more damage than if I had a shield. Also I could keep my self up with that reaver talent.
Thoughts?
Is a dual-wielding tank viable?
Débuté par
Yamo425
, juil. 04 2010 10:07
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#2
Posté 04 juillet 2010 - 10:39
Urazz
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No it's not viable at all. Dual wield tanks have no method of avoiding being knocked down to my knowledge. With 2hander warriors, at least you have indomitable that makes you immune to almost all knockdowns.
Modifié par Urazz, 04 juillet 2010 - 10:40 .
#3
Posté 04 juillet 2010 - 10:47
Eudaemonium
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I have to agree with Urazz. The point of a tank is not to deal damage, but to avoid or absorb it - S&S is the best for this, 2H second (due to their immunity to knockdown). DW is more suited to a DPS Warrior who specialises in dealing as much damage as possible while maintaining a level of survivability (due to heavier armour than a rogue). There is always Alistair or Shale for the tank role, if you even decide to use one (you don't *need* a tank, after all, they just make thinsg easier [I still need a tank though]).
EDIT: That's not to say that you can't make a DW Tank - this isn't an MMO where you have to get the 'right' build. So if you want to try it, go ahead and just have fun! Just because it's not the most optimised class doesn't mean you can't use it.
EDIT: That's not to say that you can't make a DW Tank - this isn't an MMO where you have to get the 'right' build. So if you want to try it, go ahead and just have fun! Just because it's not the most optimised class doesn't mean you can't use it.
Modifié par Eudaemonium, 04 juillet 2010 - 10:49 .
#4
Posté 04 juillet 2010 - 11:29
soteria
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I'm going to disagree with both of the above. It's not the best build, but a DW warrior can tank decently. Don't put your points in constitution, though--dexterity, all the way, with dual daggers. Constitution doesn't make you easier to heal or help you end the fight faster, while dexterity increases damage, attack, and defense. You'll end up on your backside some, though you can mitigate that with extra-high physical resist. I'd go Templar/Champion or Templar/Reaver.
#5
Posté 04 juillet 2010 - 01:16
T0rin3
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Yep, dual dagger DW warrior is a good tank, and unlike a rogue has Taunt and Threaten. You get really high defense, good armor and can still dish out decent damage. The only problem, as others have mentioned, is teh lack of knockdown immunity. The main reason that's a problem is that the enemy AI will always switch away from a knocked down enemy, which is why it sucks when your tank (who is supposed to be holding the enemies) gets knocked down.
#6
Posté 04 juillet 2010 - 01:49
Yamo425
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Thanks for all the feedback guys. I think I'm going to go ahead and try and see If it fails miserably or not. I'll make sure to adjust my tactics to make the party play it safe when I'm knocked down. Any particular reasons daggers are the best? Is it because I can build threat faster?
#7
Posté 04 juillet 2010 - 02:22
soteria
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Because you want to raise dexterity for higher defense anyway, and daggers gain damage from dex.
#8
Posté 04 juillet 2010 - 03:08
Yamo425
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Thanks! This sounds like it could work. In addition, having one of my specs as templar and having fast attacks, plus the character being a dwarf means I'm going to show magic users what's up!
#9
Posté 04 juillet 2010 - 03:46
swk3000
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The main reason for using Dual Daggers is because using two daggers gives you the best attack speed. Going with even a single larger weapon reduces your attack speed.
A Dual Wield Warrior makes an excellent DEX tank; as Soteria mentioned, Daggers get damage from Dexterity. This means that if you get your Warrior's Strength up just high enough to equip whatever armor you prefer, then dump the rest into Dexterity, you'll have a character who is much less likely to be hit.
As a general rule, the best solution to the lack of Knockdown and Flanking immunity that SnS and 2H Warriors get is going to be damage output. The faster an enemy dies, the less chances they have to knock you down. In this case, your best offensive skills are going to be Riposte, Dual-Weapon Sweep, and Flurry.
Riposte isn't going to get it's Stun effect very often, because the skill does a Physical Resistance Check against your Cunning attribute. Your Cunning isn't going to be very high, so they'll often pass. However, the skill performs two hits very quickly, so while you won't be stunning them, you will be dealing damage more quickly than you would otherwise.
Dual-Weapon Sweep is an AoE ability that hits multiple enemies for higher-than-normal damage. Not only that, but for enemies directly in front of you, they take two hits. It's also got a fast cool-down (15 seconds), so it will be one of your primary offensive talents.
Flurry is a basic three-hit combo against a single enemy. Like Riposte, these hits occur faster than three Auto-Attack strikes, so it's great for inflicting fast damage against a single enemy.
As for specializations, I'm not big on the Templar. The only real reason to get it is for the ability to wear the Knight-Commander's Plate, and going with that reduces your options as far as equipment goes. Sure, 100% Spell Resist is nice, but while enemy Mages are easily the biggest threat, they're also the least numerous, and the first to die.
My personal equip setup would look something like this:
Weapon 1: The Rose's Thorn
Weapon 2: Thorn of the Dead Gods (Silverite version)
Head: Rock-Knocker
Hands: Wade's Superior Dragonbone Plate Gloves
Body: Wade's Superior Dragonbone Plate Armor
Feet: Wade's Superior Dragonbone Plate Boots
Belt: Andruil's Blessing
Amulet: The Spellward
Ring 1: Key to the City
Ring 2: Ring of the Warrior
I would actually make a few different choices as far as equipment goes, but that's all DLC, which you may not have. This setup gives you things you can use without having to get DLC. I also tried to stick with Massive Armor; this character is going to be your Tank, after all.
Also note that, even when sticking with items from the vanilla game, there are a few things you could do differently. For example, you could drop the Ring of the Warrior for the Lifegiver. And the Rock-Knocker can be swapped out for Corruption during the end-game.
Anyway, that's my input. It's so in-depth because I'm trying to do a Solo Nightmare Run with a Dual-Wield Warrior, so your thread is an opportunity to get some things that have been bouncing around in my head straightened out.
A Dual Wield Warrior makes an excellent DEX tank; as Soteria mentioned, Daggers get damage from Dexterity. This means that if you get your Warrior's Strength up just high enough to equip whatever armor you prefer, then dump the rest into Dexterity, you'll have a character who is much less likely to be hit.
As a general rule, the best solution to the lack of Knockdown and Flanking immunity that SnS and 2H Warriors get is going to be damage output. The faster an enemy dies, the less chances they have to knock you down. In this case, your best offensive skills are going to be Riposte, Dual-Weapon Sweep, and Flurry.
Riposte isn't going to get it's Stun effect very often, because the skill does a Physical Resistance Check against your Cunning attribute. Your Cunning isn't going to be very high, so they'll often pass. However, the skill performs two hits very quickly, so while you won't be stunning them, you will be dealing damage more quickly than you would otherwise.
Dual-Weapon Sweep is an AoE ability that hits multiple enemies for higher-than-normal damage. Not only that, but for enemies directly in front of you, they take two hits. It's also got a fast cool-down (15 seconds), so it will be one of your primary offensive talents.
Flurry is a basic three-hit combo against a single enemy. Like Riposte, these hits occur faster than three Auto-Attack strikes, so it's great for inflicting fast damage against a single enemy.
As for specializations, I'm not big on the Templar. The only real reason to get it is for the ability to wear the Knight-Commander's Plate, and going with that reduces your options as far as equipment goes. Sure, 100% Spell Resist is nice, but while enemy Mages are easily the biggest threat, they're also the least numerous, and the first to die.
My personal equip setup would look something like this:
Weapon 1: The Rose's Thorn
Weapon 2: Thorn of the Dead Gods (Silverite version)
Head: Rock-Knocker
Hands: Wade's Superior Dragonbone Plate Gloves
Body: Wade's Superior Dragonbone Plate Armor
Feet: Wade's Superior Dragonbone Plate Boots
Belt: Andruil's Blessing
Amulet: The Spellward
Ring 1: Key to the City
Ring 2: Ring of the Warrior
I would actually make a few different choices as far as equipment goes, but that's all DLC, which you may not have. This setup gives you things you can use without having to get DLC. I also tried to stick with Massive Armor; this character is going to be your Tank, after all.
Also note that, even when sticking with items from the vanilla game, there are a few things you could do differently. For example, you could drop the Ring of the Warrior for the Lifegiver. And the Rock-Knocker can be swapped out for Corruption during the end-game.
Anyway, that's my input. It's so in-depth because I'm trying to do a Solo Nightmare Run with a Dual-Wield Warrior, so your thread is an opportunity to get some things that have been bouncing around in my head straightened out.
#10
Posté 04 juillet 2010 - 04:00
Yamo425
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Wow solo nightmare mode must be hard!
Thanks so much for the input, and I do have all dlc except DS which I should get today. One thing that often turns me off to dual wielding in games is having to decided which weapon goes in which hand.. is there a general rule for this in Dragon Age? Also, is the Reaver spec good with DW?
Thanks so much for the input, and I do have all dlc except DS which I should get today. One thing that often turns me off to dual wielding in games is having to decided which weapon goes in which hand.. is there a general rule for this in Dragon Age? Also, is the Reaver spec good with DW?
#11
Posté 04 juillet 2010 - 04:41
swk3000
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If you have all the DLC, then you can use the Helm of Honnleath instead of the Rock-Knocker. You may also want to consider Cailan's Armor Set, for it's increased Armor Rating, and it's godly Combat Health Regen set bonus. However, going with the full set locks your Helm slot down, so whether or not that's worth it is up to you.
As for which weapon to put in your off-hand, it really doesn't matter much. With Dual-Weapon Training, the damage of the off-hand weapon is increased. It doesn't completely make up for the damage lost by having the weapon in the off-hand, but it's something. I'd personally put the weaker weapon in the off-hand, so that I lose less damage overall.
As for the Reaver spec, it depends. Devour is nice early on, when 40 health per corpse actually means something. However, the higher your health gets, the less meaningful that is. The only way to make it more useful is to increase your Magic stat. The equipment set I gave above would get about 41 health per corpse. If you swap in the Helm of Honnleath, that jumps to 42 health. You'd need 2 or even 3 corpses late-game in order to get a sizable boost from it.
Frightening Appearance, on the other hand, is a solid skill. It's a long-duration Horror effect, which removes one enemy from the fight for the duration. The biggest issue is that the skill does it's Mental Resistance Check against the Warrior's Strength; since a Dual-Dagger Warrior would probably pump Dexterity, your Strength isn't going to be very high. If you prefer, you could pump Strength instead. What you would essentially be doing is losing your decreased chance to be hit (gotten by pumping Dexterity) to gain a higher chance of temporarily taking an enemy out of the fight. Frightening Appearance does have a relatively short cool-down, but whether the trade-off is worth it is up to you.
As for the other two skills, don't bother. Aura of Pain damage can't be reduced, so you're putting yourself in danger of dying with it. And the damage boost provided by Blood Frenzy can be gotten with Berserk with no need to keep your health dangerously low.
So if you're pumping Strength, Reaver is a solid choice thanks to Frightening Appearance. If you're not, then you're better off going with something else.
For a Dex-based DW Warrior, I'd probably go with Berserker/Champion. Berserker gives a solid damage boost, and Resilience adds a bonus to Health Regen while Berserk is active. And with Constraint, the penalty to Stamina Regen in combat is very low.
As for Champion, I'd only bother with the first skill (War Cry). Rally is nice, but the last I heard, it actually causes your Stamina to drain. In that case, I don't like it. If that's been fixed by a patch, then this would be my first Specialization, as the +10 Defense Rally provides fits right in with a Dex-based DW Warrior. As for War Cry, the skill essentially gives you +10 Defense against any affected enemy. However, Superiority does a Physical Resistance Check against your Strength attribute, so I wouldn't bother with it.
As for which weapon to put in your off-hand, it really doesn't matter much. With Dual-Weapon Training, the damage of the off-hand weapon is increased. It doesn't completely make up for the damage lost by having the weapon in the off-hand, but it's something. I'd personally put the weaker weapon in the off-hand, so that I lose less damage overall.
As for the Reaver spec, it depends. Devour is nice early on, when 40 health per corpse actually means something. However, the higher your health gets, the less meaningful that is. The only way to make it more useful is to increase your Magic stat. The equipment set I gave above would get about 41 health per corpse. If you swap in the Helm of Honnleath, that jumps to 42 health. You'd need 2 or even 3 corpses late-game in order to get a sizable boost from it.
Frightening Appearance, on the other hand, is a solid skill. It's a long-duration Horror effect, which removes one enemy from the fight for the duration. The biggest issue is that the skill does it's Mental Resistance Check against the Warrior's Strength; since a Dual-Dagger Warrior would probably pump Dexterity, your Strength isn't going to be very high. If you prefer, you could pump Strength instead. What you would essentially be doing is losing your decreased chance to be hit (gotten by pumping Dexterity) to gain a higher chance of temporarily taking an enemy out of the fight. Frightening Appearance does have a relatively short cool-down, but whether the trade-off is worth it is up to you.
As for the other two skills, don't bother. Aura of Pain damage can't be reduced, so you're putting yourself in danger of dying with it. And the damage boost provided by Blood Frenzy can be gotten with Berserk with no need to keep your health dangerously low.
So if you're pumping Strength, Reaver is a solid choice thanks to Frightening Appearance. If you're not, then you're better off going with something else.
For a Dex-based DW Warrior, I'd probably go with Berserker/Champion. Berserker gives a solid damage boost, and Resilience adds a bonus to Health Regen while Berserk is active. And with Constraint, the penalty to Stamina Regen in combat is very low.
As for Champion, I'd only bother with the first skill (War Cry). Rally is nice, but the last I heard, it actually causes your Stamina to drain. In that case, I don't like it. If that's been fixed by a patch, then this would be my first Specialization, as the +10 Defense Rally provides fits right in with a Dex-based DW Warrior. As for War Cry, the skill essentially gives you +10 Defense against any affected enemy. However, Superiority does a Physical Resistance Check against your Strength attribute, so I wouldn't bother with it.
#12
Posté 04 juillet 2010 - 04:50
soteria
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As for Champion, I'd only bother with the first skill (War Cry). Rally is nice, but the last I heard, it actually causes your Stamina to drain. In that case, I don't like it. If that's been fixed by a patch, then this would be my first Specialization, as the +10 Defense Rally provides fits right in with a Dex-based DW Warrior. As for War Cry, the skill essentially gives you +10 Defense against any affected enemy. However, Superiority does a Physical Resistance Check against your Strength attribute, so I wouldn't bother with it.
The entire Champion spec is great. Rally does *not* drain stamina, but it does give +10 attack/defense, and I've had good luck with Superiority, even with a dex archer.
You're also underplaying the strengths of the Templar spec. Holy Smite is an excellent instant ranged aoe stun/knockdown, Cleanse Area can be a lifesaver, and the bonuses to mental resist are nothing to sniff at. The ability to wear highly magical resistant armor is icing.
#13
Posté 04 juillet 2010 - 05:26
swk3000
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There was an entry on the Wikia that stated that it drained Stamina, even though the tooltip didn't say anything about it. I wasn't sure if that had been fixed.
As for Templar, here are my issues with the talents:
Righteous Strike - Not a bad skill, but I'd rather have a dead mage than one with no mana.
Cleanse Area - A nice skill for a party, but the skill doesn't work on the user, so it's not quite as useful as it might seem at first.
Mental Fortress - Nice, but how many abilities are there that do a Mental Resistance Check? Without taking Specialization skills into account (as enemies having them is very rare), you have a grand total of 3: Horror, Sleep, and Waking Nightmare.
Holy Smite - Both the Knockdown and Stun effects do Physical Resistance Checks against the user's Willpower. Since we're not pumping Willpower at all, the chances of enemies failing these Resistance Checks is very low.
To me, the only thing that redeems the Templar spec is the Knight-Commander Plate.
As for Templar, here are my issues with the talents:
Righteous Strike - Not a bad skill, but I'd rather have a dead mage than one with no mana.
Cleanse Area - A nice skill for a party, but the skill doesn't work on the user, so it's not quite as useful as it might seem at first.
Mental Fortress - Nice, but how many abilities are there that do a Mental Resistance Check? Without taking Specialization skills into account (as enemies having them is very rare), you have a grand total of 3: Horror, Sleep, and Waking Nightmare.
Holy Smite - Both the Knockdown and Stun effects do Physical Resistance Checks against the user's Willpower. Since we're not pumping Willpower at all, the chances of enemies failing these Resistance Checks is very low.
To me, the only thing that redeems the Templar spec is the Knight-Commander Plate.
#14
Posté 04 juillet 2010 - 05:33
soteria
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With respect, the wiki can say whatever it wants about physical resistance checks and willpower, but personal experience tells me that holy smite works fine at base willpower, even against warriors. The same can be said for warcry + superiority. Cleanse area doesn't need to work on the user, since you can't get yourself out of crushing prison anyway, and curse of mortality isn't *that* dangerous. I like the templar spec and I don't normally even wear the armor.
The wiki says a lot of things with varying shades of accuracy. I like it for confirming details without having to load up my game, but I don't find it terribly useful for researching things I haven't tried myself.
The wiki says a lot of things with varying shades of accuracy. I like it for confirming details without having to load up my game, but I don't find it terribly useful for researching things I haven't tried myself.
#15
Posté 04 juillet 2010 - 05:51
swk3000
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It strikes me that if I had to take the time to test every little thing in the game myself, I wouldn't be spending a lot of time actually playing the game. Nor would I have much of a life. The Wiki is far more convenient.
As for the Templar spec, my main issue right now comes down to the fact that I'm on a solo run. I'd be wasting 4 Talent Points just to pick up a single skill. At least with Berserker or Champion, I'd be getting something out of those Talent Points.
As for the Templar spec, my main issue right now comes down to the fact that I'm on a solo run. I'd be wasting 4 Talent Points just to pick up a single skill. At least with Berserker or Champion, I'd be getting something out of those Talent Points.
#16
Posté 04 juillet 2010 - 06:01
soteria
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Sure, but he's not asking about making a solo warrior. He's asking about making a tank, which means he has a group. And that's ignoring the fact that templar and champion are both plenty popular with soloists already and that a warrior can easily max out all the talents he wants and more.
I'm not saying every little thing in the game should be tested by each player, but I am saying that offering advise based on the wiki in the absence of personal experience is... not something I would do.
I'm not saying every little thing in the game should be tested by each player, but I am saying that offering advise based on the wiki in the absence of personal experience is... not something I would do.
Modifié par soteria, 04 juillet 2010 - 06:03 .
#17
Posté 04 juillet 2010 - 06:10
swk3000
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soteria wrote...
Sure, but he's not asking about making a solo warrior. He's asking about making a tank, which means he has a group.
True enough.
I'm not saying every little thing in the game should be tested by each player, but I am saying that offering advise based on the wiki in the absence of personal experience is... not something I would do.
I fail to see any alternative. Either I offer Wiki-based advice with the understanding that anyone who reads my advice knows to take it with a grain of salt, or I don't even bother coming to the boards, as I really have nothing to offer outside of a couple of play styles. I don't play 20 different characters at once like everyone else seems to. Does that make my advice completely worthless? I'd like to think not.
#18
Posté 04 juillet 2010 - 06:33
Loc'n'lol
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soteria wrote...
The entire Champion spec is great. Rally does *not* drain stamina
Yes, yes it does. It drains 2 stamina per tick, which is offset by the base stamina regen of 1, whatever gear you are carrying and other bonus, of course.
#19
Posté 04 juillet 2010 - 07:27
beancounter501
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Sorry Soteria - Rally does drain stamina. But it is still worth it. Any warrior class can make a decent tank. Some better then others. The best is the Dex S&S. Second best is a str S&S. After that It would be a toss up between a Dex Archer and a Dex Dual Weld. Two hands have Indomitable which is good, but your low dex makes you hit like a grandma.
Best tank Spec is Champion. War Cry after Superiorty is extremely good. Only thing better then Champion spec is having two warriors with Champion! Two champs can stop every single melee monster for almost half the battle.
If you build your party right you do not *need* a tank. When every party member can go out and kill things fast it does not matter.
Best tank Spec is Champion. War Cry after Superiorty is extremely good. Only thing better then Champion spec is having two warriors with Champion! Two champs can stop every single melee monster for almost half the battle.
If you build your party right you do not *need* a tank. When every party member can go out and kill things fast it does not matter.
Modifié par beancounter501, 04 juillet 2010 - 07:28 .
#20
Posté 04 juillet 2010 - 07:39
swk3000
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beancounter501 wrote...
but your low dex makes you hit like a grandma.
Beancounter, I apologize in advance, but you're a friggin moron! As is everyone else around here! If you'd bother to read the tooltips, you'd know that +1 Strength = +1 Dexterity when it comes to Attack. The difference is what else you get. With Strength, you get more damage dealt, and with Dexterity, you get a reduced chance of getting hit. It's literally a choice between Offense and Defense.
I'm tired of everyone saying Dexterity is the only thing that determines your Attack stat, when it's Dexterity AND STRENGTH that determines it. Why do you think Two-Handed Warriors always pump Strength and nothing else? Because it increases their damage output AND THEIR ATTACK STAT!
Beancounter, this isn't an attack on you personally, and I apologize. You just happened to hit one of my pet peeves. I don't actually think badly of you at all.
#21
Posté 04 juillet 2010 - 07:40
soteria
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Well, even I am not arrogant enough to argue with all three of you about it. Watching some videos I can't find any evidence for or against the stamina drain.
#22
Posté 04 juillet 2010 - 07:51
swk3000
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soteria wrote...
Well, even I am not arrogant enough to argue with all three of you about it. Watching some videos I can't find any evidence for or against the stamina drain.
Sorry. I'm not trying to call you a liar. Tell you what, though. I'll fire up Awakening and make an Orlesian Warrior and see what happens to my Stamina.
#23
Posté 04 juillet 2010 - 07:52
BroBear Berbil
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Pump dexterity and equip/rune physical resistance and I don't see why not.
#24
Posté 04 juillet 2010 - 07:55
Yamo425
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Thanks again people. The difference of opinion here is very productive and is helping me plan out my guy.
#25
Posté 04 juillet 2010 - 08:05
swk3000
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Well, unless Awakening gets fixes that the original game doesn't, then Soteria is correct and I'm wrong. Rally does not drain Stamina. I tested this by firing up Awakening and creating a new Orlesian Grey Warden. I made sure that none of his equipment gave any Combat Stamina Regen, then turned on Rally. During battle, I used one Talent (Riposte, just because it was already in the shortcuts), then let Auto-Attack do the rest. On Nightmare difficulty, Stamina regenerated normally. I even turned off Rally to compare the rates.
Soteria, you were right and I was wrong. It's good to know that I can take Champion and make full use of Rally. It's a solid ability, and I'll be glad to have it.
Soteria, you were right and I was wrong. It's good to know that I can take Champion and make full use of Rally. It's a solid ability, and I'll be glad to have it.
