58 réponses à ce sujet

[Syntax42]

From what I can tell, most of the design of this game goes against having a rogue in your party.  It is good to have one, but only when you need to deal with traps or unlock things.  From using armor and weapons, to the actual damage they deal, it just seems like they forgot about Rogues while they made this game. 

I have beaten the game with my main character getting to level 21.  My party makeup was myself as a Rogue, Allister, Morrigan, and Wynne.  I felt like my Rogue was very weak until about level 15 or so, when I finally did more DPS than everyone else in my party, combined.


-----Stats-----
Lets compare stat focuses for Warriors and Rogues.  If a Warrior is to be a tank or a DPS character, he pumps 42 points into strength, about 30 in dexterity (depending on role), and puts the rest in constitution.  A few points may go into willpower or magic, but for the most part, the Warrior only needs three stats.  The Rogue needs 20 in strength to wear the best leather/studded in the game, 36 dexterity for Rogue abilities, as much cunning as possible for backstab damage, and constitution for HP.  Rogues do not get more stat points than Warriors, but they need to put points into more things just to perform well.

Putting points into strength for damage makes sense for a Warrior.  Rogues have to put points into it just to equip armor.  They don't get any other benefit from strength, unless they ignore cunning completely.  In that case, they would just be a Warrior with very low lockpicking skill.

Dexterity increases your defense, but not significantly enough for Rogues to dodge-tank.  Allister had almost the same defense value with a shield as my Rogue did without one.  Basically, my Rogue was squishy and weak for the first 15ish levels of the game.

Cunning is absolutely necessary to maximize as a Rogue.  Your backstab damage is increased by it if you choose Assassin.  Your regular hits use cunning instead of strength with a single talent.  You need cunning to be able to pick locks on chests, stealth, and persuade NPCs.  If you think you can skip or skimp on cunning, you may as well make a Warrior.


-----Weapons-----
The top dual wield feat allows you to equip a main-hand weapon in your off-hand slot.  All daggers are one-handed weapons, so you don't need that talent for daggers.  One-handed swords require more than 30 strength for tier 7 weapons, so you would have to sacrifice a stat to gain any benefit from this talent.  As stated above, reducing any stats would almost gimp your rogue.

Dagger damage is significantly lower than sword damage.  If I remember correctly, my best dagger was about 6.4 damage while swords went up to 9.  Armor penetration was better on the dagger, but the "Strength Contribution" was 0.85 for daggers instead of 1.00 for swords.  I assume this mechanic applied the same way for a character with the cunning damage feat.  I was using my family sword (obtained before leaving with Duncan) until around level 10 when I finally found good daggers with +backstab damage.

Special Rogue daggers were very hard to find.  I found plenty of custom two-handed weapons.  One-handed weapons were more rare, but I found several.  I only found five custom daggers in the game, and two of those were duplicates, but with a different tier of materials.  If you want to know, the daggers I found were two Crow daggers, Olaf's Cheese Knife, a tier 7 dagger from a merchant in the dwarf city, and a dagger that looked like an axe from the Arl in the basement in Denerim (can't remember his name).


-----Armor-----
Again, strength was a silly choice for the requirement to wear leather and studded armors.  You have to pump it up to 20 to wear the tier 7 armor.  Dexterity would have made sense for the requirement.

Custom leather or studded was very rare.  I didn't have problems finding plate for Allister.  While Mage armor was even more rare, they didn't need it as much as the rogue who takes melee hits when Allister's taunt was down.

Custom graphics for Rogue armor seemed nonexistent or to the point where they didn't put any effort into them.  The different plate armors looked great and had varied graphics.  Low-level armor for Allister looked like it was mostly chain, while the higher level stuff made him look almost invincible.  The graphics on the Dragon Plate were great.  I was always impressed with the way Allister's armor looked every time I upgraded him to a new set.  Unfortunately, my Rogue's final set of armor looked like every set I had before.


-----What worked for me-----
In short, I pumped up my cunning, got the Momentum feat from Dual Wield, and got the feats from Assassin and Rogue that improve damage based on cunning.  I had great daggers with +backstab damage.  I manually controlled Allister to taunt everything so I could backstab things without getting aggro.  Towards the end of the game, if I could backstab non-stop, I would kill more critters in a pack than my mages and Allister could.


-----Conclusion-----
The game mechanics are anti-Rogue.  Stat requirements for key talents and stat requirements on armor and weapons are different, forcing the Rogue to put points where they don't provide any benefit.  Armor and weapons for Rogues are lacking until you get tier 7 stuff.  Even the classic idea of a rogue sneaking around and backstabbing something to kill it is flawed in this game.  You are outnumbered and your backstab won't even take your enemy below half health.

[On_Slaught]

The only point I agree on is our inability to use nicer swords/maces because of the str requirements.



However I think our class is VERY good at what it does. The trick is not running with your main char but rather the tank. If you run in with your tank first and throw off a taunt (and if your rogue has hostility reducing gear it makes this easier), and you literally move from one mob to the other BSing them to death. It's very fast and effective.



Imo, we are the best dps in the game considering how fast mages run OOM and the fact so often mages are relegated to healers.

[kekvitirae]

Don't forget that rogues have an "OH MY GOD, GET ME OUT OF HERE!" button that is a lifesaver in battle: Stealth.

Pump it up to level 3, and it's more effective than any warrior taunt skill at drawing heat away from your rogue. The only thing you cant hide from are reds and (sometimes) oranges, but level 4 stealth helps with that.

[Syntax42]

Yes, that strategy works the best and it is what I used. I feel like my rogue didn't do more damage than the tank until after level 10 or so, though. You need the right weapons, stats, and feats to make it work, but eventually you will be dropping bosses like its nothing.

[On_Slaught]

Don't forget feign death. A life-saver.

The easiest "super" weapon to get is the Starfang. It's based on a random encounter made if you have the Wardens keep DLC pack. You collect the meteor material and give it to the smith at hte keep and you get one of the best swords in the game. The problem? Requires 31 str. A **** to get for a rogue.

If you have the Shale DLC there is a very nice dagger you can get just by killing a few darkspawn. Near Shales position in the middle of town is a dead townsperson who has a key on them. That key opens a chest back near the ent to the town with a nice multi-rune dagger.

Modifié par On_Slaught, 10 novembre 2009 - 02:44 .

[Syntax42]

Memtndude wrote...

I would have to disagree with not getting anything out of strength. Apparently you get .5 points of DMG per point of STR or DEX. So adding a point of STR gives the same benefit to damage as DEX. This doesn't do anything harmful to your character to ignore DEX a few levels to get more STR for requirements of skills/armor.

The way I read the feat that uses cunning for damage, it ignores strength if your cunning is higher.  I could be wrong.  It would require some testing which can be done easily with console commands.  I will report back here if I am wrong.

[On_Slaught]

Memtndude wrote...

I would have to disagree with not getting anything out of strength. Apparently you get .5 points of DMG per point of STR or DEX. So adding a point of STR gives the same benefit to damage as DEX. This doesn't do anything harmful to your character to ignore DEX a few levels to get more STR for requirements of skills/armor.

The problem is a lot of rogues get lethality on the way to tier 4 which negates the use for stacking str since you need cunning for sure + cunning can replace it. It's not a major issue tho... just get enough cunning for stealth, coercison etc.

Modifié par On_Slaught, 10 novembre 2009 - 02:48 .

[Archfiend]

i heard dagger damage was gimped (bug uses str instead of 50/50 dex/str like its supposed to) if thats true the is a large source of the problem. what it seems rogues need is a talent like arcane warrior where magic=str in terms of stat requirments.

[On_Slaught]

Archfiend wrote...

i heard dagger damage was gimped (bug uses str instead of 50/50 dex/str like its supposed to) if thats true the is a large source of the problem. what it seems rogues need is a talent like arcane warrior where magic=str in terms of stat requirments.

They do. However the MAJOR problem is that unlike the Arcane warrior ability, the cunning only replaces the DMG MODIFIER part of str, NOT the req for wearing armor and using weapons.

Basically, you're still forced to stack str to wear decent armor and especially for good swords. This is only useful if you only want to DW daggers since lethatlity will give them the str dmg (especially if it's bugged and only going off str).

[Archfiend]

On_Slaught wrote...

Archfiend wrote...

i heard dagger damage was gimped (bug uses str instead of 50/50 dex/str like its supposed to) if thats true the is a large source of the problem. what it seems rogues need is a talent like arcane warrior where magic=str in terms of stat requirments.

They do. However the MAJOR problem is that unlike the Arcane warrior ability, the cunning only replaces the DMG MODIFIER part of str, NOT the req for wearing armor and using weapons.

Basically, you're still forced to stack str to wear decent armor and especially for good swords. This is only useful if you only want to DW daggers since lethatlity will give them the str dmg (especially if it's bugged and only going off str).

thats what i mean the AW talent provides both, stat for items as well as attack for damage. although i didnt really need the stat for armor as some mage robes have actually pretty high defense bonuses on them. the should change the talent to reflect the AW one to allow rogues more choices.

[On_Slaught]

I guess the reasoning is it's ok for a Mage to be in full juggernaut but not a rogue.

[II Relics II]

Perhaps some the next patch will address this issue? I definitely agree with Str problem, I am sure somebody can come up with a reasonable resolution for this.

[ITSSEXYTIME]

First of all, assuming that Rogue's don't need Strength and that by getting strength they would be bad at lock picking is a mistake. I managed to upgrade my Strength, Dexterity and Cunning just fine. Granted late game I was lacking Stamina but I could pick any lock, was adept in Stealth and did much more DPS than any of my party members while also retaining the ability to instantly swap between melee and ranged. By the end of the game I could very well equip blood dragon armour and while you're correct in your assessment that this makes you little more than a fragile warrior you still retain your awesome Rogue abilities such as Dirty Fighting, Lockpicking and Backstabbing. With Coup De Grace you'll do significantly amounts of damage especially if you aquire abilities such as Riposte. Additionally, the ability to specialize in Duelist/Assassin allows you to do significantly more damage than any other class except for Mage's, but even then you are by far the best at 1-1 combat.



Basically by the time I beat the game I was dual wielding enchanted axe's, using my bow to pull enemies and was a master of lockpicking and did significantly more DPS than any of my party members including Beserkers.



Rogue's are a great class, and they're the DPS of your party, Warriors are the tanks for support (Champion/Templar abilities are best) and Mages are crowd control. (Cone of Cold, AoE Stuns, Forcefield/Crushing Prison)

[On_Slaught]

Momentum is the best mode in the game.

[Syntax42]

I guess it would be safe to say this imbalance mostly affects early game (levels 1-10) than it does late game. By the time you get to 15, you have distributed enough stat points to equip what you want and do more damage than everyone else in your party combined.



Itssexytime, you had to sacrifice at least one stat to get high strength. If you left your cunning low (around 20) you could still max lockpicking, but your backstabs wouldn't hit as hard as they could if you are an assassin with the backstab+cunning damage feat.

[ITSSEXYTIME]

Syntax42 wrote...

I guess it would be safe to say this imbalance mostly affects early game (levels 1-10) than it does late game. By the time you get to 15, you have distributed enough stat points to equip what you want and do more damage than everyone else in your party combined.

Itssexytime, you had to sacrifice at least one stat to get high strength. If you left your cunning low (around 20) you could still max lockpicking, but your backstabs wouldn't hit as hard as they could if you are an assassin with the backstab+cunning damage feat.

http://social.biowar...&game=dragonage

As you can see there, my cunning was still fairly high (34)

The main stats that suffered were of course constituion (which I didn't really need anyway) and Willpower (might have been nice but I unneccessary)

[On_Slaught]

Tbh I regret putting so many points in willpower. I really don't use too many abilities since my auto-attack dmg is significant and using abilities is simply time i'm not using backstab.

[Dungeon Raider]

As mentioned in another thread... Grandmaster Paralyze Rune... on a dagger (eg. Cheese Knife) plus the talent for more damage to immobile enemies plus Assassin talent bonuses = killing machine!

[Jassper]

I don't know, I started doing very well with my rogue at about level 7.

I ignored str and pumped up Dex and Cunning.



I don't want heavy armor - I went with the light stuff so when BSing, I would hit 3 to 4 times that of my tanks. The lighter the armor the faster you are and the high Dex keeps me from getting hit.



In most battles when the last mob fell I would be at full health while my tanks were almost dead. In some occasions, this allowed me to finish the battle if my tanks fell. I don't even give my tanks pots anymore. I keep them so if they fall I can keep myself alive to finish the battle - Dirty fighting then circle around to the rear for BSing until they turn around then I unleash a flurry of other talents that puts them down quickly. The light armor gives me about 4 att to there one.

[danien.grey]

Yes, after putting Grandmaster Paralyze Runes on my weapons for my rogue, having Coup de grâce, and reaching higher levels, I started pulling off ridiculous backstab dmg. *shrug* I felt it was a good tradeoff, being weaker in the early game and then exponentially becoming stronger.

[Adrigaar]

personally i think if daggers required cunning instead of strength (as surely with the shorter blade you must be more cunning in how you use it than simply bashing it in harder) and the light leather armours required dex instead of strength (as they are designed as an armour that maximises freedom of movement) then rogues wouldnt touch strength, maxing dex and cunning instead with a few points chucked towards constitution and willpower we would be combat gods which if you consider the fact that we also get to pickpocket, stealth, lockpick, and disarm traps both inside and outside of combat seems a little unfair as the other classes dont get any out of combat skills (although admittedly the pickpocket is a skill and universal it just never made sense to me that non-rogues would take it)

[azxel]

i kinda agree that the DPS dual wield rogues deal, feels somewhat lacking compared what Alistair does.

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

Rogues are a little bit underpowered, though fortunately nothing near as badly as in the BG and NWN games.

[stnick80]

I disagree. You just have to build the rogue differently than what most games would typically have you do. Many people stop putting points into strength at 20 because they wish to wear the best armor. This is a mistake. Should it be? No, not necessarily but in the current implementation it is. Right now at level 21 my character has 60 Strength with gear and around 50 Dex with gear. I stopped putting points into Dex at 36 so that I could master Duel Wield. My character is a powerhouse. In fact, I'm not sure there is a class that has more output. With all the duel wield talents rogues are insane. One important thing to remember though, is to stay away from daggers for the most part. I use one in my OH occasionally because of the stats but there are better options in swords and axes. With talents such as the punisher, flurry, riposte, whirlwind, duel-weapon sweep and momentum, rogues are quite a force to be reckoned with.



I forgot to mention that I didn't put any additional points into cunning. It is a waste unless you are going to be a support or utility rogue. Lockpicking is garbage in this game for some reason. Most locked chests aren't worth opening and stealth isn't all that. I instead opted for the squishy powerhouse and it is working well.