58 réponses à ce sujet

[jones0901]

rogues are not underpowered, just squishy. my guy deals, pump strength and dex, stop cunning around 20 (or lower if you dont care for lockpicks or bonuses to persuade. take dual wields and all stuns. Also, pick up as much of the archery as you can, especially arrow of slaying tree...stay back to start in boss fights and come in at the end to get the sweet fatality. its good especially vs dragons because you only have to focus on healing one person

[soteria]

If after level 15 your rogue is doing more damage than everyone else combined, I wouldn't call rogues neglected or underpowered. It actually sounds more like they're scaling too well. Right now I think all four of my party members are doing between 20-30% of the damage. That's at level 11, and I could probably be doing a lot more if I used my poisons more and got in better position.

[Lavitage]

*didn't read anything but the conclusion, ctrl+f'd flask, grenade and posion and found nothing*



Poison tree is the main source of offense for rogues. Flasks do excellent damage, have an AoE, ignore armor and defense, and cool down individually meaning that in tough fights you can rapidly spam them if you use a different type of flask each time. Components are reasonably priced and common (infinite for the acid ones - ruck in the deeproads has unlimited lifestones) And if you insist on carving up with melee you can coat your weapons.



Rogues do feel bad at combat with just a bow or melee combat but they have a much better option.

[Jassper]

Forgot to mention, Currently my Rogue is level 8 and I am doing 80 points BS - And don't forget the poison.

Modifié par Jassper, 10 novembre 2009 - 12:22 .

[Slainangel52]

My rogue is something like 49% of my group damage, rips things to shreds, I don't really see him as weak in any sense of the word. Never did really he's always been a nice damage dealer.

[MBirkhofer]

Theres a few things people need to consider.



Warriors can DW too. So when saying how effective DW rogue dps is, consider a warrior would do the same, partially better due to a few of the warrior passives, and being able to focus on str/dex/will more then a rogue, who presumably would need to find some way to get cunning in there too.

poison also isn't rogue only. Although, a warrior probably won't have the skill points to do so well.

Rogues do get more points.



and poisons/coatings/grenades should be considered when comparing to mages though.



A rogue doing 40%+ of your party damage is probably player controlled 100% of the time. My PC does of course. But she also is getting free stats from the fade, books, I'm controlling her for constant backstabs. You would get similar numbers from a pc mage.



Rogue stat accolation does feel very limiting. As a pc using books, and the fade its not so bad. Really we are only talking about 11 points in str. So 5 off your dex, 1 off your wp, and 5 off your cunning potential. This would be a bigger issue for Leliana, or Zevren then your PC likely.



Archer rogues have a ton of toggles, and high stamina actives, will and stamina use should be looked into for them. Its too restrictive really.



May of the DW abilties hit for each weapon with cooldowns, making attack speed irrelevent. This means the harder 1 hit value of swords is better then daggers. Swords are far better then daggers for whirlwind, dual weapon sweep for example.

Momentum is awesome.



I'm finding now, I can't get all the dw talents, as well as assassin/duelist, And i already gave up on stealth, feign death.

I suppose you aren't supposed to get them all. But I am thinking there are too many core rogue skills which eat up alot of your skill points.

[reddragon567]

I'm sorry, but Assassin/Duelist Duel Wield with lots of different poisons and some backstabs mixed with Haste.



Seriously. Just try it. Your Rogue will just demolish anything in his way.

[Vansen Elamber]

Personally I am loving playing my Rogue and other then the lack of good weapons with a lower str requirement I still think they are the most fun class to play. The one thing that bugs me is if I have Leliana with me and I try a chest and can't unlock it she always says, "Allow me to do that for you." and her lock picking is lower then mine is. Also my Rogue has the highest lock picking he can get, all 4 tiers, and there are still some chests that I get "insufficent skill" so how do I get enough skill for those chests?

[Zenthar Aseth]

MBirkhofer... Warriors can dual wield too BUT. Backstabs are a HUGE thing. Plus rogues get better specializations, to be honest... duelist and assassin are lots better for damaging than the warrior specs.



So, duelist+assassin+backstab (and rogues also get a stun from the Rogue tree.. that's 4 free "backstabs" right there... more if you dual wield daggers.

[MBirkhofer]

Vansen Elamber wrote...

Personally I am loving playing my Rogue and other then the lack of good weapons with a lower str requirement I still think they are the most fun class to play. The one thing that bugs me is if I have Leliana with me and I try a chest and can't unlock it she always says, "Allow me to do that for you." and her lock picking is lower then mine is. Also my Rogue has the highest lock picking he can get, all 4 tiers, and there are still some chests that I get "insufficent skill" so how do I get enough skill for those chests?

Cunning probably has a larger impact on lockpicking, then the trap skill itself does.

[stnick80]

Vansen Elamber wrote...

Personally I am loving playing my Rogue and other then the lack of good weapons with a lower str requirement I still think they are the most fun class to play. The one thing that bugs me is if I have Leliana with me and I try a chest and can't unlock it she always says, "Allow me to do that for you." and her lock picking is lower then mine is. Also my Rogue has the highest lock picking he can get, all 4 tiers, and there are still some chests that I get "insufficent skill" so how do I get enough skill for those chests?

I believe lockpicking, even after picking up all 4 tiers, still uses your cunning attribute to determinue success or failure.

Leilana constantly says that regardless of whether or not she can successfully pick it. 

That said, in my opinion, cunning is a wasted attribute even for rogues.  Lockpicking is garbage because even in that chest that requires 4th tier picking with a high cunning attribute, you'll get some crappy loot.  I ignore locked chests.  I believe they tried to make the game good for all players even without a rogue.  Bringing along a rogue affords your party some bonus but not essential loot. 

The only points I've put into cunning where the ones that I recieved from Essences in the Fade during the Circle of Magi quest.

[stnick80]

MBirkhofer wrote...

Theres a few things people need to consider.

Warriors can DW too. So when saying how effective DW rogue dps is, consider a warrior would do the same, partially better due to a few of the warrior passives, and being able to focus on str/dex/will more then a rogue, who presumably would need to find some way to get cunning in there too.
poison also isn't rogue only. Although, a warrior probably won't have the skill points to do so well.
Rogues do get more points.

and poisons/coatings/grenades should be considered when comparing to mages though.

A rogue doing 40%+ of your party damage is probably player controlled 100% of the time. My PC does of course. But she also is getting free stats from the fade, books, I'm controlling her for constant backstabs. You would get similar numbers from a pc mage.

Rogue stat accolation does feel very limiting. As a pc using books, and the fade its not so bad. Really we are only talking about 11 points in str. So 5 off your dex, 1 off your wp, and 5 off your cunning potential. This would be a bigger issue for Leliana, or Zevren then your PC likely.

Archer rogues have a ton of toggles, and high stamina actives, will and stamina use should be looked into for them. Its too restrictive really.

May of the DW abilties hit for each weapon with cooldowns, making attack speed irrelevent. This means the harder 1 hit value of swords is better then daggers. Swords are far better then daggers for whirlwind, dual weapon sweep for example.
Momentum is awesome.

I'm finding now, I can't get all the dw talents, as well as assassin/duelist, And i already gave up on stealth, feign death.
I suppose you aren't supposed to get them all. But I am thinking there are too many core rogue skills which eat up alot of your skill points.

WIth all the tomes and what not, you can get most of them in a single play through.  I've fully mastered Dual Wield talents, rogue talents, assassin talents, 2 points in stealth at level 21.  I took Duelist as a second specialization but i don't intend to use it for anything other than the bonus the specialization provides.  The first talent is a sustained talent that provides a bonus to attack and it isn't worth the upkeep if your going to use Momentum alot.  I expect at the end of this playthrough I will have fully mastered stealth.  I waited until I had nothing left to do with my points before throwing them into stealth because quite frankly, it isn't very good. 

I don't think a DW warrior is quite as good as a DW rogue who is talented for all melee combat and no utility.

The Assassination specialization when maxed out provides some insane bonues for the melee oriented rogue. 

A single punisher attack for me does around 150-200 damage, perhaps even more.  I can one shot most normal dark spawn on normal difficulty with this attack.  That is just one attack.  Add Flurry, whirlwind (if multiple mobs), riposte, dual-weapon sweep and the rogue is quite a force to be reckoned with.

At level 21, as I am talented, I contribute around 60-70 percent of my parties damage and my party can drop a Revenant in under 10 seconds. 

[Cl_Flushentityhero]

Lol, you goofs. Poison isn't a rogue skill.



Also, if an attribute the game claims is central to rogues and mostly useless to other classes is "wasted," then there's something wrong.

[Syntax42]

Vansen Elamber wrote...

That said, in my opinion, cunning is a wasted attribute even for rogues.  Lockpicking is garbage because even in that chest that requires 4th tier picking with a high cunning attribute, you'll get some crappy loot.  I ignore locked chests.  I believe they tried to make the game good for all players even without a rogue.  Bringing along a rogue affords your party some bonus but not essential loot. 

The only points I've put into cunning where the ones that I recieved from Essences in the Fade during the Circle of Magi quest.

What you are saying here is that rogues are not needed, which supports my main point.  The only thing rogues do that the other classes can not is pick locks.

Zenthar Aseth wrote...

MBirkhofer... Warriors can dual
wield too BUT. Backstabs are a HUGE thing. Plus rogues get better
specializations, to be honest... duelist and assassin are lots better
for damaging than the warrior specs.

So,
duelist+assassin+backstab (and rogues also get a stun from the Rogue
tree.. that's 4 free "backstabs" right there... more if you dual wield
daggers.

Warriors can backstab, too.  The angle of attack is smaller than a rogue with the proper feat and the damage will be less than an assassin with the feat that increases backstab damage based on cunning.  The strategy you use to get those backstabs in is up to you.  I prefer a tank to taunt everything so my rogue doesn't get aggro, ever.

Cl_Flushentityhero wrote...

Lol, you goofs. Poison isn't a rogue skill.

Also,
if an attribute the game claims is central to rogues and mostly useless
to other classes is "wasted," then there's something wrong.

Cunning is only useful for increasing dialogue options for non-rogues.  In most dialogues, intimidation is also an option.  So, yes, cunning is wasted on any non-rogue.


Many people who are posting here are only considering rogues above a certain level (usually around 10) when you need to remember how poorly they performed at low levels.  Sure, rogues are insane DPS monsters at high levels, but many of the game's feats and mechanics hinder this in some way that requires the player to work around the hinderance.  If this means you put points in strength to equip weapons and armor, you are working around a bad game mechanic.

[Fizzlin]

I looked back over screen shots that were from around level 8... and yea I've been dex dumping almost exclusively and I do just about the same amount of damage per swing at 20 that I did at level 8, something is just wrong about that. It's went up maybe 4 damage per swing, but thats because I've upgraded from Tier 5 to Tier 7, and then the rune slots are nice, but they are there for every weapon type.

[MBirkhofer]

Backstab is rogue only.

Any character can get a flanking bonus, but actual backstab damage bonus is rogue only.



I haven't tried it yet, but I hear good things about face stab rogues btw.

Face stab relies on coup de Grace. (which is backstabs on any stunned/paralyzed.)

There are several active stuns a rogue can get. And you can work with other npcs, like dog or warrior, or mage that have many stun options as well.

Or specifically, use stunning poisons.

Not having to worry about positioning, increasing your damage output largely.

[stnick80]

Syntax42 wrote...

stnick80 wrote...

That said, in my opinion, cunning is a wasted attribute even for rogues.  Lockpicking is garbage because even in that chest that requires 4th tier picking with a high cunning attribute, you'll get some crappy loot.  I ignore locked chests.  I believe they tried to make the game good for all players even without a rogue.  Bringing along a rogue affords your party some bonus but not essential loot. 

The only points I've put into cunning where the ones that I recieved from Essences in the Fade during the Circle of Magi quest.

Syntax42,

I'm not in disagreement that rogues aren't the way they should be.  They are not the combination of high-damage, squishy, and utililty class that they should have been in the initial implementation of the game.  There isn't much that can be done about that unless Bioware decides to patch them. 

I said this in an earlier post:

"Many people stop putting points into strength at 20 because they wish to wear the best armor. This is a mistake. Should it be? No, not necessarily but in the current implementation it is."

That said, there are work arounds that have been previously stated in early posts.  Is it a bandaid?  Yes,  I do believe so.  However, they can still have the highest, if not the highest, damage output in the game.   They are not weak at any level if initially treated like a DW warrior.  Start the game pumping the majority of your points into strength. 

I hope that Bioware patches dagger damage and rogue scaling in the future.  However, in the present, there are still ways to enjoy playing a rogue.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The way I see it, one shouldn't judge a class on its own, but rather what kind of support is has. All classes have weaknesses on their own.

The rogue is ultra efficient with the right support.



But yes, perhaps a small patch is in ordervis a vis the dagger damage.

[stnick80]

Fizzlin wrote...

I looked back over screen shots that were from around level 8... and yea I've been dex dumping almost exclusively and I do just about the same amount of damage per swing at 20 that I did at level 8, something is just wrong about that. It's went up maybe 4 damage per swing, but thats because I've upgraded from Tier 5 to Tier 7, and then the rune slots are nice, but they are there for every weapon type.

Dexterity isn't working as intended for daggers in the game.  Get it to 36 for the fourth tier of DW and the attack/dodge and put nothing else into it.  I believe there is a file out there that will rectify the issue.  I applied it and my damage went down because I had already figured out the issue so I never wasted points in dexterity.  I believe daggers are supposed to get 0.5 damage per STR and DEX attribute point.  They aren't recieving the 0.5 damage from Dexterity in the initial release.

I don't know all of my stats at the moment since my character hasn't updated in 6 days but I can tell you at level 21 with the gear I am wearing my Strength is 60 and my Dexterity is 50.  My gear provides a lot of dexterity bonuses.  I believe it is actually at 38 without bonuses.  My base damage for my MH is approximately 40 and my OH is approximately 40 as well.  My critical strike chance is right at 40 percent. My damage is so high that I often don't even bother with positioning.  Additionally, Coup-de-grace, which every respectable melee rogue  should have, provides rogues with a lot of opportunity to do oustanding damage regardless of position.

I ran into the exact same problem as you initially.  My rogue was awful because I was dex/cunning dumping because that is what I am used to.  I was doing 30 percent of my parties damage in the Origin and Ostagar missions.  I was highly upset with the output.  I started over and pumped strength up as my primary stat and my contribution went up to 50-60 percent during the initial quests.  Melee rogues need that initial strength to bridge the gap until they get they higher tier talents.  Once you can start getting the better talents, continue to invest in strength but also insure that your dexterity is approaching 36 by around level 10 or so for the 4th tier in DW. 

Good luck.

[Dmuse]

I have found rogues (at least mine) to be somewhat of an afterthought in the game engine in my opinion. Mind you, I have gone nearly all dex and cunning for my rogue and wanted to create an 'access' rogue where I could gain access to lots of conversation (via persuade) and areas/loot via lockpicking. So far, lockpicking as been a bust. As stnick80 mentioned, it's generally crap loot. There was only one time that lockpicking really helped in my opinion, and even then it only allowed me to get the loot of a mob before actually killing the mob and getting the key for the room the loot was in. The loot may have helped beat the mob -- but only in a very minor way.



Lockpicking has gotten me into an area or two that you could not get into otherwise, but again, it is just for some crap loot and some coin. Perhaps there is more that will be availiable later - but I'm not encouraged to continue trying to use it really.



Persuade however I feel has been very effective. Lots of options have been presented and tasks handled differently than they would have without it.



As for combat, even though I'm not a combat focused rogue, I've handled combat fairly well. I have taken one Stealth just to be able to open doors and the like, only to take the initial shot and run the enemies back to my party's awaiting ambush. Coup de Grace has been my major 'win' factor, being able to stun or freeze enemies and deal decent damage. Also focusing on crit % so that I can get shatters to happen on normal attacks as well. So far I haven't had a problem with it.



Seeing as I'm playing on hard and still able to manage with a non-combat focused rogue, I don't see how they are 'underpowered' but I do see how they might be overlooked overall as far as the game goes.



[I'm playing a typical party formation of 1 tank, 1 rogue, 1 caster, 1 healer]

[Zenthar Aseth]

MBirkhofer wrote...

Backstab is rogue only.
Any character can get a flanking bonus, but actual backstab damage bonus is rogue only.

I haven't tried it yet, but I hear good things about face stab rogues btw.
Face stab relies on coup de Grace. (which is backstabs on any stunned/paralyzed.)
There are several active stuns a rogue can get. And you can work with other npcs, like dog or warrior, or mage that have many stun options as well.
Or specifically, use stunning poisons.
Not having to worry about positioning, increasing your damage output largely.

Yes, exactly. Concentrated Deathroot extract (or something) + Momentum + Coup De Grace = the enemy is owned. Add in your other stuns (Riposte, Dirty fighting..) and the rogue is already the best 1v1 fighter.

[Zenthar Aseth]

Ohh god.. just got ambushed by Vartag (sp) and 4 royal guards... my party was staying far behind so I had to fight them alone.. they only hit me like two times so I was nearly full HP after it.. I think Duelist talents are to thank for some of that

[Prof_Wagstaff]

Extremely disappointed with Archery so far as a Rogue. I started out by pursuing the main Archery stats, but found I had to develop Dual Wield since targets take trivial comparative damage from longbow attacks. Too trivial to justify using it except for a few opening shots. With bonuses Dex 32, Str 22, lvl 9. Probably going Duelist.



Does Archery ever do decent damage? As usual Bioware left out an Archery Specialization and most buff powers in DO are flagged, "Melee-Only".

[Ekyri]

My rogue turned out ok when I reached higher levels. However, grouping with Champions using Rally really pissed me off, as it breaks my stealth.

[Riot Inducer]

stnick80 wrote...
Dexterity isn't working as intended for daggers in the game.  Get it to 36 for the fourth tier of DW and the attack/dodge and put nothing else into it.  I believe there is a file out there that will rectify the issue.  I applied it and my damage went down because I had already figured out the issue so I never wasted points in dexterity.  I believe daggers are supposed to get 0.5 damage per STR and DEX attribute point.  They aren't recieving the 0.5 damage from Dexterity in the initial release.

Would you happen to know where we could find this file? Did a small search but so far nothing. 

At any rage I think the biggest problem  rogues have is the fact that they can benefit from almost all the attributes so no matter what you do you have to sacrifice points in one attribute or another whereas a warrior or mage could drop all their points into 2 or 3 main attributes and never have to think about it because they simply don't have any use for the others. In a way rogues are much more about what attributes you choose instead of what abilities/spells you choose.