329 réponses à ce sujet

[Poetricks]

[didymos1120]

Poetricks wrote...

What remaining colonists? 

[Poetricks]

didymos1120 wrote...

Poetricks wrote...

What remaining colonists? 

That last base in game where you do suicide mission

[smudboy]

didymos1120 wrote...
Well, the "analysis, observations, and conclusions" are all essentially a giant pile of complaints.  You repeat them nigh-ceaselessly, and have been doing so for months.  You even made an hour long Youtube series that's just you singing that same old song. 

And the pile of complaints are a combination of analysis, observations, and conclusions.  That's what arguments are.

If ME2 had a great plot, I'd still have a pile of analysis, observations and conclusions.  And maybe I'd still be here, singing the same old song.

And this comes down to "so?"  Other people have been here as long and have said similar things, positive and negative.  What's your beef?   If you don't like what I have to say, stop listening.  If you disagree, have an argument.  Let's see if you can...nope, you can't.

Using my handy subscription to the OED, I find:

whine, v.
2. To utter complaints in a low querulous tone; to complain in a feeble, mean, or undignified way.

That bit after the semicolon seems the most relevant, so let's go with that. Now, there's just really no way to say you've been particularly dignified in your tenure here. So, yeah: that's pretty much it. You've satisfied one of the criteria: undignified complaining. 

It's official:  you are whining.

Now, I also happen to think the vast majority of your "analysis, observations, and conclusions" are also feeble and mean (mean as in "weak" or "of inferior quality"), but going into why I do isn't necessary, so I won't.  Feel free to complain about that.

My arguments are pretty solid.  I've yet to meet anyone who can take them apart: frankly no one's tried.  Il Divo pretty mcuh agrees with me, but has minor issues and differences of opinions on things.  It's when people do not address my arguyments, and just make non-sequiturs, or turn this place into 4chan: I simply poke right back.  I call this fair game.  If they can't argue, that's what they're gonna get.  Look at Il Divo.  He has arguments.  I am responding to those arguments.  He believes differently than I.  This is acceptable.  If I'm a whiner, then he's also one.

What you've done is not arguing.  You're rationalizing I'm whining.  Because in your world, "analysis, observations and conclusions" = whining.

Go ahead and watch my videos.  Write down the stuff you don't agree with, and argue it.  It's that simple.   I promise you I'll give you the time of day and be as right and proper as you deserve to be.

If not, well, I don't really care.  And please: shut up.  If you have no point to make, you're not writing anything of any value.

Else you're just one of the masses who looks at dissenting opinion in disdain, without bothering to understand.

"Why? Why do they refuse to understand!? Ignorant fools! Sheep!"

Don't mistake me though:  go right ahead.  You just keep on whining as long you want. 

I frankly don't care if you refuse or agree on anything I express.

Thanks.  I'll keep on "whining" then.  The same way Ecael will keep on Photoshopping, and Zulu will keep coming up with crazy-creative ideas, and everyone else who wants to post something, will do just that.

*goes to do something else that doesn't involve wasting 10 minutess of his life.*

[FlyinElk212]

didymos1120 wrote...

whine, v.
2. To utter complaints in a low querulous tone; to complain in a feeble, mean, or undignified way.

Not to side with Smudboy or anything, but your response to Smuddy was a pretty undignified way to approach the situation...

It's one thing to not care for a person for their opinions. It's another to be the better man and simply ignore those people.

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 11 juillet 2010 - 01:06 .

[pvt_java]

 Smudboy is not "whining", to do this he would have to be complaining, which he is not. He has analyzed the story and is presenting it's faults and weaknesses. 

[Zulu_DFA]

Poetricks wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Poetricks wrote...

What remaining colonists? 

That last base in game where you do suicide mission

THIS PLOT'S HOLE IS IRRELEVANT, SHEPARD

PLOTHOLES ARE AN ILLUSION, SHEPARD

ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL OF THIS PLOT

THIS PLOT MUST BE DISCARDED

ME2 IS YOUR ASCENSION THROUGH DESTRUCTION, SHEPARD

[ADLegend21]

pvt_java wrote...

 Smudboy is not "whining", to do this he would have to be complaining, which he is not. He has analyzed the story and is presenting it's faults and weaknesses. 

there's a difference between analyzing and nitpicking. that and it's inconsitent when he comes up with amillion excuses for Mass Effect 1 when he just bags on Mass Effect 2.

[pvt_java]

ADLegend21 wrote...

pvt_java wrote...

 Smudboy is not "whining", to do this he would have to be complaining, which he is not. He has analyzed the story and is presenting it's faults and weaknesses. 

there's a difference between analyzing and nitpicking. that and it's inconsitent when he comes up with amillion excuses for Mass Effect 1 when he just bags on Mass Effect 2.

Yes, he is nitpicking in certain cases, but his point is valid and he presents a much more thought out and well reasoned argument than you do. 

[InvaderErl]

ADLegend21 wrote...

pvt_java wrote...

 Smudboy is not "whining", to do this he would have to be complaining, which he is not. He has analyzed the story and is presenting it's faults and weaknesses. 

there's a difference between analyzing and nitpicking. that and it's inconsitent when he comes up with amillion excuses for Mass Effect 1 when he just bags on Mass Effect 2.

Absolutely correct.

ME1 relies on more than its own fair share of plot contrivances, leaps of logic and weak spots.

What's funny is a few weeks ago I thumbed through some pages of the old BW forum and you know what was interesting?

It was almost the exact same threads we have now but in relation to ME1 - complaints about illogical story, shooter reliant gameplay, not being RPG-y enough, badly designed cities, poor romances etc.

So I guess one shouldn't really be surprised that we're seeing all of it YET again.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 11 juillet 2010 - 02:12 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

I hate ME 2, its ruining Dragon Age

Or soemthing like that

Also I support plot holes for mass effects, like 80 of them

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 11 juillet 2010 - 02:06 .

[InvaderErl]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I hate ME 2, its ruining Dragon Age

Unless Garrus is in Dragon Age. Then its making it awesome-er.

[FlyinElk212]

InvaderErl wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I hate ME 2, its ruining Dragon Age

Unless Garrus is in Dragon Age. Then its making it awesome-er.

INSTANT WIN on Bioware if it happens.

In fact, screw it, lets get Wrex on board for DA2 too.

[smudboy]

ADLegend21 wrote...

pvt_java wrote...

 Smudboy is not "whining", to do this he would have to be complaining, which he is not. He has analyzed the story and is presenting it's faults and weaknesses. 

there's a difference between analyzing and nitpicking. that and it's inconsitent when he comes up with amillion excuses for Mass Effect 1 when he just bags on Mass Effect 2.

Excuse me, pardon me, sir: but I emplore you to please, quote me on ONE of my ME1 "excuses".  I have exclusively talked about ME2.  People have asked me questions on ME1 when compared, and I've responded.   I happen to think the writing in ME1 is great.  I think that's all I've really said, nor have I ever defended an ME1 plot hole.

It has been other people, who, like comparing ME1 to ME2, and what sucks, and what doesn't.  The only comparison I've made was the issue of ME2 being a proper sequel: the continuation of the ME1 plot, and how I do not believe it's an appropriate one.

I even added to the Ecael anti-plot hole extravaganza thread, pointing out a plot hole in ME1 (Tali's evidence and time from Eden Prime.)

Modifié par smudboy, 11 juillet 2010 - 04:19 .

[ADLegend21]

smudboy wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

pvt_java wrote...

 Smudboy is not "whining", to do this he would have to be complaining, which he is not. He has analyzed the story and is presenting it's faults and weaknesses. 

there's a difference between analyzing and nitpicking. that and it's inconsitent when he comes up with amillion excuses for Mass Effect 1 when he just bags on Mass Effect 2.

Excuse me, pardon me, sir: but I emplore you to please, quote me on ONE of my ME1 "excuses".  I have exclusively talked about ME2.  People have asked me questions on ME1 when compared, and I've responded.   I happen to think the writing in ME1 is great.  I think that's all I've really said, nor have I ever defended an ME1 plot hole.

It has been other people, who, like comparing ME1 to ME2, and what sucks, and what doesn't.  The only comparison I've made was the issue of ME2 being a proper sequel: the continuation of the ME1 plot, and how I do not believe it's an appropriate one.

I even added to the Ecael anti-plot hole extravaganza thread, pointing out a plot hole in ME1 (Tali's evidence and time from Eden Prime.)

the ONE plot hole you talk about. other than that ME1 is perfect plotwise, yet it's the Sequel that got equal ratings that sucks to you. Last I checked there was continuation of the mass effect plot, how the Mass effect universe has come out 2 years after the players heroic defeat of a reaper and it's agent and the journey to defeat a new threat. so yeah it's still a Sequel no matter what you think of the plot. just like Mass effect 3 wil be the sequel to mass effect 2.

[Zulu_DFA]

AND one more time:



Tali evidence is not a plot hole. It's the loading screen time contraction effect.

[didymos1120]

Poetricks wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Poetricks wrote...

What remaining colonists? 

That last base in game where you do suicide mission

Yeah, I know the where and when you were referring to, which is exactly why I asked "What remaining colonists?"  There basically weren't any.  Delay that mission even a little, and you'll find there aren't many of your freshly-abducted crew left either.

Even if you get there in time, they were already scheduled for imminent smoothification.  Yes, there is the one colonist lady that's still alive when you arrive.  She also dies about two seconds after that.  And, listen to Doc Chakwas: "The colonists were...processed. Those swarms of little robots, they--melted them into gray liquid and pumped it through these tubes"

So, again: what remaining colonists?

Modifié par didymos1120, 11 juillet 2010 - 05:28 .

[didymos1120]

FlyinElk212 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

whine, v.
2. To utter complaints in a low querulous tone; to complain in a feeble, mean, or undignified way.

Not to side with Smudboy or anything, but your response to Smuddy was a pretty undignified way to approach the situation...

OK.  I happen to agree: it was indeed a bit undignified.  Since I wasn't aiming for dignity, I'm not really concerned that I failed to achieve it. 

It's one thing to not care for a person for their opinions. It's another to be the better man and simply ignore those people.

Most of the time, I do ignore smud.  Somethmes, I just plain don't feel like it.  This isn't some smudboy-specific thing either. He's not a preferred target.  It applies to any poster that manages to get on my nerves, on whatever forum.  If that makes me somehow morally inferior, so be it. I think I can live with my failure on that score.  If it helps, it's out of my system now, and I'm back to ignore mode. 

[Poetricks]

didymos1120 wrote...

Poetricks wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Poetricks wrote...

What remaining colonists? 

That last base in game where you do suicide mission

Yeah, I know the where and when you were referring to, which is exactly why I asked "What remaining colonists?"  There basically weren't any.  Delay that mission even a little, and you'll find there aren't many of your freshly-abducted crew left either.

Even if you get there in time, they were already scheduled for imminent smoothification.  Yes, there is the one colonist lady that's still alive when you arrive.  She also dies about two seconds after that.  And, listen to Doc Chakwas: "The colonists were...processed. Those swarms of little robots, they--melted them into gray liquid and pumped it through these tubes"

So, again: what remaining colonists?

So you are telling me, that the 1 colonist woman was delayed from turning into slurpee AND placed with the normady crew members? Then she was turned into squish while Shepard and rest had time to save up the whole crew
Riiiighhhtttt......

It's amazing how people try to defend the plotholes.
I love ME too, but this is just sad how they let these things go, lazy writers

[Zulu_DFA]

Poetricks wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Poetricks wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Poetricks wrote...

What remaining colonists? 

That last base in game where you do suicide mission

Yeah, I know the where and when you were referring to, which is exactly why I asked "What remaining colonists?"  There basically weren't any.  Delay that mission even a little, and you'll find there aren't many of your freshly-abducted crew left either.

Even if you get there in time, they were already scheduled for imminent smoothification.  Yes, there is the one colonist lady that's still alive when you arrive.  She also dies about two seconds after that.  And, listen to Doc Chakwas: "The colonists were...processed. Those swarms of little robots, they--melted them into gray liquid and pumped it through these tubes"

So, again: what remaining colonists?

So you are telling me, that the 1 colonist woman was delayed from turning into slurpee AND placed with the normady crew members? Then she was turned into squish while Shepard and rest had time to save up the whole crew
Riiiighhhtttt......

It's amazing how people try to defend the plotholes.
I love ME too, but this is just sad how they let these things go, lazy writers

Especially when it somehow turns out that "Our mission was to destroy the base", in spite of the fact that just a couple of hours ago, when Shep was sweating with Miranda in the engine room, they had not a slightest clue whether it would be a base, or a planet, or a black hole.

Hence -

[Soverign 666]

Ok the problem smudboy mass effect is a TRILOGY mass effect 2 was game 2 a lot of the stuff you call plotholes could easily be explained in mass effect 3 so give the series a chance before you start calling every slight discrepnacy a plot hole

[didymos1120]

Poetricks wrote...
So you are telling me, that the 1 colonist woman was delayed from turning into slurpee AND placed with the normady crew members? Then she was turned into squish while Shepard and rest had time to save up the whole crew
Riiiighhhtttt......

It's amazing how people try to defend the plotholes.
I love ME too, but this is just sad how they let these things go, lazy writers

No. I'm telling you what the game tells (and shows) you.  It is what it is.  You may not like it, but the clear implication is that the colonists are no longer there to be saved.  You are always destined to fail in that regard.

This is not unusual in the least.  Consider:

Both Mass Effect games are rife with these sorts of providential arrivals.  You always get to the beacon right after Saren has used it on Eden Prime. You always show up before Liara is captured, no matter how long you wait.  You always arrive at Ilos right as Saren is entering the trench leading to the Conduit. Et cetera, ad nauseum.

You always arrive on Omega before the plauge kills Mordin and everyone else.  You always arrive on Haestrom in time to reach Tali before the geth can open that door. You always enter the core of the Derelict Reaper right before Legion is disabled by husks.  Et cetera, ad nauseum.

And, you always arrive just as the last colonist is being goopified, and that is always right before your crew begins to suffer the same fate.  The only difference in this case is that you have a very limited ability to influence the timing of your arrival.  Go immediately to Omega-4, and you will always get there just in time to save every member of your lost crew.  Do a few assignments too many, and you will always arrive too late to save anyone save Chakwas. 

Now, as to the other apparent convenience, the spatial one:

You were in the designated human storage area, which was helpfully pointed out as such during the pre-assault briefing on the Normandy.  Everybody  ended up there.  Now, think for a second:  you have a giant storage  area, and you put occupied pods in there as you get them.  It's rather likely that the first ones stored from a fresh group will end up next to the last people stored from the previous group.  Or does that just seem utterly outlandish to you?  Let's assume it does not.  OK, so, basically your crew was always going to be "conveniently" next to a colonist. They'll either fill up the rest of that row, or they'll be at the front of the next one down, or up, or whatever. As it turned out, this was an instance of "fill up the rest of the row."

Gripe about the convenience of it all if you like.  It's definitely rigged.  It's also a game, and a story-driven one to boot, so you should expect this sort of thing by now.  It's an old, old problem with story-driven games and it doesn't really have a good solution. It can be minimized, but not eliminated.  Regardless, there is no plothole with respect to saving the colonists:  They died. You were too late.  You will always be too late.

Modifié par didymos1120, 11 juillet 2010 - 07:18 .

[InvaderErl]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

AND one more time:

Tali evidence is not a plot hole. It's the loading screen time contraction effect.

And I'm the Queen of Antiva.

Sorry dude, its a plot hole, Smud's even said it. If you can point to ONE piece of evidence I'll be utterly impressed. UTTERLY IMPRESSED.

And no you can't say oh the fact that Tali arrived "several" days ago is evidence when that is in fact being pointed to AS the plothole - you are literally pulling this temporal spatial disturbance out of thin air.

Shepard acts like he recently arrived, Ashley/Kaiden act like they've recently arrived, Udina/Anderson act like  they've recently arrived.

And as for the "oh the game is only some kind of abstract representation of time. They were really doing quests for a week!", that is just so mind boggingly out of left field and desperate.

The only person who seems to be in doubt of this is YOU.

But maybe I'm wrong -  I'll keep my eyes open for a TARDIS during ME1 to account for this uh... time contraction event.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 11 juillet 2010 - 09:13 .

[Zulu_DFA]

InvaderErl wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

AND one more time:

Tali evidence is not a plot hole. It's the loading screen time contraction effect.

And I'm the Queen of Antiva.

 Can I have an autograph, pretty plz?

InvaderErl wrote...
Sorry dude, its a plot hole, Smud's even said it.

So what? He's wrong about it, and he is wrong about many ME2 "plotholes" that are just unexplained or poorly explained stuff or gameplay issues, or retarded artistic solutions. Even so, there are huge plotholes in ME2. With mice sitting in there and screaming at you in their mice language: CHEEZZZE!!!

InvaderErl wrote...
If you can point to ONE piece of evidence I'll be utterly impressed. UTTERLY IMPRESSED.

Sorry, dude. If you're blind, I can't prove to you that things are red, blue, green and of other colors.

InvaderErl wrote...
And no you can't say oh the fact that Tali arrived "several" days ago is evidence when that is in fact being pointed to AS the plothole - you are literally pulling this temporal spatial disturbance out of thin air.

You should have said "out of vacuum". I'd feel myself in trouble. Nevertheless it doesn't matter where I pull it from. The fact remains, that the assumption of "loading screen time contraction effect" provides a non-contradictory explanation to the Tali situation.

In any case you have to admit that the time gets contracted, even amid some of the conversations. Do you think that an "actual" meeting of the Council takes just 5 minutes? What you see real-time on-screen is more of a relayed via real life media version of the essence of what was happening in-game. Otherwise, it would take thousands of hours to play through such a game as Mass Effect.

Do you think Peak 15 is a 3-minute Mako ride away from Port Hanshan?

And when you admit just for one second that something like that may be the case, then bingo! The degree of the application of this "phenomenon" may be stretched as the logical necessity arises, until it contradicts some other logical necessity considerations (like it happens every now and then in ME2).

InvaderErl wrote...
Shepard acts like he recently arrived, Ashley/Kaiden act like they've recently arrived, Udina/Anderson act like  they've recently arrived.

"Recently" is indefinite enough a term for a "week" to fit in sometimes.

InvaderErl wrote...
And as for the "oh the game is only some kind of abstract representation of time. They were really doing quests for a week!", that is just so mind boggingly out of left field and desperate.

Nah. That's how games work. They wrap up stuff that'd take a week IRL into a nice and small 30-minute mission for you to enjoy while the shower is occupied.

InvaderErl wrote...
The only person who seems to be in doubt of this is YOU.

Wrong. The poster of this thead think so too. And before you go with "Oh, that makes just two of you" think of it this way: you' ll be wrong again.

InvaderErl wrote...
But maybe I'm wrong -  I'll keep my eyes open for a TARDIS during ME1 to account for this uh... time contraction event.

Good luck.

[InvaderErl]

Double posted* response on next page.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 11 juillet 2010 - 11:43 .