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[Christmas Ape]

didymos1120 wrote...

I'm wondering how you know this, since it seems you didn't really pay much attention to the events that occurred during said mission.

There is a certain contingent of negative voices who hold up their own lack of understanding or attentiveness as some sort of banner of pride. It's bewildering.

[smudboy]

Christmas Ape wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...
I'm wondering how you know this, since it seems you didn't really pay much attention to the events that occurred during said mission.

There is a certain contingent of negative voices who hold up their own lack of understanding or attentiveness as some sort of banner of pride. It's bewildering.

I think it's quite obvious the Suicide Mission barely followed any train of logical coherency.  Believe me, Zulu has wild ideas, but his observations are just as accurate as yours.  If it's so not bewildering to you, then maybe you could kindly explain how the choices make sense, the person's utility makes sense, how loyalty to Shepard is applicable let alone to a mental state, why we needed all these people, and why the Collectors are building a Human Reaper.

[Il Divo]

Well, I'm back from the dead as it were and ready to keep beating the proverbially dead horse.

Sounds like a good opportunity for character development.

The plot is whatever TIM says it is.  We're along for the ride.  If TIM wants us to go somewhere without him explaining it, then the plot is nonsensical.  Our main target is disabled out of nowhere and we farcically get trapped in it.  He pulls a dead Reaper out of his ass.  This is called throwing sh*t together.

The Collector Ship was never disabled. It was a very clear trap, one which Illusive Man knowingly sent us into. The fact that the ship is able to "come to life" indicates that it is not really disabled.

Now how did he pull a dead Reaper out of his ass? The universe is a big place. I don't find this any more or less contrived than how the Council didn't locate the Turian Hierarchy long before the Krogan Rebellions.

I do not find it contrived, that at the end of ones investigation, one finds something related to ones goal.  Pieces of a puzzle.

I would agree if we actually had a context for why Shepard thinks he's going to find anything useful to him. If you've ever played it, Planescape Torment is a great example of an investigation done well. Your character wakes up on a slab, no memory, with tatoos on his back telling him that a man named Pharod can explain everything. Ultimately you are led on a quest to discover your lost identity. Knights of the Old Republic is another example of this. Your character is looking for a Star Map he knows is on the planet, and he finds it on the planet.

The difference is that every element of these journey builds on the previous element. Not so with Mass Effect. Shepard has a treasure trove of different leads he can pursue which he completely ignores because the Alliance happened to find "Geth Reports", hardly the most logical of leads. He could have started with finding out how Fist contacted Saren, or the Shadow Broker who obviously is holding a grudge, or even better Tali! The useless party member could actually have a use. Shepard could have asked her where she found the Geth memory core, for example.

I don't see how this ultimately is much better or less contrived than Shepard's 'magical' landing on the Collector Base. His investigations go from "Geth Reports" to "critical objectives without which there is no success" in the last five minutes of his investigation.

I don't recall a discrepency where Spectres work in twos.

Codex entry explains that Spectres either work alone or in small groups with other Spectres. Nothing we are told by any character indicates that Spectres regularly command entire ships while taking along a random crew of Alliance personel to assist them. No one, not even the Council, comments on this oddity.

It's a plot hole becuase their top agent, Saren, killed Nihlus?  Sure buddy.
And because of that it's another plot hole since the Council didn't send their brand new human spectre with another?  Where are you getting this?

You don't find it odd that the Council sent their newest agent entirely alone to face Saren without even sending him with a more experienced Spectre? Especially when they could easily have just replaced Shepard in the investigation? Or that we are not ever given any exposition as to why they send Shepard alone?

The Council sees Saren as a rebel agent, stripped of rank and resources, desperate and on the run, out in the Terminus System/wherever.  The compromise is made to make Shepard a Spectre to chase after him.  The discussion seems pretty darned logical, despite their lack of believing in the Reapers, or mention of a Geth army.

Saren was their greatest agent. Alliance estimates put Spectre numbers below a hundred. That Saren was already #1 amongst such an elite pool demonstrates that he is not to be toyed with.Stripped of rank or not, Saren would still be considered a deadly threat. He's not some bounty target hiding out on Omega; he leads an army and a warship more advanced than anything they've ever seen and has the services of an Asari Matriarch at his command. If this does not call for using a Spectre more versed in such assignments or who's dealt with Saren before, I don't know what will.  

Shepard is The Chosen by the Alliance.  Shepard becomes a Spectre by the Council.  Shepard recommends himself to go after Saren, and the Council approves.

As far as the Council is concerned, Shepard is humanity's second attempt at being a Spectre.  One brand new capable Spectre hunting down a powerless one, stripped of rank and resources.  Sorry, it's pretty clear.

See above. If you honestly consider leading an army of Geth to make one powerless, I don't know how much farther we both can get in this discussion.  Even if we want to call it hubris on the part of the Council, Saren knows what he's searching for (the Conduit), already has several projects in the works, and is obviously making good progress towards completing his goal. This says to me very clearly the Council either a) needs multiple Spectres working in tandem or replacing Shepard completely with one who's actually handled Spectre-level assignments.

Saren is a person.  A character.  We can relate to his body language, outbursts, desires, motivations, etc.

Harbinger is a digitally transformed voice who talks smack.  A voice is not a character.  Compare that to Fallout 3's President John Henry Eden, or even more accurately, SHODAN.  It it that difficult to observe what's wrong here?

Yes, but I am intending to put the scene through the same scrutiny which we just put poor Harbinger through. You did admit that you "think" Harbinger is a Reaper, but the narrative did not make it clear. Saren being a character doesn't make a bit of difference to me when you consider species such as the Elcor which are incapable of demonstrating emotions. As of that cut-scene our only experience with Turians was Nihlus who seemed rather emotion-less. How can we justify Saren's odd-outburst when we don't at this point understand anything about his character?

[smudboy]

Now how did he pull a dead Reaper out of his ass? The universe is a big place. I don't find this any more or less contrived than how the Council didn't locate the Turian Hierarchy long before the Krogan Rebellions.

TIM: "The Reapers and Collector ships use an advanced identify friend foe system that the relay's recognize.  All we need to do is get our hands on one of those IFFs."
Shepard: "I'm guessing you have a plan."
TIM: "We have a science team working on a Derelict Reaper right now.  I need you to go pick up its IFF."

Totally believable.

I would agree if we actually had a context for why Shepard thinks he's going to find anything useful to him. If you've ever played it, Planescape Torment is a great example of an investigation done well. Your character wakes up on a slab, no memory, with tatoos on his back telling him that a man named Pharod can explain everything. Ultimately you are led on a quest to discover your lost identity. Knights of the Old Republic is another example of this. Your character is looking for a Star Map he knows is on the planet, and he finds it on the planet.

It's an investigation?  About where our enemy was or is, or was doing something to further their goals?  That we might get or discover something from that investigation?  We learn things as we go investigate them?  What, you think we'd find some overpaid parking tickets?

The difference is that every element of these journey builds on the previous element. Not so with Mass Effect. Shepard has a treasure trove of different leads he can pursue which he completely ignores because the Alliance happened to find "Geth Reports", hardly the most logical of leads. He could have started with finding out how Fist contacted Saren, or the Shadow Broker who obviously is holding a grudge, or even better Tali! The useless party member could actually have a use. Shepard could have asked her where she found the Geth memory core, for example.

Saying Tali is useless is like saying Mordin is useless.

So you don't like the leads we're given, but should take others?  Okay.  I don't see anything wrong with the ones given, but now you're arguing the validity of given info from the Galactic Leaders of Everything because there are potentially other, and in your case, better options.  Eh, I guess?

I don't see how this ultimately is much better or less contrived than Shepard's 'magical' landing on the Collector Base. His investigations go from "Geth Reports" to "critical objectives without which there is no success" in the last five minutes of his investigation.

"Get in close and finish them off!"
*kablooie*
"Look out!"
(Space is vast and infinite.)
Congratulations.  You've crash landed on the Collector Base without blowing up into a firey death.  Time for a land war in Asia.

The Council asked Shepard to go to Noveria.  You might think the Council is stupid, and that's fine.  Now I'm not against seeking help from other sources, but it's really not that big a deal nor can I see it as an issue of freedom, choice, or more reasonable or effective use of resources.  You've just been made a Spectre.  They want you to track down Saren.  They're giving you a lead toward that.  If you wanted a dynamic mission based system where subquests interacted with and changed the nature of the main mission, I might recommend Alpha Protocol.  As it stands, having the narrative give us 1) good cause, 2) orders from our new authority, 3) methods and reasons to achieve our goal, I am not seeing the argument.

Codex entry explains that Spectres either work alone or in small groups with other Spectres. Nothing we are told by any character indicates that Spectres regularly command entire ships while taking along a random crew of Alliance personel to assist them. No one, not even the Council, comments on this oddity.

I dismiss every Codex argument.  If the narrative doesn't explain why, it's not important, nor should I have to refer to it to explain plot essential information.  You might think you need/should get a Spectre, but only after reading the Codex.

You don't find it odd that the Council sent their newest agent entirely alone to face Saren without even sending him with a more experienced Spectre? Especially when they could easily have just replaced Shepard in the investigation? Or that we are not ever given any exposition as to why they send Shepard alone?

Nope, that was the deal.  Also, Shepard has proven capable.  It's time for humanity to prove themselves.  This is an ongoing theme in ME.  The Council sees Saren as on the run and powerless.

There is no need for explsition as to why they send Shepard alone.  Your codex-said-so argument is moot and subjective at best.

Saren was their greatest agent. Alliance estimates put Spectre numbers below a hundred. That Saren was already #1 amongst such an elite pool demonstrates that he is not to be toyed with.Stripped of rank or not, Saren would still be considered a deadly threat. He's not some bounty target hiding out on Omega; he leads an army and a warship more advanced than anything they've ever seen and has the services of an Asari Matriarch at his command. If this does not call for using a Spectre more versed in such assignments or who's dealt with Saren before, I don't know what will.  

"Saren was their greatest agent."  This is what they believe, sans geth army.  And as we all know, they're bureaucratic idiots.  This is not difficult to grasp.

Yadda yadda your subjective codex entry argument yadda.

See above. If you honestly consider leading an army of Geth to make one powerless, I don't know how much farther we both can get in this discussion.  Even if we want to call it hubris on the part of the Council, Saren knows what he's searching for (the Conduit), already has several projects in the works, and is obviously making good progress towards completing his goal. This says to me very clearly the Council either a) needs multiple Spectres working in tandem or replacing Shepard completely with one who's actually handled Spectre-level assignments.

The Council do not believe about the Reapers and are stupid/ignorant about the Geth Army.

Yes, I agree, the Council should've had more resources dedicated to this, but they're morons, and they've clearly explained their opinions on the matter.

Holy yadda yadda, give it a rest man.  Or start up a new thread on how you really feel Shepard should've been buddy buddy with a more experienced Spectre because the Codex said so.  Again I'm not against this idea, you're just not gonna get anything out of me about it: the narrative is clear about this.

Yes, but I am intending to put the scene through the same scrutiny which we just put poor Harbinger through. You did admit that you "think" Harbinger is a Reaper, but the narrative did not make it clear. Saren being a character doesn't make a bit of difference to me when you consider species such as the Elcor which are incapable of demonstrating emotions. As of that cut-scene our only experience with Turians was Nihlus who seemed rather emotion-less. How can we justify Saren's odd-outburst when we don't at this point understand anything about his character?

Because we can use Saren's outburst as a way of understanding his character? That he's prone to outbursts, maybe?

[Il Divo]

[quote]smudboy wrote...

TIM: "The Reapers and Collector ships use an advanced identify friend foe system that the relay's recognize.  All we need to do is get our hands on one of those IFFs."
Shepard: "I'm guessing you have a plan."
TIM: "We have a science team working on a Derelict Reaper right now.  I need you to go pick up its IFF."

Totally believable. [/quote]

So is this the actual dialogue or is creative license being employed? I don't recall the actual conversation myself.

[quote]
It's an investigation?  About where our enemy was or is, or was doing something to further their goals?  That we might get or discover something from that investigation?  We learn things as we go investigate them?  What, you think we'd find some overpaid parking tickets? [/quote]

Yes, yes, yes. That's exactly what I want. Mass Effect's drive to build a coherent conclusion is absolutely insane. Again, you're not given Liara who leads you to Benezia/Noveria who leads you to Feros. You're given four completely isolate leads, three of which consist of "There's Geth here", and all somehow are connected to the Prothean beacon.

Good example: After recruiting Liara, she briefly mentions the cipher and how it's necessary to understand the visions from the beacon. Great, Liara, thanks! Unfortunately we don't employ this as a lead; we don't start actively searching for it. Instead, we investigate one of our other (again, completely nonsensical) leads and happen to discover the Cipher which we need to stop Saren on Feros. Shepard does not operate under anything concrete in any of his investigations; he's flying blind and somehow finds everything he needs to stop Saren.

[quote]
Saying Tali is useless is like saying Mordin is useless.

So you don't like the leads we're given, but should take others?  Okay.  I don't see anything wrong with the ones given, but now you're arguing the validity of given info from the Galactic Leaders of Everything because there are potentially other, and in your case, better options.  Eh, I guess? [/quote]

Let's not build the Council's intel up to be better than it is. Their leads amount to nothing more than random coincidences. "Hey Shepard! Geth went to Feros! Not sure what you'll find, but it's gotta be good!" That's how the scene played out essentially. Lo and behold, Shepard finds exactly what he needs on Feros. Do that X4. That is what our investigations amounts to. We started with the vaguest of the vague leads and it all turned out to be essential. Compare this to if we had followed leads relating to Fist or Tali, which actually are leads and not vague suggestions, the plot would have benfitted from this. We could find out how Fist contacted Saren, and started from there. It's a concrete lead, unlike Geth invasions.

[quote]
"Get in close and finish them off!"
*kablooie*
"Look out!"
(Space is vast and infinite.)
Congratulations.  You've crash landed on the Collector Base without blowing up into a firey death.  Time for a land war in Asia.

The Council asked Shepard to go to Noveria.  You might think the Council is stupid, and that's fine.  Now I'm not against seeking help from other sources, but it's really not that big a deal nor can I see it as an issue of freedom, choice, or more reasonable or effective use of resources.  You've just been made a Spectre.  They want you to track down Saren.  They're giving you a lead toward that.  If you wanted a dynamic mission based system where subquests interacted with and changed the nature of the main mission, I might recommend Alpha Protocol.  As it stands, having the narrative give us 1) good cause, 2) orders from our new authority, 3) methods and reasons to achieve our goal, I am not seeing the argument.

So if we are allowing explanations for the Council being stupid, can we not say the same for the Shepard resurrection plot? Perhaps it was not the best of plans on Illusive Man's part, but we can simply say he's stupid. And the narrative does give us at least the first two, if not the third of your list. Illusive Man gives us:

1) a good cause-Reapers will destroy all life.
2) Orders from new authority- find your team, go to Horizon/Collector Ship/etc
3) Reasons and to a lesser degree methods- Highly advanced warship, Reaper IFF, etc.

[quote]
I dismiss every Codex argument.  If the narrative doesn't explain why, it's not important, nor should I have to refer to it to explain plot essential information.  You might think you need/should get a Spectre, but only after reading the Codex. [/quote]

The narrative certainly doesn't explain why Shepard is getting a ragtag crew of alliance soldiers as well as a priceless warship with innovative new stealth technology to chase down a single rogue Spectre.

[quote]
Nope, that was the deal.  Also, Shepard has proven capable.  It's time for humanity to prove themselves.  This is an ongoing theme in ME.  The Council sees Saren as on the run and powerless.

There is no need for explsition as to why they send Shepard alone.  Your codex-said-so argument is moot and subjective at best. [/quote]

Moot, perhaps. Although if we are refusing to admit codex entries now, we can also say that the narrative does not truly account for how biotics, FTL drives, and whatever else you will works. I'm also not quite certain how mathematics can be subjective. "Spectres work alone or in small groups" does not really lend itself to interpretation.

The problem here is you are using literary devices to explain plot details. You cannot use Shepard's "chosen" status to say that is why the Council sends him after Saren. Neither can you use the theme of humanity. The Council is not saying to themselves "Shepard is our chosen and the theme of this game is humanity, so we should send him obviously". Themes are great, however they should be based on what actually happens in the  
narrative, not the other way around.

[quote]
"Saren was their greatest agent."  This is what they believe, sans geth army.  And as we all know, they're bureaucratic idiots.  This is not difficult to grasp.

Yadda yadda your subjective codex entry argument yadda. [/quote]

Perhaps I missed the scene where Saren loses all his combat ability, biotics, and flying saucer after they revoke his Spectre status. Again, bureaucratic idiots I can deal with, however they stretch it to the point of absurdity. "We'll send Shepard because we're too stupid to send a better Spectre after Saren". From your description, it's as if the Council expected Saren to be hiding out on Omega. Shepard is not Bobba Fett hunting a bounty.

[quote]
The Council do not believe about the Reapers and are stupid/ignorant about the Geth Army.

Yes, I agree, the Council should've had more resources dedicated to this, but they're morons, and they've clearly explained their opinions on the matter.

Holy yadda yadda, give it a rest man.  Or start up a new thread on how you really feel Shepard should've been buddy buddy with a more experienced Spectre because the Codex said so.  Again I'm not against this idea, you're just not gonna get anything out of me about it: the narrative is clear about this. [/quote]

They're certainly morons when the plot demands they be so. But given some of their shows of stupidity that we are allowing, I'm surprised that they refused to admit Shepard's visions as evidence. Stupidity as a flaw is admissible to a point. Your interpretation (or at least what it sounds like) reduces Saren to a common criminal.

[quote]
Because we can use Saren's outburst as a way of understanding his character? That he's prone to outbursts, maybe?
[/quote]

So likewise, can we not say that we use Harbinger's comments to the Collectors as a way of understanding his character?

Modifié par Il Divo, 13 juillet 2010 - 10:29 .