329 réponses à ce sujet

[InvaderErl]

[quote]didymos1120 wrote...

[quote]InvaderErl wrote...

And once again I ask how did Tali have a voice recording of Saren talking about what a great success the attack on Eden Prime several days before it had even happened.
[/quote]

I'm convinced that was just an oversight after they did some script revision to the early part of the game to up the pacing.  In fact, it may have happened late enough that they just didn't have time to re-record or even properly check the continuity.  One reason I think this is that you can run into two different characters on the Citadel, both of whom switch VAs for a single line, then revert back to the normal voice (Chellick and Chorban).  Clearly, some last minute adjustments were happening to some stuff on the Citadel, and they couldn't get those VAs back in the time they had left.[/quote]

That's certainly possible, there are bits all throughout ME1 that hint towards a rushed development cycle (the butchering of Therum/Caleston for example.

Nevertheless, it still leaves us with a major problem as far as that part of the plot stands in that the timeline doesn't make any sense.

[quote]didymos1120 wrote...

Except his non-inifinite supply of Colossi and geth in general.  The dude had operations going on all over the place, and it's not hard to imagine that he simply thought they'd be better used elsewhere.  Guarding his vacation home on Virmire, for instance. Or the field base the geth had established in ExoGeni headquarters on Feros. Or held in reserve for the big game at the Citadel (of course, those dudes got left behind at the last minute to try and stop Shep and Co.). They're almost certainly harder to replace than a few lowly trooper platforms. 

He also attacked Feros without a whole lot of time to properly plan. It was closer to some exec frantically trying to shred documents before the warrant for the company's financial records gets executed than it was to a well-planned military operation.  [/quote]

Saren's certainly willing to drop Armateurs on the bridge to stop the mako and he was dropping troops in through the roof. The colonists were badly armed and tired they were not in a position to stop anything much less a shielded walking tank dropped past their defensive line.

It makes no sense that when he has air support like that he just doesn't hover the dropship and used the armored tanks that we KNOW he uses against Shepard and just take the colony by force rather than funnel them down a long narrow passage way where their EVERYTHING advantage could be nullified.

I mean we're not talking a well planned military op, were talking BASICS and as a Spectre its one of Saren's dumbest moments in the game.

[quote]didymos1120 wrote...

Why would a Colossus equate to instant victory anyway?  The colonists had all sorts of cover available, and that big old thing can't really negotiate narrow doorways and staircases (not without methodically blasting out walls, which just makes it vulnerable while doing so and also liable to cut itself off and/or get itself crushed if it takes out to many load bearing elements) Yeah, it'd definitely nail a few, or even a whole lot, but the rest could just whittle it down in relative safety from all sorts of angles. [/quote]

They are armed with pistols, they are not going to be able to stop enemy armor. Hell, send in the troops that he's throwing into the slaughter once the Colossus hits.

[quote]didymos1120 wrote...
Hell, for all we know, that was the geth's first move, and a big pile of colonists did indeed eat flaming death, but then Colossus also ate it shortly thereafter.  I mean, we do know that their pre-geth population was much, much larger.  We also know they've trashed a bunch of geth since the attack started.  But, we don't see the bodies from either group.  I.e., they've cleaned up, and we have no way of knowing what was or was not in the geth pile. And yes, the bodies we players create fade, but they also don't fade when the devs create them to be part of the permanent scenery, which they did quite a bit.[/quote]

Saren has more armored tanks that he should have been relentlessly pounding the colonist with - the amount of firepower he has could have easily overwhelmed the frankly pathetic defenses they had mounted had he not been busy playing 300 with them.

[quote]didymos1120 wrote...
Why would you even think she did in the first place?  Because of a label on the galaxy map?  The whole planet was just one big, multi-company mining operation.  Whoever ran that particular mine, they're obviously the ones who discovered the ruins and did all the digging. Liara just went there to look at that which had been dug up.  At most, after arriving she may have advised them about what/where to dig, but nothing suggests she was officially in charge. And, that isn't even the only ruin there.  Mining companies had already found a bunch of other sites in the past, per the planet description.[/quote]

Point taken.


[quote]didymos1120 wrote...
No they didn't. We have no idea what attracted the STG's notice, but it wasn't krogan.  They had no clue about them until they tried infiltrating the base (and got reamed in the process).  Also, keep in mind: we don't know the original plan.  The immediate fallout from Eden Prime and then Shep both forced Saren's hand.  Whatever it was, though, it clearly involved krogan. [/quote]

That doesn't make any sense though - the Reapers would nullify any need for a large clone army and since he's taking his orders from Sovereign I don't see what the heck Saren was trying to accomplish. He had the Geth already, cloned Krogans was just nonsensical.

As for attracting them, sure - but he definitely could have maintained a lower profile which should have been a priority with him at that point and building a cloning facility for what I can only determine was the lulz did quite the opposite.

[quote]didymos1120 wrote...
Sure, it turned out Saren could indeed have done without, since he obviously almost succeeded, but that doesn't mean he knew that.  There are plenty of examples in military history of things/places/people being considered crucial to victory that ultimately weren't.  Or even turning out to be a liability that gets you defeated. [/quote]


[quote]didymos1120 wrote...
[quote]If he knew Shepard was on his trail why did he leave the Beacon on Virmire intact, he already had its info what was he doing with it?[/quote]

The beacons were general purpose data storage/comm devices.  The message about Ilos was just that: a message.  Who knows what other useful stuff might have been on there.  That's exactly why everyone was so stoked about the one found on Eden Prime. 

Also, he obviously thought he'd contained things by keeping the STG team from reporting in and capturing a bunch of them.  He's not ominiscient, so what reason is there for assuming that he knew the STG transmission was only 99% blocked, the attempt to transmit was noticed, and that Shep was informed of the facility's existence?  [/quote]

He was seeking out the other beacons by this point, I think we can safely assume that he had mined that one for what data he could but let's forget that and assume that yes he still needed that beacon for whatever reason.

So he has ONE lock protecting it. ONE.... that a underling knew the pass for. I mean that's James Bond villain logic. How about a code that requires his voice lock, what about a booby trap to prevent tampering, ANYTHING better than what they lock the store room at Staples with.

[quote]didymos1120 wrote...
But really, who cares?  Do you believe Saren capable of misjudgement?  If yes, that's all the explanation that's required: he misjudged how secure the base was, and that influenced his decision to keep the beacon. It was locked away all nice and safe in that super secret, super tough base, wasn't it?  Plenty of time to get rid of it later, if it even comes to that....

[/quote]

He misjudges to the point of lunacy, to the point where it becomes a plot contrivance.


Now, I'm only trying to point out that Mass Effect 1's plot is hardly iron clad, it has a great many of its own plot holes, leaps in logic, contrivances - etc.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 06 juillet 2010 - 10:22 .

[InvaderErl]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
Do we know how long it took for the Normandy to get from Eden Prime to the Citadel?

Or when Tali actually ambushed the geth that she took this recording from?

I admit I'm a little shaky on the timeline.

15 hours (the amount of time Shepard was knocked out by the beacon.)

Actually, the absense of timeframe in ME1 make it easy to assume that a week or more passed between Shepard's coming to his senses in the Normandy infirmary, and his first meeting Udina.

This was screwed up in ME2 where the "urgency triggers" made more time paradoxes than solved. This has been recently discussed in  the "Redcliffe" thread.

Not true. Anderson says Udina has arranged a meeting and that they're to head to the Citadel and we see the relay jump - docking in real time.

Assuming that the loading screen after docking means that they took WEEKS to meet with Udina is ludicrous - a couple of hours, sure. A day? I'd be willing to let that pass though that's already pushing it, but several days? A week? No.

Not to mention, Udina's dialogue with the Council indicates that this is the first time that he is hashing this out with them making it clear only a few hours have passed.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 06 juillet 2010 - 10:32 .

[Zulu_DFA]

InvaderErl wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
Do we know how long it took for the Normandy to get from Eden Prime to the Citadel?

Or when Tali actually ambushed the geth that she took this recording from?

I admit I'm a little shaky on the timeline.

15 hours (the amount of time Shepard was knocked out by the beacon.)

Actually, the absense of timeframe in ME1 make it easy to assume that a week or more passed between Shepard's coming to his senses in the Normandy infirmary, and his first meeting Udina.

This was screwed up in ME2 where the "urgency triggers" made more time paradoxes than solved. This has been recently discussed in  the "Redcliffe" thread.

Not true. Anderson says Udina has arranged a meeting and that they're to head to the Citadel and we see the relay jump - docking in real time.

Assuming that the loading screen after docking means that they took WEEKS to meet with Udina is ludicrous - a couple of hours, sure. A day? I'd be willing to let that pass though that's already pushing it, but several days? A week? No.

Man, forget the real time. What you see on screen has nothing to do with real time. You can start a new ME2 , send Ashley to the escape pods and start your run for Joker. Than, in the middle of the decompressed CIC you can leave it be and IRL go downtown for shopping and entertainment. Then return to your PC hours later and find Shepard still nice and tight and Joker still trying to save the Normandy.

Udina arranged a meeting? Good thing it was with the Council, and not with Shaira!

Flying the Normandy between relays and planets must take some time, you know?

This doesn't work with the "crew abduction" ME2 sequence though: "all team on the shuttle" would be back long before the Collector Cruiser could fly through a number of mass relays from wherever it had been when the Normandy started to "transmit" her coordiantes.

[InvaderErl]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Man, forget the real time. What you see on screen has nothing to do with real time. You can start a new ME2 , send Ashley to the escape pods and start your run for Joker. Than, in the middle of the decompressed CIC you can leave it be and IRL go downtown for shopping and entertainment. Then return to your PC hours later and find Shepard still nice and tight and Joker still trying to save the Normandy.

There's a disconnect between gameplay time and cutscene time. For example if I pause the game in a cutscene it does not take Shepard 3 hours to punch Saren, it takes whatever time it does in the cutscene.

Not to mention we can assume some sort of internal logic within the game's time that supercedes that of the real world, that is to say that no as far as the game is concerned if you were to stop playing and come back in 2 years, that no 2 years has not passed.

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Udina arranged a meeting? Good thing it was with the Council, and not with Shaira!

Flying the Normandy between relays and planets must take some time, you know?

Which is what they were doing for some of the 15 hours that Shepard was out, not to mention that when you get the distress call at the start of Mass Effect you're less than 20 minutes out from Eden Prime so the distance between the colony and the Relay is not all that great.

Zulu_DFA wrote...
This doesn't work with the "crew abduction" ME2 sequence though: "all team on the shuttle" would be back long before the Collector Cruiser could fly through a number of mass relays from wherever it had been when the Normandy started to "transmit" her coordiantes.

That is definitely the weakest part of the game story wise for me (though the abduction sequence is cool enough that I'm willing to let it pass), so no I wouldn't defend that moment.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 06 juillet 2010 - 10:58 .

[Zulu_DFA]

InvaderErl wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Man, forget the real time. What you see on screen has nothing to do with real time. You can start a new ME2 , send Ashley to the escape pods and start your run for Joker. Than, in the middle of the decompressed CIC you can leave it be and IRL go downtown for shopping and entertainment. Then return to your PC hours later and find Shepard still nice and tight and Joker still trying to save the Normandy.

There's a disconnect between gameplay time and cutscene time. For example if I pause the game in a cutscene it does not take Shepard 3 hours to punch Saren, it takes whatever time it does in the cutscene.

Not to mention we can assume some sort of internal logic within the game's time that supercedes that of the real world, that is to say that no as far as the game is concerned if you were to stop playing and come back in 2 years, that no 2 years has not passed.

And it works perfectly the other way: If you see a scene to follow immediately after another, but the in-game logic supposes there must be some time in-between them, than the time was there.

InvaderErl wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Udina arranged a meeting? Good thing it was with the Council, and not with Shaira!

Flying the Normandy between relays and planets must take some time, you know?

Which is what they were doing for some of the 15 hours that Shepard was out, not to mention that when you get the distress call at the start of Mass Effect you're less than 20 minutes out from Eden Prime so the distance between the colony and the Relay is not all that great.

15 hours + a week that took Tali to kill a geth and run into trouble on the Citadel.

InvaderErl wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
This doesn't work with the "crew abduction" ME2 sequence though: "all team on the shuttle" would be back long before the Collector Cruiser could fly through a number of mass relays from wherever it had been when the Normandy started to "transmit" her coordiantes.

That is definitely the weakest part of the game story wise for me (though the abduction sequence is cool enough that I'm willing to let it pass), so no I wouldn't defend that moment.

What so cool about it? That the only guy who could unshackle EDI was the one that was the farhterest away? Or that the Collectors forgot to bring a Big Eff-ing Bomb to the Normandy with them? Or send in the Seekers first?

The only excuse Mac Walters can have for anything that happens starting with the IFF test is that he was told: "Look, Mac, you have to wrap things up. And fast, 'cause the animation guys need to put them on screen, and they're still having some problems with squinty eyes and idiotic smiles... BUT WE NEED TO MEET THE DEADLINE! AT ALL COSTS!!!"

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 06 juillet 2010 - 11:12 .

[InvaderErl]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And it works perfectly the other way: If you see a scene to follow immediately after another, but the in-game logic supposes there must be some time in-between them, than the time was there.

Except the game does not imply that this time exists, there are no references to "Wow, Shep we've sure had a lot of fun for the time that we've been on this station," it is very clear through spoken dialogue between Udina/the Council, Shep and the Citadle dwellers, Kaiden/Ash's comments marveling at what they are seeing that they have only just recently arrived as opposed to this mysterious week.

You are inserting this time where none exists to make the situation work. I could simply make up things too, but the evidence just doesn't support it.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

15 hours + a week that took Tali to kill a geth and run into trouble on the Citadel.

The mysterious week to which there is no implied or spoken evidence of rears its head again.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

What so cool about it? That the only guy who could unshackle EDI was the one that was the farhterest away? Or that the Collectors forgot to bring a Big Eff-ing Bomb to the Normandy with them? Or send in the Seekers first?

The only excuse Mac Walters can have for anything that happens starting with the IFF test is that he was told: "Look, Mac, you have to wrap things up. And fast, 'cause the animation guys need to put them on screen, and they're still having some problems with squinty eyes and idiotic smiles... BUT WE NEED TO MEET THE DEADLINE! AT ALL COSTS!!!"

If you want to argue that with yourself don't let me stop you but apparently my saying yes you are right about that situation is not good enough for you and you want to engage in some kind of squabble about it.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 06 juillet 2010 - 11:40 .

[Zulu_DFA]

InvaderErl wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
And it works perfectly the other way: If you see a scene to follow immediately after another, but the in-game logic supposes there must be some time in-between them, than the time was there.

Except the game does not imply that this time exists, there are no references to "Wow, Shep we've sure had a lot of fun for the time that we've been on this station," it is very clear through spoken dialogue between Udina/the Council, Shep and the Citadle dwellers, Kaiden/Ash's comments marveling at what they are seeing that they have only just recently arrived as opposed to this mysterious week.

You are inserting this time where none exists. I could simply make up things too, but the evidence just doesn't support it.

Tali's evidence supports it. Maybe Normandy had to wait for C-Sec clearence to dock with the Citadel. Damn bureaucracy!

InvaderErl wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
15 hours + a week that took Tali to kill a geth and run into trouble on the Citadel.

The mysterious week to which there is no implied or spoken evidence of rears its head again.

There is a lot of things the game just "assumes". Or it'd take you a month and 50 DVDs to play. And a lifetime in development. Sometimes these "assumptions" are seemless, sometimes far-fetched, and sometimes they constitute a plothole. This mysterious week is between "seemless" and "far-fetched". Well, maybe leaning a little more to "far-fetched".

InvaderErl wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
What so cool about it? That the only guy who could unshackle EDI was the one that was the farhterest away? Or that the Collectors forgot to bring a Big Eff-ing Bomb to the Normandy with them? Or send in the Seekers first?

The only excuse Mac Walters can have for anything that happens starting with the IFF test is that he was told: "Look, Mac, you have to wrap things up. And fast, 'cause the animation guys need to put them on screen, and they're still having some problems with squinty eyes and idiotic smiles... BUT WE NEED TO MEET THE DEADLINE! AT ALL COSTS!!!"

If you want to argue that with yourself don't let me stop you but apparently my saying yes you are right about that situation is not good enough for you and you want to engage in some kind of squabble about it.

I noticed that you agree that the "crew abduction" was weak.
I also noticed that you called it "cool".
And, since I think that this "coolness" and the BioWare's desire to make ME2 as "cool" as possible, is the major problem with ME2, I took interest in your definition of "coolness", and expressed my reasons why I think there's actually very little "cool" about it. But if you think it's all a squabble bait, don't answer.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 07 juillet 2010 - 12:06 .

[InvaderErl]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Tali's evidence supports it.

Oh my...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Maybe Normandy had to wait for C-Sec clearence to dock with the Citadel. Damn bureaucracy!

This is what I am saying, the situation as it stands now does not work, the meeting occuring up to a WEEK after Shepard's arrival makes NO sense - so it must have happened earlier, except Tali needs a couple of days to pass before she can have the evidence and show up so I guess the meeting happened later, except we're back to the first problem again!

You have to create a scenario that would result in Shepard/Udina/Anderson and the Council not meeting for an ENTIRE week and once you start doing that we may as well just make up whatever we please to fill in the plot holes.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

There is a lot of things the game just "assumes".

A good example of implied passage of time is the Normandy flying somewhere at FTL., this week setup just doesn't have any such element, visual or spoken to support it.

Zulu_DFA wrote...

I noticed that you agree that the "crew abduction" was weak.
I also noticed that you called it "cool".
And, since I think that this "coolness" and the BioWare's desire to make ME2 as "cool" as possible, is the major problem with ME2, I took interest in your definition of "coolness", and expressed my reasons why I think there's actually very little "cool" about it. But if you think it's all a sqabble bait, don't answer.

I think the actual abduction itself was a well-executed scene that added something emotionally to the game. Now if you didn't care for it *shrug*, I really don't care - that's your opinion and I have mine.

That being said I can still like what I felt the scene brought to the experience even if I think what led to the actual abduction itself was forced, therefore I like it in spite of its flaw.

However, it seemed initially that you were using that example at first to say " why are you picking on ME1's timeline issue with Tali when the Collector ship arrives way too quickly in the abduction scene"  to which I responded no I agree that is a goof up but I like it anyway, but I wouldn't defend it because I do have that problem with it - to which you go off on a whole new tangent argument, a lot of which seems to me to be based on emotion and anger with the writer to which I'd rather not derail this thread by getting into, especially now that I see that this was going to lead into some kind of "coolness" debate.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 07 juillet 2010 - 12:36 .

[Zulu_DFA]

InvaderErl wrote...
there is a whole new tangent argument, a lot of which seems to me to be based on emotion and anger with the writer to which I'd rather not derail this thread by getting into.

All right, fair enough. One last note though: my anger is not with the writer. It's with the deadline, that came to early.

[Ksandor]

I have a different opinion. Maybe they arrived Citadel after Eden Prime within 15 hours but that does not mean that they found Tali right after that. Maybe they rescued Tali after a week. You can complete all citadel quests within a few hours but the real story time and gameplay time (which is much faster) are different.

[Badpie]

Ksandor wrote...

Some said ME1 was akin to Star Trek and BSG and ME2 is similar to Star Wars. I agree.

I am sure many of you already said this but warning Bioware once more won't hurt.

ME2 is a great game, replayable, enjoyable... We are discussing the details, what we like and what we don't for months now. 

But I wish ME2 focused on the story as much as ME1. Major plot holes exist. How Shepard's body was found and recovered exactly? Not even ME comic gives details.

How Mordin found the seeker bug?

Who attacked the Cerberus base? Who Wilson was working for? (forgetting such details is unbecoming to you Bioware).

What is the exact reason for a human reaper?

If reapers convert selected species to new reapers why all the reapers are squid like and not the converted versions of various species?

Who was Miranda's father?

Why we don't know the exact reason of Omega district plague?

I am sure you can find more questions if you want.

Bioware the plot is what makes your games better than stupid Holywood movies. If you only go for action and character interaction and forget the plot your quality will suffer. I am sure you do not have to have a great plot to sell the game. But I think people as sophisticated as you would like to write better plots. You did this with ME. Please do it for ME3 too. I think character oriented ME2 will get old fast and final installment of the trilogy should be more story driven.

QFT.

I love ME2 and am currently replaying it, which gives me a better opportunity to notice things I didn't notice before.  And you're right.  I'm finding myself going "wait, what?" WAY more often than I should.  I know their big focus was bringing the combat up to par and making this a decent shooter.  And that's great.  The combat is amazing now and I nearly peed myself when I saw the improvements they'd made.  But as a result they kind of...put the storytelling on the backburner in a lot of ways.

Aside from the "wait, what?" moments that are positively littering this game, the overall story isn't an overall story.  It's an episodic story.  ME1 felt like a movie, with an over arching plot that was integrated into all of the main missions and a steady, natural progression of story.  ME2 is like a television show.  This week's episode is Jack's loyalty mission.  It has nothing to do with the main story, but here it is anyway.  Don't get me wrong, I loved the loyalty missions, but sometimes it felt like space fillers where there should have been more of the "real" story.

And I know people will argue that ME2 "was about the characters" but it really wasn't.  Having that many squad members really hurt Bioware's ability to fully develop wonderful characters.  I saw glimmers of character development, but none of the characters really realized their full potential in the game because there were so many of them and not enough time.  Not to mention the fact that unless you were romancing one of them they just kind of stopped talking to you.  I loved the characters, but I felt like their development was sadly lacking, and this made me sad because there were some amazingly interesting places they could have gone.

[smudboy]

Ksandor wrote...

Badpie wrote...

Sokath, his eyes uncovered.

[Zulu_DFA]

Ksandor wrote...

I have a different opinion. Maybe they arrived Citadel after Eden Prime within 15 hours but that does not mean that they found Tali right after that. Maybe they rescued Tali after a week. You can complete all citadel quests within a few hours but the real story time and gameplay time (which is much faster) are different.

Or this^.

Or both. A week between Eden Prime and Citadel, and another week to meet Tali.

As I said, the absence of a strict timeframe in ME1 was odd, but beneficial. Unlike the partial "urgency" timeframe in ME2.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 07 juillet 2010 - 12:59 .

[Ksandor]

Badpie wrote...

Ksandor wrote...

Some said ME1 was akin to Star Trek and BSG and ME2 is similar to Star Wars. I agree.

I am sure many of you already said this but warning Bioware once more won't hurt.

ME2 is a great game, replayable, enjoyable... We are discussing the details, what we like and what we don't for months now. 

But I wish ME2 focused on the story as much as ME1. Major plot holes exist. How Shepard's body was found and recovered exactly? Not even ME comic gives details.

How Mordin found the seeker bug?

Who attacked the Cerberus base? Who Wilson was working for? (forgetting such details is unbecoming to you Bioware).

What is the exact reason for a human reaper?

If reapers convert selected species to new reapers why all the reapers are squid like and not the converted versions of various species?

Who was Miranda's father?

Why we don't know the exact reason of Omega district plague?

I am sure you can find more questions if you want.

Bioware the plot is what makes your games better than stupid Holywood movies. If you only go for action and character interaction and forget the plot your quality will suffer. I am sure you do not have to have a great plot to sell the game. But I think people as sophisticated as you would like to write better plots. You did this with ME. Please do it for ME3 too. I think character oriented ME2 will get old fast and final installment of the trilogy should be more story driven.

QFT.

I love ME2 and am currently replaying it, which gives me a better opportunity to notice things I didn't notice before.  And you're right.  I'm finding myself going "wait, what?" WAY more often than I should.  I know their big focus was bringing the combat up to par and making this a decent shooter.  And that's great.  The combat is amazing now and I nearly peed myself when I saw the improvements they'd made.  But as a result they kind of...put the storytelling on the backburner in a lot of ways.

Aside from the "wait, what?" moments that are positively littering this game, the overall story isn't an overall story.  It's an episodic story.  ME1 felt like a movie, with an over arching plot that was integrated into all of the main missions and a steady, natural progression of story.  ME2 is like a television show.  This week's episode is Jack's loyalty mission.  It has nothing to do with the main story, but here it is anyway.  Don't get me wrong, I loved the loyalty missions, but sometimes it felt like space fillers where there should have been more of the "real" story.

And I know people will argue that ME2 "was about the characters" but it really wasn't.  Having that many squad members really hurt Bioware's ability to fully develop wonderful characters.  I saw glimmers of character development, but none of the characters really realized their full potential in the game because there were so many of them and not enough time.  Not to mention the fact that unless you were romancing one of them they just kind of stopped talking to you.  I loved the characters, but I felt like their development was sadly lacking, and this made me sad because there were some amazingly interesting places they could have gone.

ditto

[Ksandor]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Ksandor wrote...

I have a different opinion. Maybe they arrived Citadel after Eden Prime within 15 hours but that does not mean that they found Tali right after that. Maybe they rescued Tali after a week. You can complete all citadel quests within a few hours but the real story time and gameplay time (which is much faster) are different.

Or this^.
Or both. A week between Eden Prime and Citadel, and another week to meet Tali.
As, I said, the absence of a strict timeframe in ME1 was odd, but beneficial. Unlike the partial "urgency" timeframe in ME2.

Ditto

[smudboy]

Haha, Ksandor. You ditto's someone who ditto'd you, twice.

Ksandor: Who is this brilliantly minded individual? ))))))

[ADLegend21]

Badpie wrote...

Ksandor wrote...

Some said ME1 was akin to Star Trek and BSG and ME2 is similar to Star Wars. I agree.

I am sure many of you already said this but warning Bioware once more won't hurt.

ME2 is a great game, replayable, enjoyable... We are discussing the details, what we like and what we don't for months now. 

But I wish ME2 focused on the story as much as ME1. Major plot holes exist. How Shepard's body was found and recovered exactly? Not even ME comic gives details.

How Mordin found the seeker bug?

Who attacked the Cerberus base? Who Wilson was working for? (forgetting such details is unbecoming to you Bioware).

What is the exact reason for a human reaper?

If reapers convert selected species to new reapers why all the reapers are squid like and not the converted versions of various species?

Who was Miranda's father?

Why we don't know the exact reason of Omega district plague?

I am sure you can find more questions if you want.

Bioware the plot is what makes your games better than stupid Holywood movies. If you only go for action and character interaction and forget the plot your quality will suffer. I am sure you do not have to have a great plot to sell the game. But I think people as sophisticated as you would like to write better plots. You did this with ME. Please do it for ME3 too. I think character oriented ME2 will get old fast and final installment of the trilogy should be more story driven.

QFT.

I love ME2 and am currently replaying it, which gives me a better opportunity to notice things I didn't notice before.  And you're right.  I'm finding myself going "wait, what?" WAY more often than I should.  I know their big focus was bringing the combat up to par and making this a decent shooter.  And that's great.  The combat is amazing now and I nearly peed myself when I saw the improvements they'd made.  But as a result they kind of...put the storytelling on the backburner in a lot of ways.

Aside from the "wait, what?" moments that are positively littering this game, the overall story isn't an overall story.  It's an episodic story.  ME1 felt like a movie, with an over arching plot that was integrated into all of the main missions and a steady, natural progression of story.  ME2 is like a television show.  This week's episode is Jack's loyalty mission.  It has nothing to do with the main story, but here it is anyway.  Don't get me wrong, I loved the loyalty missions, but sometimes it felt like space fillers where there should have been more of the "real" story.

And I know people will argue that ME2 "was about the characters" but it really wasn't.  Having that many squad members really hurt Bioware's ability to fully develop wonderful characters.  I saw glimmers of character development, but none of the characters really realized their full potential in the game because there were so many of them and not enough time.  Not to mention the fact that unless you were romancing one of them they just kind of stopped talking to you.  I loved the characters, but I felt like their development was sadly lacking, and this made me sad because there were some amazingly interesting places they could have gone.

Actually they did develop the characters very well. I started with ME2 and even missing some details I saw the chracters go leaps and bounds from where they were, especially Grunt, Jack and Miranda. Grunt goes from "it moves, it kill it!" to a motivated and battle smart Warrior, like a younger version of Wrex. Jack goes from practically hating everyone on the ship to being very approachable once you finish the mission on pragia and showing emotions other than pissed off. Same goes for Miranda, she burshes off shepard before you meet TIM for the first time and Questions your motives like there's no tomorrow. Once she opens up She becomes more approachable and even has some doubts about herself and self esteem issues.

As for the rest of this topic, Mass effect 2 is the build up for Mass effect three with things starting to fall into place (did you see the reaper fleet coming for the galaxy? epic final battle in the works) and most of the "plotholes" aren't really plot holes, just foreshadowing

[smudboy]

ADLegend21 wrote...
Actually they did develop the characters very well. I started with ME2 and even missing some details I saw the chracters go leaps and bounds from where they were, especially Grunt, Jack and Miranda. Grunt goes from "it moves, it kill it!" to a motivated and battle smart Warrior, like a younger version of Wrex. Jack goes from practically hating everyone on the ship to being very approachable once you finish the mission on pragia and showing emotions other than pissed off. Same goes for Miranda, she burshes off shepard before you meet TIM for the first time and Questions your motives like there's no tomorrow. Once she opens up She becomes more approachable and even has some doubts about herself and self esteem issues.

The problem isn't the characters per se, it's the inclusion into the story.  It's like "sure, I care about them on a personal level", but not where it matters: to the plot.  The fact we see their daddy issues is like "oh, okay?  Are you better now?  Now go die for me."  Only somehow they don't die.

As for the rest of this topic, Mass effect 2 is the build up for Mass effect three with things starting to fall into place (did you see the reaper fleet coming for the galaxy? epic final battle in the works) and most of the "plotholes" aren't really plot holes, just foreshadowing

Plot holes = foreshadowing?  Um...no.  Plot holes are plot holes.  Foreshadowing is to illude to something that will happen.  Unless you're saying there will be plot holes in ME3, well, okay, sure, I can totally see where you're coming from.

As for "seeing the Reaper fleet coming for the galaxy", 1) I don't know what/where that exactly was, or where they were going, 2) it was a few seconds of a bunch fo Reapers, which means absolutely nothing.  If we were told and shown bits and pieces of this of what that scene means, or across the narrative, instead of just some random, cutscene at the end, then, when we did see it we'd be "OMG!"  Instead it was after a fade to black shot, which then came out of nowhere.  It's like "huh?  Oh, this is about Reapers."  There was absolutely no build up nor context to that scene. 

Apparently "Harbinger is coming."  How Shepard knows this is anyone's guess.

[Throw_this_away]

I think people need to remember the difference between bad writing/storytelling (all 12 squad members getting on a shuttle before the collector attack) and parts of the story that will be left until ME3 to tell (Miranda's father, who attacked the cerberus base).

Until ME3 comes out it will be hard to know what is bad writing, and what was intentionally left out.

My guess is that most writing for ME2 was done with ME3 or even expansions in mind.

time will tell. Until then... Smudboy... charge!!!!

Modifié par Throw_this_away, 07 juillet 2010 - 07:28 .

[smudboy]

Throw_this_away wrote...

I think people need to remember the difference between bad writing/storytelling (all 12 squad members getting on a shuttle before the reaper attack) and parts of the story that will be left until ME3 to tell (Miranda's father, who attacked the cerberus base).

Until ME3 comes out it will be hard to know what is bad writing, and what was intentionally left out.

My guess is that most writing for ME2 was done with ME3 or even expansions in mind.

time will tell. Until the... Smudboy... charge!!!!

Oh come on.

To imply that a plot hole = not bad writing is absurd.

To imply that something can be resolved in a later installment is fine, provided it's setup that way.  Please, point out exampes.

For example, if Shepard and co. went "WTF is that?  A Human Reaper.  What?  Why?" and someone/everyone went "I have no idea, it is a mystery beyond comprehension.  Why would they do this?"  That would work.  But they just go:
"Not just any Reaper, a Human Reaper."
"Precisely."

If the narrative does not acknowledge the sheer unbelievability of a situation, it either needs to explain it, give suggestions as to why/how something is happening, or acknowledge it as a mystery.  Or else you're in magical lala fantasy dream land where anything can happen and people are going through the motions, like living through some abstract acid trip painting, throwing logic and causality out the window.  I'm quite sure ME wants to maintain a contemporary feel within a sci-fi universe, not a sci-fi fantasy where we have to question every event.

And the idea that ME3 will EXPLAIN EVERYTHING!  Is doubly absurd.

[ADLegend21]

[quote]smudboy wrote...
As for the rest of this topic, Mass effect 2 is the build up for Mass effect three with things starting to fall into place (did you see the reaper fleet coming for the galaxy? epic final battle in the works) and most of the "plotholes" aren't really plot holes, just foreshadowing[/quote]
Plot holes = foreshadowing?  Um...no.  Plot holes are plot holes.  Foreshadowing is to illude to something that will happen.  Unless you're saying there will be plot holes in ME3, well, okay, sure, I can totally see where you're coming from.

As for "seeing the Reaper fleet coming for the galaxy", 1) I don't know what/where that exactly was, or where they were going, 2) it was a few seconds of a bunch fo Reapers, which means absolutely nothing.  If we were told and shown bits and pieces of this of what that scene means, or across the narrative, instead of just some random, cutscene at the end, then, when we did see it we'd be "OMG!"  Instead it was after a fade to black shot, which then came out of nowhere.  It's like "huh?  Oh, this is about Reapers."  There was absolutely no build up nor context to that scene. 

Apparently "Harbinger is coming."  How Shepard knows this is anyone's guess.
[/quote]
I'm sorry did you miss the speech you heard as shepard nd the team that beat the reaper hauled ass back to the SR-2? I think it's safe to say after hearing "your species has the attention of those infinitly your greater, that which you know as reapers are your salvation through destruction" that someones coming to commit some genocide. Also you didn't read what I said " most of these "plotholes" are for shadowing" not all, but it goes to show just how much you nitpick No wonder some of yor plothoels are not knowing Miranda's fathers identity and wondering why Wilson betrayed Cerberus, even though the logs clery state he was upset over not getting paid and getting attention from Miranda because she was a perfectionist and tried to take it out of Shepard. Also you nitpick over the story of a game and got a 9.5 out of 10 and do nothing but praise the previous game which got the same thing. whine whine whine **** **** ****, that's all your posts say.

[Il Divo]

smudboy wrote...

The problem isn't the characters per se, it's the inclusion into the story.  It's like "sure, I care about them on a personal level", but not where it matters: to the plot.  The fact we see their daddy issues is like "oh, okay?  Are you better now?  Now go die for me."  Only somehow they don't die.

But then we must consider the other side of the coin, what was the purpose of the Mass Effect 1 squad mates? Certainly ME2 characters may feel disconnected from the plot, but their utility is made pretty clear (Grunt is the perfect krogan warrior, Samara is a biotic specialist, etc). As Commander Shepard I can easily see what use they can be put to.

But why exactly do I feel any motivation to bring the Mass Effect 1 cast? Garrus and Tali may both have personal motivations to go after Saren, but it's not clear what use they provide after the investigation. This would have been handled better if, for example, Tali had developed a special tech device capable of tracking Saren or Geth in general, or some other plot device, but as it stands Udina's orders should hardly serve as connection to the plot.

As for "seeing the Reaper fleet coming for the galaxy", 1) I don't know what/where that exactly was, or where they were going, 2) it was a few seconds of a bunch fo Reapers, which means absolutely nothing.  If we were told and shown bits and pieces of this of what that scene means, or across the narrative, instead of just some random, cutscene at the end, then, when we did see it we'd be "OMG!"  Instead it was after a fade to black shot, which then came out of nowhere.  It's like "huh?  Oh, this is about Reapers."  There was absolutely no build up nor context to that scene. 

Considering the context, it is pretty clear that the following the destruction of the Collector Base the Reapers are finally moving out of dark space to confront the organics themselves. This still evokes a sense of terror when you consider their number and the fact that they have operated through proxy soldiers this entire time to achieve their ends; they are finally taking Commander Shepard as a serious threat and are coming to destroy us all.

Modifié par Il Divo, 07 juillet 2010 - 07:41 .

[smudboy]

Il Divo wrote...
But then we must consider the other side of the coin, what was the purpose of the Mass Effect 1 squad mates? Certainly ME2 characters may feel disconnected from the plot, but their utility is made pretty clear (Grunt is the perfect krogan warrior, Samara is a biotic specialist, etc). As Commander Shepard I can easily see what use they can be put to.

I've never really considered ME1 the other side of the coin.

Their utility is NEVER made clear by ANYONE except TIM's take on Mordin.  They're reduced to soldieres, alibi with different skills, but nonetheless.  Why do we need soldier's for a spaceship/potential planetary attack?  Oh that's right, we don't even know what we're going up against.

So we've no reasons why we're getting everyone, save Mordin, or what we're going up against, save the Cruiser.

But why exactly do I feel any motivation to bring the Mass Effect 1 cast? Garrus and Tali may both have personal motivations to go after Saren, but it's not clear what use they provide after the investigation. This would have been handled better if, for example, Tali had developed a special tech device capable of tracking Saren or Geth in general, or some other plot device, but as it stands Udina's orders should hardly serve as connection to the plot.

ME1 involved people getting caught up in events: like life.  Garrus was called off his C-Sec investigation, but continued it with Shepard.  Tali was escaping Saren and saught protection, and ended up MacGuffin'ing and coming along for the ride.  She also (non-plot relevant) provided insight into the main opposing force.

Compare this to ME2's plot: Stop the Collectors.  We have a clear goal, but we don't even know what that involves, or why we suddenly need 12 people to accomplish that.  "You'll get who you need" my ass!

Considering the context, it is pretty clear that the following the destruction of the Collector Base the Reapers are finally moving out of dark space to confront the organics themselves. This still evokes a sense of terror when you consider their number and the fact that they have operated through proxy soldiers this entire time to achieve their ends; they are finally taking Commander Shepard as a serious threat.

No it's not pretty clear.  They could've been traveling for hundreds of years, or two years ago since the Citadel jump didn't work, or following the Collector Base battle.  No one knows.  Oh they were dramatic?  Oooh.

It involves a sense of "Oh yeah, Reapers?"  They could be anywhere.  Harbinger could just be some random exiled insane Reaper reject-project for all we know.  Does he ever say he's a Reaper?  I don't know, he's a mystery.  That scene had nothing to do with ME2, and if it did, it wasn't implied, illuded to, or built up in anyway.  Shepard just looks at a pad, looks out the hole in his ship, and fade-black to Reapers.  Ah huh.

[smudboy]

ADLegend21 wrote...
I'm sorry did you miss the speech you heard as shepard nd the team that beat the reaper hauled ass back to the SR-2? I think it's safe to say after hearing "your species has the attention of those infinitly your greater, that which you know as reapers are your salvation through destruction" that someones coming to commit some genocide.

And all that means is that Reapers are interested in humans, but we dont' know why.  Guess what?  Reapers are interested in all organics, cause they want to destroy them all.  Whoopdee-doo.  Thanks for the big reveal.  I had NO CLUE...

Also you didn't read what I said " most of these "plotholes" are for shadowing" not all, but it goes to show just how much you nitpick No wonder some of yor plothoels are not knowing Miranda's fathers identity and wondering why Wilson betrayed Cerberus, even though the logs clery state he was upset over not getting paid and getting attention from Miranda because she was a perfectionist and tried to take it out of Shepard. Also you nitpick over the story of a game and got a 9.5 out of 10 and do nothing but praise the previous game which got the same thing. whine whine whine **** **** ****, that's all your posts say.

I don't care if it's ONE plot hole: it's a incredibly stupid thing to say that 1) a plot hole = foreshadowing, 2) ME3 is the apologist to ME2, AND ME1.  I mean it's borderline retarded to think this way, but apparently, the ME2 narrative can do no wrong.  And don't worry!   ME3 will correct most of those bad writing plot holes for you smudboy!  Don't you fret

Who the flying hell cares about Miranda's father?  Oh, you mean ME3 will answer that?!?!??! OH GOOODIE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wilson betrayed Cerberus because of money and Miranda didn't go out with him?!?!?!?!??!?!  Why didn't I think of thaaaat?

I don't recall doing nothing but praising the previous game.  Show me where.  Go.  Right now.  Prove it.  Oh wait, you can't, cause you're tlaking out of your ass.

My posts are actually pretty analytical and descriptive.  Obviously not much here, since you ened to understanding things on the level of an enthusiastic 6 year old on sugar.