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Bioware no more major plot holes please


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#176
InvaderErl

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Nightwriter wrote...

Invader you must stop doing this "thinking" thing you're doing, it is going to seriously get in the way of your gameplaying, I can tell you that right now.

I mean it's like the Liara sex thing.

Shepard: "How can we have sex? We're two different species."

Liara: "Asari and humans are compatible in most ways, Shepard."

Shepard: "How is that even possible? It's not possible."

Liara: "Yes, it's possible."

Shepard: "But I'm a male in this playthrough, your species has no males. How could you be compatible in a way where you would still get pleasure from - "

BioWare *ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL OF LIARA*: "DON'T ASK QUESTIONS. IT'LL WORK."

Shepard: "... Okay."


The Protheans bio-engineered the early humans and early Asari to be compatible so that they could see some hot inter-species action.

#177
smudboy

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Il Divo wrote...
I certainly agree that the plot was contrived. However, its degree is also an important factor. The problem is not that Shepard puts together a team of specialists, but that so much emphasis is placed on it ad absurdum. Talk to Jacob after taking off in Normandy #2. Ask him what he thinks of the mission and he expresses anxiety because the "team isn't at 100%". Not because we have no idea what the Collectors are doing, or any other number of logical reasons God forbid.

I always figured that'd be a conversation to have with Kelly.  All that changes in that conversation is if everyone's loyalty is 100%.  What the heck does the Cerberus operative that has problems with a few of the crew suddenly know about their relationship with Shepard, and how they're suddenly focused?  Is he observing them somehow?  You'd think Kelly would be much more in their face about their issues, considerin she actually talks to them.

Gathering the "best and brightest" wasn't the problem, but they should've put more emphasis on other attributes. Samara as a biotic expert was fine, but more should have been done to emphasize that they are not just a team of 'badasses'. Tali perhaps could have had provided insight into Collector technology, etc with Mordin. Nevertheless, a good ground team is useful, especially since Freedom's Progress demonstrates that the Collectors do possess infantry units.  

I see nothing wrong with getting a good ground team, an engineer, a biotic, etc.  But this has to be in the narrative, not "you'll get who you need."  For what?  Doing what?  If TIM said "I believe you'll need an engineer", then OKAY!  Thank you for taking the time to explain your master recruitment plan, chief.  Same with the heavy weapon choice: we don't know what will be the most useful type to take on a mission.  If we got some intel on what we'll be encountering, we might have a good assessment of what weapon types to take.

Forgive my ambiguity. It's not that I didn't enjoy speaking with Tali (though she is nothing on Wrex), but exposition is only as good as the form in which it is delivered. We both know that Mass Effect 2 suffers from plot-holes, some worse than others.

I lump Tali and Liara in the same mold: they both provide insight into our opposing force.  Wrex is just Wrex.

Let's say a tiny fairy appeared at the very end and explained everything that the Collectors had been planning to do with this human reaper embryo (let's say that it was intended as a new vanguard). Now we have obtained exposition, at the expense of form which is my exact issue with characters such as Tali. She's my "tiny fairy" so to speak; she is interesting but her presence is so forced that I wonder why she's even there which ruins her exposition to a degree. 

I'll take clarity over identifying a thematic or plot device anyday, especially for something as bizarre as that.  There are arguably many, and better ways to present exposition: but it must be there.  It's like having a murder mystery with no people.

Mass Effect 1: Stop Saren. Could involve gathering information, reaching the conduit, killing, etc. Just stop him in one form or another.

Mass Effect 2: Stop the Collectors. Could involve gathering information about them, locate them, kill them. Just stop them, one form or another.

We ultimately are told certain abstract facts about the Collectors. Their motivation involves the fact that they're indoctrinated/repurposed Protheans. What they are doing is gathering humans into a genetic paste to create another Reaper. It's the more concrete/physical facts which are more circumspect. How many are there? How many ships? One? Two? Five hundred? These we really don't know before crossing Omega IV.

Yes we can draw similarities to both goals, that is, "stop the bad guys."  But Saren was a person, interacting with people on planets and the sort.  He even had a henchman we got to stop.  There were social and personal worlds to explore, plots to uncover, things to learn about their machinations, eventually to uncover the Conduit plot.

The Collectors are a mysterious, alien species, that don't talk, don't "leave a trace", don't interact with people, and fly around in a big cylinder.  They take humans.  That's it?  All our information networks and that's all we learn?  Then we get  the 2nd most ridiculous mission, the disabled Collector Cruiser, and all we learn is where their usual stop is  Revealing that they're Protheans is fluff to our ends (they could've been 100ks years old and it would've made absolutely no difference), as this discovery could've been made well before that (Horizon), and provides no tactical advantage (this is even worse than discovering Saren is upgraded as a cybernetic near the end.)

Let's just say I hear the "Collectors are Protheans, you idiot!"  So many times, as if it means something.

Where content may not have been clear, I certainly thought context made it so. Yes, I can see how the Collector General was an ambiguous element until the end, given we'd never seen him before. However on Horizon we do see him become possessed so clearly he is not speaking for himself. We also witness Harbinger at the end "releasing control" (no jokes, for the love of God) and see a hologram of a Reape hence we know it was possession. But if we can't trust this hologram, can we not say that Sovereign's hologram may have been a clever AI as well? To provide a similar example, how do we even know that Sovereign possessed Saren? Content doesn't make it clear.


Within that context, the narrative tells us that Sovereign is not a VI by our squad, although they could be wrong.  We've never encountered anything like that before.  The narrative has acknolwedged that this weird red glowing squid thing is "not as it appears."

In regards to Harbinger, no one has encountered it at all.  It's a voice talking smack.  We have nothing to point to, no dialog.  Yet for some inexplicable reason "Harbinger is coming."

Shepard: "No really, you have to believe me.  It was this booming vocie, an egotistical...Reaper!  Talking about...genetics, and..."
Council: "..."

When we hear "You have failed". Content was perhaps not clear, but once more context made it so. We understand the Reapers have been using the Collectors to gather humans for a new Reaper. Shepard successfully detonating a bomb prevented this result, hence this Reaper being "Harbinger" blames his henchmen. Again, we can certainly come to other conclusions regarding these events, but this by far is the most logical based on what facts we have available about the Collectors an Reapers.

That doesn't make sense.  If the Collectors are mindless drones, how can a indoctrinated, mindless, completely controlled drone fail?  And don't give me that whole Sunday morning cartoon James Bond style villain getting angry at his hired, brainless muscle, who only follows his masters orders, and can only look down and whimper.  That is childlessly dumb.  It's simply unclear writing.  What, does Harbinger normally talk to his mindless drones?  Does the million year old AI start blowing up small satellites when his dolls break, when it doesn't get his way?  It's absolutely out of character of what we know of Reapers, if in fact Harbinger is one.

#178
FourSixEight

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FourSixEight wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...
blither blither blither. why are you on the Mass effect 2 boards anyway, shouldn't you be on your "Mass effect 1> Mass effect 2? horse in the Mass effect 1 boards?


I don't care about any of the other back-and-forth flamebait quotes from both sides of the argument, but I'd like this question actually answered.



#179
BlackyBlack

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Doctor Michelle said Tali came a few days ago with evidence about Saren which had him saying about Eden Prime. However Eden Prime happened only recently, less than 24 hours ago (Shepard was knocked out for 15 hours, add a few hours to get to the Citadel, it's still less than 24 hours). Even worse, she got the evidence even before that from a Geth from an Uncharted World

Modifié par BlackyBlack, 08 juillet 2010 - 10:05 .


#180
Zulu_DFA

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BlackyBlack wrote...

Doctor Michelle said Tali came a few days ago with evidence about Saren which had him saying about Eden Prime. However Eden Prime happened only recently, less than 24 hours ago (Shepard was knocked out for 15 hours, add a few hours to get to the Citadel, it's still less than 24 hours). Even worse, she got the evidence even before that from a Geth from an Uncharted World



This has been already explained in this very thread just 2 pages ago!

http://social.biowar...28359/6#3043150

#181
InvaderErl

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You've created a time paradox!

Because that explanation makes NO sense other than saying oh here's something I completely made up that makes sense of it!

Trying to say that a week actually passed in the time it took us to talk to the Council and then hook up Tali is by far the most DESPERATE, ABSURD and SILLIEST thing I have EVER read on these forums.

Unless Shepard passed through a god damned MONOLITH on his way through the docking hatch to account for this magical temporal effect, please don't bring that argument up again.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 09 juillet 2010 - 07:08 .


#182
BlackyBlack

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

This has been already explained in this very thread just 2 pages ago!

Just like 99% of your ME2's "plot holes", but you're just a biased ME2 hater and don't wanna listen

#183
InvaderErl

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Except it hasn't even be explained, there's no way to explain the time discrepency without making something up wholesale.

A week passed while Shepard walked in Super Duper Slow Motion, is the game some kind of abstract representation of life now? I mean really.

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Modifié par InvaderErl, 09 juillet 2010 - 07:16 .


#184
Reptilian Rob

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#185
InvaderErl

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I suck on the internet so bad, I can never get those posters to work.

#186
Reptilian Rob

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InvaderErl wrote...

I suck on the internet so bad, I can never get those posters to work.

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#187
Massadonious1

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You have to manipulate the tubes better.

#188
SellaraAB

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Ksandor wrote...

But I wish ME2 focused on the story as much as ME1. Major plot holes exist. How Shepard's body was found and recovered exactly? Not even ME comic gives details.

I'm not sure what else needs to be known. The Shadow Broker tried to take the body and Liara gave it Cerberus. I guess I just assumed that they scanned the planet for his body or plotted the trajectory somehow.


How Mordin found the seeker bug?

This is the only one I completely agree with you about. Every single time I see that scene I'm utterly confused as to how it happened.

Who attacked the Cerberus base? Who Wilson was working for? (forgetting such details is unbecoming to you Bioware).

Several possibilities here. I don't think a mystery and a plot hole are at all the same thing. Wilson could have been hired by the shadow broker to kill everyone and collect Shepard.. or even by the collectors. Maybe he planned on killing shepard and giving her body to someone seeing as thats all the collectors and shadow broker wanted anyway. They never had interest in Shepard alive, just her body, presumably because they are taking people they find synonymous with humanity. That was the impression I got from them wanting the crew of the Normandy too. I think they take important people of a species when they can because they want to instill the "soul" of the species in the Reaper they make.

What is the exact reason for a human reaper?

This is something that wasn't meant to be answered in ME2. Again not a plothole but very open to speculation. I again kind of thought that the reason for the reapers was to distill a collection of all the most worthy races in history and preserve them eternally. Something related to extinction cycles I'd guess. They said 'we are your salvation through destruction' and this is what I took out of it. They also seem to like to talk about and show imagery of stars dying or being darkened.. then everyone talks about dark energy and a sun dying.

If reapers convert selected species to new reapers why all the reapers are squid like and not the converted versions of various species?

Again don't see the plothole just a question.. The ones we saw were not very humanoid but we did see them from behind and not very many of them. It's plausible that humanoid would not necessarily be the galactic norm.

Who was Miranda's father?

This was probably left open for Mass Effect 3. Probably a loyalty mission or part of a regular mission. I mean he is very powerful and you are building an army. Quite possible that you'd need to interact with or fight him at some point.

Why we don't know the exact reason of Omega district plague?

We do. The collectors designed it and the vorcha spread it. The vorcha are chaotic and something of a plague on the galaxy. The reapers used the Rachni to weaken the galaxy before already. Similiar tactics to use the vorcha to cause damage before they arrive.

I am sure you can find more questions if you want.

Bioware the plot is what makes your games better than stupid Holywood movies. If you only go for action and character interaction and forget the plot your quality will suffer. I am sure you do not have to have a great plot to sell the game. But I think people as sophisticated as you would like to write better plots. You did this with ME. Please do it for ME3 too. I think character oriented ME2 will get old fast and final installment of the trilogy should be more story driven.

I think the problem you are having is that you feel all the answers should have come in ME2, but the whole thing is set up as a trilogy. ME1 left alot of things unanswered as well. I think for the most part this is a top quality story so far. The human reaper did look a little silly though.



#189
InvaderErl

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Reptilian Rob wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

I suck on the internet so bad, I can never get those posters to work.

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#190
Reptilian Rob

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InvaderErl wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

I suck on the internet so bad, I can never get those posters to work.

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#191
didymos1120

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InvaderErl wrote...

Except it hasn't even be explained, there's no way to explain the time discrepency without making something up wholesale.


Oh, it's been explained.  It just that the best explanation is that Bioware did a rewrite and either didn't catch the continuity error, or did and it was too late to re-record.

The funny thing is, you could basically fix it simply by snipping that "a few days ago" out of the line.  Tali could have still been tracking a geth patrol hoping to bag one for research for days or even weeks prior, because we know the geth have FTL comms and that they periodically upload new info to share with geth in other platforms and their servers or whatever.  We even find a couple geth terminals in ME1 to hack which inform us about their current activities elsewhere.

All you need to assume is that somwhere in that 15 hours post-Eden Prime, Tali was finally able to bag one of the geth in that patrol, and that they'd recently uplinked to gethnet and downloaded the Saren/Benezia conversation.  I mean, it makes sense.  That's a legitimate news story for a Heretic: 

gthtp://gethtwitter.gth/geth_xj67djll98zrk700-987qtp9794: "We're one step closer to the return of the Reapers, guys!  Go us!  Click here for the audio.  Anyway, I'm off to Feros.  Wish me luck!"

So, Tali does her memory-core preservation voodoo, listens to the audio and thinks "Eden Prime?  Beacon? What's that all about?  And all this Reaper-worship stuff on here is weird too. And why are the geth hanging out with organics anyway?"

After that, all she had to do was a bit of googling on the extranet to realize she'd run across something important, and decide to hit the Citadel and see if anyone would like to buy info about a major news story.  A little convenient? Yeah, but much better than a totally intractable contradiction.

Modifié par didymos1120, 09 juillet 2010 - 08:16 .


#192
didymos1120

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Massadonious1 wrote...

You have to manipulate the tubes better.


Yeah.  The main thing to remember is that they're in series.  Very important, that.

#193
Guest_wiggles_*

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I love how posters like Zulu complain that a shortcoming of ME2 is that the story, at times, makes no sense, which is accurate. But when it comes to holding ME1 to the same standard retardery ensues. I could come up with zany explanations for all of the plot holes in ME2 that wouldn't even be in the same dimension of stupidity as the, um, time paradox theory.

#194
Spornicus

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Asking BW not to make more plot holes is one of the most ignorant and naive statements one can make. This topic should not be 8 pages, it should be locked.

#195
Ksandor

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Why asking Bioware to explain some important details in a more reasonable, plain and clear way is being ignorant and naive hmm? For me those are perfectly legitimate questions. And why a topic should be locked just because you find it irrelevant? You can disagree with me but you should not be disrespectful.



I just don't like that Hollywood crap where we do not get any reasonable explanations about why things happen in a certain way and I expressed my dislike. I pay for this stuff and I would like that they be more forthcoming about the plot. Maybe they will improve it in ME3. It is called fan feedback whether you respect it or not.

#196
Spornicus

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I don't respect it anymore because there are dozens of threads clogging the forums where people feel entitled to tell Bioware how they hate plotholes in their own unique way. What's worse is that each of these threads garners pages upon pages worth of responses. We get it, people are upset by "plotholes." Do we really need so many topics on the same issue? I don't see 10 Tali appreciation threads, I don't need to see 30 anti-plothole threads.

#197
Massadonious1

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Fan nitpicking is more like it.



We don't need to know who Miranda's father is because IT DOESN'T MATTER who he is. He is about as important to the overall narrative as Refund Guy.

#198
Ksandor

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The fact that there are so many threads about plot holes just proves that people really don't like them and want Bioware to be more thorough when it comes to plot quality. They should listen us. And I am sick of people being accused of nitpicking every time they say there are things they don't like. Let's hope Bioware does something about it -- improving plot that is. Seriously what's the harm?

#199
didymos1120

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Massadonious1 wrote...
We don't need to know who Miranda's father is because IT DOESN'T MATTER who he is. He is about as important to the overall narrative as Refund Guy.


We do know who he is:  Mr. Lawson.  He's rich, manipulative and an egotistical control freak with a yen for cloned offspring.

#200
Ksandor

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didymos1120 wrote...

Massadonious1 wrote...
We don't need to know who Miranda's father is because IT DOESN'T MATTER who he is. He is about as important to the overall narrative as Refund Guy.


We do know who he is:  Mr. Lawson.  He's rich, manipulative and an egotistical control freak with a yen for cloned offspring.


And that's is not the only or most important detail I asked. There are other, more important questions that need to be answered.

Modifié par Ksandor, 09 juillet 2010 - 10:27 .