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[MajesticJazz]

Now before anyone begins to flame me as Anti-Tali or trying to start a flame war, note that this thread isn't about that. This isn't a thread about why do people like/dislike Tali or a thread about Tali sucks/doesn't suck or anything like that. Simply put, I have played through ME2 numerous times and I have really noticed something about Tali.....she seemed to be brought back not to further her character's development or even the Quarian race. It seems as if Bioware merely brought Tali back to satisfy the large fanbase that Tali had from ME1 and they did so by adding her into the game and making her somehow significant to Shepard's role in ME2.

All of the ME1 party members were somewhat of a coincidence when they appeared. Archangel, the person causing problems for Omega gangs JUST happened to be Garrus. The ONE Alliance rep on Horizon JUST happened to be Ashley/Kaiden and so on and so forth, but atleast all of those characters such as Garrus, Wrex, Ash/Kaiden, and even Liara all felt.....right. Furthermore, even Garrus joining your party again felt okay and not really forced. With Tali, I really felt like Tali's adventures with Shepard should have ended with ME1. I mean think about it, the only reason why she came along was because she had information that helped us bring down Saren as a Spectre. ALSO she was a Quarian and Quarians has a lot of knowledge about the Geth and because we were fighting Geth 98% of the time in ME1, it made sense to have a Quarian on the team....it felt natural. Hell, out of all of the ME1 party members, Tali's pressence felt the most natural. However, I felt that her time with Shepard should have ended with the conclusion of ME1 because it made much more sense that way. Again, the only reason why she came along was to help fight the Geth which she had extensive knowledge about and she wanted to come along because she might run across something that might be interesting enough to bring back to the Fleet to end her pilgramage. And with that being said, SHE DID find something valuable enough to bring back. So when it was all said and done, she helped Shepard defeat the Geth, she found valuable data for her "right of passage" and her story with Shepard should have ended there. She goes back to her fleet and lives happily ever after.

However, after ME1 Tali had this large fanbase and Bioware felt like they would let this fanbase down if they did not bring her back and even allow her to be a romance for male shepard. THIS is why she feels forced in ME2 unlike in ME1 when it felt natural bringing her along. I believe Bioware had a missed opportunity to allow us to experience the Quarians from a different perspective. Bioware did GREAT with the Krogan/Asari in terms of giving us different personalities. In ME2 we have another Krogan team member, but unlike Wrex Grunt is much younger, unlike Wrex Grunt is not a mercenary, and unlike Wrex....Grunt is still searching for his purpose. Yes, we got another Krogan, but we got two different Krogan perspectives. Same with the Asari. Samara is much older than Liara, and instead of being some scientist fascinated by the protheans, Samara is a "Monk-type" character trying to fight injustice in the galaxy and better yet, she isn't romanceable so we really get to see the Asari in a different light. 

Now before I go further you're probably saying "Well what about Garrus?" well yes, unlike the Krogan/Asari, we didn't get another Turian character....instead we got Garrus again. And even though in many ways he seemed forced on us (Also brought back due to fan interest) atleast his character's story felt natural being with Shepard again. After ME1, I always imagined that Garrus will and SHOULD be an party member in ME2 and maybe even in ME3. I mean, Garrus really had no other place to go. He left C-Sec because he wanted to do good deeds without being held back by politics and teaming up with a Spectre was right up Garrus' alley. So even after the defeating Saren, it felt like Garrus' character to continue with Shepard all throughout the trilogy. And what is more important is that in ME2 we get to see a different side of Garrus, almost as if Garrus is a totally different person. I cannot say the same about Tali as she seems more like a "copy & paste" job from ME1 to ME2. It as if the only reason why BIoware added her in was to romance shepard.

Personally, Tali was one of the more interesting party members in ME1 but in ME2, she was one of the more dull ones. Funny thing is and the ironic thing is, out of all of the romance options Tali has the BEST romance option, more romance dialog, and a longer/more emotional romance scene......it is obvious what Bioware REALLY had in store for Tali with ME2...to be a romance option for male Shepard.

Now I was all for having Tali as a cameo in ME2 like Ash/Kaiden/Wrex/Liara.....and I believe that it would have been much more natural that way. I believe Bioware should have introduced another female Quarian for us to explore and get to know all over again, like they did with Samara in replace of Liara and Grunt in replace of Wrex. They should have given us a much older Quarian, more mature and possibly in her late 20s as opposed to 17 years old which is how old Tali is in ME2. That Quarian on the Citadel in ME2, the one that is accused of stealing a credit chit from the Volus.....she had a real mature voice and demeanor about herself and that just makes me wonder, did Bioware botch up an opportunity in ME2? Hell, Kal'Reegar seemed more interesting and made me wonder if Bioware should have given us a male Quarian instead of a female quarian/Tali over again.

I mean, in defense of Garrus being in ME2, atleast we get an opportunity to see many other Turians in the game. We see them as mercs, business men, soldiers, etc....there were probably more interactive Turians in ME1 than there were Quarians in the audience of Tali's trial in ME2. My point is, even though Garrus in many ways is a "Copy and Paste" job, atleast we still get to see many diversities of the Turian race as they are everywhere and we are always seeing them. With the Quarians, they are rare to see and because of this, having Tali again as a Quarian party member does little to "diversify" the Quarians in terms of how we see them. Yes, we see many different types of quarians and quarian ideals in Tali's trial, but do you ever think to yourself "Should they have been a party member?" Hell, that one female judge that wanted to bring back the Geth serve as a senthetic Quarian army seemed really interesting. The judge that wanted to make peace with the Quarians seemed...interesting. But Tali was just....well....Tali nothing new. We hardly get to see Quarians and even more, we hardly get to know Quarians in ME the same way we can with other races so it would have been better to have had a Quarian party member in ME2 that is a different age, background, and moral judgements. I mean, it is sad when the only thing that comes to my mind when I hear "quarian" is Tali. When I hear Turian that can be Saren, Garrus, Palin, The Purgatory Warden, "Lee" the mechanic from Noveria, Turian Counsilar etc. When I hear "Krogan" I see Wrex, Grunt, Wrev, Okeer etc. When I hear Quarian I see Tali as she has become the unoffical face for the Quarians and for a game that is supposed to take place in a large Galaxy, the Quarian race really seems to be "less diverse" in terms of representation.

I know this was a long read, but in all, Bioware should have not brought Tali back as a party member, cameo yes but not a team member until ME3. If they wanted to satisfy the sex with a quarian fetish, they should have created a whole new Quarian female and give her a new and interesting personality and history.

[Inquisitor Recon]

I can understand where you are coming from, but take this flame proof jacket and lead pipe just in case. Good luck.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Damnit I thought this topic was gonna be about something else, you leave me disappointed.

[Siansonea]

Gosh that's a lot of text.



For my part, every time I saw Tali in ME2 I just kept thinking 'FANSERVICE'. And fan service to a particularly gross subset of ME fans. That faceless girl is objectified in ways that I've never seen, and it grosses me the hell out.



It's funny, in ME1 I didn't mind Tali, I thought she was okay, it was Ashley I didn't like when I first started playing the game. It's weird how the way others have latched onto Tali as some sort of masturbatory sex object has killed her charm for me. Now I despise Tali and her carefully focus-grouped damsel-in-distress/plucky heroine/gas mask sex doll persona.



Now I'm playing through the first game again, and I'm appreciating Ashley more.

[Massadonious1]

Old argument is old.

[WrexEffex]

MajesticJazz wrote...


Personally, Tali was one of the more interesting party members in ME1 but in ME2, she was one of the more dull ones..

I couldn't disagree more with that statement. I literally didn't use Tali once during my first ME1 playthrough, I though she was so boring. In ME2, I used her more because she seemed more fleshed out as a character. She had become an important person among the quarians, and she wanted to go down on me so that helped.





jk that's gross. God put mouths on our heads for a reason!

[Siansonea]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Gosh that's a lot of text.

For my part, every time I saw Tali in ME2 I just kept thinking 'FANSERVICE'. And fan service to a particularly gross subset of ME fans. That faceless girl is objectified in ways that I've never seen, and it grosses me the hell out.

It's funny, in ME1 I didn't mind Tali, I thought she was okay, it was Ashley I didn't like when I first started playing the game. It's weird how the way others have latched onto Tali as some sort of masturbatory sex object has killed her charm for me. Now I despise Tali and her carefully focus-grouped damsel-in-distress/plucky heroine/gas mask sex doll persona.

Now I'm playing through the first game again, and I'm appreciating Ashley more.

*laughs*

Sian,
You're crazy, you know that? 

Yeah, not news to me.

[Jigero]

Except your ignoring the fact that Tali is the best engineer and machinist in the known galaxy, or one of the best and at least probably willing to help out. Garrus actually made very little sense, I'm suppose to be gathering the best of the best in the Galaxy. What is Garrus the best at being? He's a just a crappy dirty harry wannabe and a drop out bottom rung cop. I doubt he's the best Merc around considering we already have Zaeed and Thane. Garrus is mediocre at best. Wrex would have made more sense, He's one of the very feiw Battle Masters left and probably the most powerful by far.

[Siansonea]

We got a few butt-shots of Jacob too, don't forget. I think Miranda and Jacob were BioWare's naive idea that fans of this genre might actually be attracted to human characters.

[Siansonea]

Jigero wrote...

Except your ignoring the fact that Tali is the best engineer and machinist in the known galaxy, or one of the best and at least probably willing to help out. Garrus actually made very little sense, I'm suppose to be gathering the best of the best in the Galaxy. What is Garrus the best at being? He's a just a crappy dirty harry wannabe and a drop out bottom rung cop. I doubt he's the best Merc around considering we already have Zaeed and Thane. Garrus is mediocre at best. Wrex would have made more sense, He's one of the very feiw Battle Masters left and probably the most powerful by far.

And those hips...those hips...who...can...resist...

Seriously, all I can think of when I see Tali is that Black-Eyed Peas song "My Humps".

[Shotokanguy]

MajesticJazz wrote...

I know this was a long read, but in all, Bioware should have not brought Tali back as a party member, cameo yes but not a team member until ME3. If they wanted to satisfy the sex with a quarian fetish, they should have created a whole new Quarian female and give her a new and interesting personality and history.

If that's the basis of your argument, you didn't think this through.

Not that I care a whole lot about Tali, but why would anyone rather romance some new quarian character instead of the one they already knew and liked?

[Massadonious1]

Humans, attractive? We have dismissed that claim.

[Siansonea]

I think it's the sheer numbers of Gas Mask Sex Doll addicts that confuses and repulses me.

[Jigero]

Siansonea II wrote...

Jigero wrote...

Except your ignoring the fact that Tali is the best engineer and machinist in the known galaxy, or one of the best and at least probably willing to help out. Garrus actually made very little sense, I'm suppose to be gathering the best of the best in the Galaxy. What is Garrus the best at being? He's a just a crappy dirty harry wannabe and a drop out bottom rung cop. I doubt he's the best Merc around considering we already have Zaeed and Thane. Garrus is mediocre at best. Wrex would have made more sense, He's one of the very feiw Battle Masters left and probably the most powerful by far.

And those hips...those hips...who...can...resist...

Seriously, all I can think of when I see Tali is that Black-Eyed Peas song "My Humps".

Well Kasumi and Tali basicly have the same model so you got 2 sets of big hips. I always bring them on missions hoping I get to see a hip bump.

[Weiser_Cain]

I should flame you for that wall of text.
Tali just happens to lead a team of Quarians without whom you might not have gotten the evidence of... wait, why is this in the non spoilers section?

Look Tali makes as much sense as meeting anyone else again while hopping around as unimaginable big a place as a whole galaxy. If anything it makes more sense since there are so few Quarians.
While I admit I liked Tali from the start and mentioned that I would have rather have had a romance with her on the old bioware forums, Tali was nowhere near as popular as she was after ME2.
Samara is romanceable, you just can't have sex.
If you think about it all the romance-able characters got kicked out in favor of new characters to romance since bioware fears that settling in period of every relationship, where you walk around in unflattering underwear and admit you use the bathroom.
They brought back what I guess they though were the romance-able characters from part one. I strongly disagree with the idea of romancing Garrus, a cactus has more sexual appeal, but that's my opinion.

[Katamariguy]

Weiser_Cain wrote...

I strongly disagree with the idea of romancing Garrus, a cactus has more sexual appeal, but that's my opinion.

ooh.. cacti

[homestyle]

woah.



I read halfway and then realized that you could've condensed the first half into half that.



Bringing Tali into ME2 was a smart move that may have been planned all along since ME1. When you have a character and you don't show their face in part 1 and let the player get attached, you have to bring that character back in part 2. The rules of trilogies.



The character that doesn't make sense is Liara. She was in her "wandering" stage and would've been for ~200 more human years, but 2 years after the events of ME2, she acts like she's in the "maiden" stage trying to be all wise and all knowing.

[N7 Zachary]

i think the quarians are well written personally.

[Ski Mask Wei]

I hope Bioware's got the "appeasing to the fan base by keeping their favorite plot/characters in" thing out of their system with ME2 cause if they don't check themselves it could really hurt ME3. I can understand listening to the fans on things like gameplay and such but writing the game show only be in the hands of the writers. A great story is not some American Idol thing where fans get to keep their favorites on the show. Plot cohesion/integrity must come first or you get into that TV type foolishness where Urkel is still acting crazy even thought he's 25.



Would Ashley have been a squad-mate in ME2 if her fan-base would been more vocal?

[uzivatel]

While her return was probably caused by her popularity on this forum, I think BioWare did decent job given the circumstances.

As for wasted opportunity to show different Quarians, I believe certain part of the game was meant to do just that (you know, one of those parts BioWare spoiled prior the release).

[Brass_Buckles]

Basically this boils down to a gripe that you don't like people romancing Tali, a character they know and like (and it's not necessarily because she is faceless because a lot of guys seem to really want to see her face) because you wanted a shiny new quarian that YOU might like better (and given the romance jibe, maybe for that specific reason). I can get wanting a new quarian character, but let's leave the "you're a sicko if you romance X character" stuff out of it (and Tali is by the way in her early 20s, not 17). What people have their Shepards do in-game may not reflect their real-life personal preferences. For instance, as a female, for some of my Shepards, Garrus makes sense as a romantic interest. However, if I saw something like a turian in real life, my first reaction would be to run for dear life and hide until the monster went away. Barring romance I still think Garrus is a great character who needed more dialogue and attention in ME2 (and I would've been happy without romance, especially if I could have had my Shepard give the poor guy a hug when he looked so down), and I like turians in general as a species.

I personally think that both games would be better-served if Tali had actually had more personality than "nice," had actually shown the personality and skill to back the leadership her people have given her in ME2, and hadn't basically been the quarian encyclopedia. It's good to learn about the other species, but I'd rather do so through the codex and learn interesting things about the character I'm talking to when I'm in dialogue. I want to like Tali, but the truth is I still don't feel like I know her all that well except that she is nice, good with tech, hates geth, and has daddy issues.

Modifié par Brass_Buckles, 06 juillet 2010 - 06:42 .