118 réponses à ce sujet

[Splinter Cell 108]

There's also another reason to do it. The cutscene that you get is probably the best cutscene in the game IMO.

[Docbrown777]

You just can't leave a big ship and its' crew hung out to dry like that.



1. You lose a powerful ship

2. You lose a very large trained crew

3. The morale repercussions throughout fleet would be huge (not modeled in game but it's something I considered).

4. Losing the heads of the government is bad for stability and is another morale killer.

5. An attempt to save the ship, crew and government even if futile (assume the ship was still lost and even more humans died then had to) would result in more respect for humanity throughout the galexy.



Star Trek reference: Remember the Enterprise C was destroyed defending a Klingon colony from a Romulan attack. Even though the ship was lost the Klingons respected the actions. In an alternate timeline where the Enterprise C was removed before the fight's conclusion the result was decades of war between the Federation and Klingon Empire.

[NICKjnp]

What was your justification for not saving them. They are the head of the Galactic community. Letting them die seemed pointless. It seemed like people just wanted them to die because they didn't like them.

[Urazz]

Barquiel wrote...

- the Destiny Ascension is the most powerful ship in the Citadel fleet...it could be useful
- the geth could flank Hackett's ships while they're fighting an unknown AI dreadnought (the geth worshiped Sovereign)
- save the council to ensure political stability
- 10,000 person crew saved
- the asari councilor...

Good reasons but alot of us were thinking that the wasting the fleet on the Geth to protect the Destiny Ascension  would weaken it too much to take out Soveriegn.  The thinking was that Soveriegn would be taken out before the Geth would be able to mount up a defense and protect Soveriegn.

Modifié par Urazz, 07 juillet 2010 - 12:16 .

[Docbrown777]

Saving the council was a very easy choice. Much easier then deciding to save or destroy the Collector base in ME2. Even if you hate the council's guts that doesn't warrant letting a huge ship and crew get destroyed in the process.



Let's say Richard Nixon is aboard a US aircraft carrier that is under attack. Would any commander in their right mind no matter how harsh and cold of a thinker they may be just leave the carrier to sink? Either because they hate Nixon or because they don't think it is worth it to save such a large ship and crew? Even the strongest and most anti-hero character would have trouble deciding to let such a thing happen.



Good military commanders never leave units behind just to die. Now, there are cases of small groups not being able to be retrieved but a force of 5,000 or 10,000 just being left to be overrun is unheard of. The only time groups that large are left for dead is when there is no aid available to send.

[xI extremist Ix]

If the universe is to be united, the central government needs to be there.



The turians have the strongest military and the most dreadnoughts 39,

The Asari are used as mediators and have the second most dreadnoughts 20,

The Salarians are the best infiltrators and have 16 dreadnoughts,



The Alliance only has 8 dreadnoughts, and needs the trust of these three peoples to increase it to a total of 83.



The volus have no army, the Elcor do not like subtle change (being on the council would freak them), the Hanar are too polite for combat, the Drell aren't numerous enough, and the Krogan are shattered.



That is why I saved the council.

[lovgreno]

Many good reasons here. There are strong political and military tactical reasons to save the flagship. I would like to add one though: Airquote the turian councilour back after I save him in ME3.

[Nerevar-as]

At that moment Sovereign is trspped as Shepard has control of the citadel, so it seems a low risk without going into metagaming. Had they shown how powerful Sovereign was before (taking hits from a whole fleet without moving and destroying them at the same time, not just the ramming scene earlier) I probably wouldn´t have risked it in my first playthrough or playing a more pragmatic Shepard.

Otherwise, it saves a good ship, far more lives than are lost as long as you care they were asari and not human and if you were mostly renegade the ending scene is the best IMHO, even Udina acts badass when they offer the council seat.

[Nightwriter]

I had stopped Saren from handing over control of the Citadel to Sovereign. Sovereign could not open the Citadel Relay.

Joker told me he could save the Destiny Ascension. I believed him.

[GGRush]

FourSixEight wrote...

I personally wanted to save the Council because A) I'm playing as a Shepard that is in favor of peace between humans and aliens, and I have a very strong feeling that keeping the Council alive and not siding with Cerberus is going to provide a huge payoff. Because if there isn't, what would be the point of the whole 'save the council' option in the first place? There has to be some benefit to saving them.

And if by the time ME3 rolls around, and the Council is refusing to help despite me giving the finger to Cerberus, I will put my mission on hold, go directly to the Citadel, purchase the biggest piece of Sovereign's wreckage I can acquire, and BLUDGEON them over the head with it, screaming 'AH YES, REAPERS' until their heads cave in.

Then, I'll elect Tali, Garrus, and Legion as the new Councilmembers and be on my merry way.

You could look it this way but if Bioware really does what you said in I'll be pretty angry.
Cerberus rebuilt you, believed the reapers, gives you lots of fundings, a new ship, a full crew of talented individuals, information and all those damn dossiers, and yet you still consult and seek help from the council/alliance, who blame on geth and send you to fight geth, refuse the true threat, give you absolutely no funding in ME1/2, no specialist /  dossier, only a bit of information? That's more than illogical or idealistic; that's also totally ungrateful.
TIM probably does not deserve the collector's base but it's certainly not logical to undermine Cerberus's operations, file Cerberus files to the alliance/council or talk about hate for Cerberus everyday.

[Bluko]

Well the way I see it Spectres are sworn to serve the Council. If you let the Council die then you ultimately fail in your duty as being a Spectre. Saving the Council and Destiny Ascension just makes sense.

1. Saving the Council is paramount. They are the heart of galactic government. Letting them die just risks galactic instability which does not improve the odds for defeating the Reapers.
2. The Destiny Ascension is essentially the flagship of the Council Fleets. Letting it go down is not only bad for morale it also loses us our most capable Dreadnaught. Also rebuilding a few Cruisers is probably easier then rebuilding the largest Dreadnaught.
3. The 5th Fleet is suppose to protect the Citadel/Council. Also it's somewhat expected that military personal risk their own lives to protect those who are in danger.

[Nightwriter]

GGRush wrote...

FourSixEight wrote...

I personally wanted to save the Council because A) I'm playing as a Shepard that is in favor of peace between humans and aliens, and I have a very strong feeling that keeping the Council alive and not siding with Cerberus is going to provide a huge payoff. Because if there isn't, what would be the point of the whole 'save the council' option in the first place? There has to be some benefit to saving them.

And if by the time ME3 rolls around, and the Council is refusing to help despite me giving the finger to Cerberus, I will put my mission on hold, go directly to the Citadel, purchase the biggest piece of Sovereign's wreckage I can acquire, and BLUDGEON them over the head with it, screaming 'AH YES, REAPERS' until their heads cave in.

Then, I'll elect Tali, Garrus, and Legion as the new Councilmembers and be on my merry way.

You could look it this way but if Bioware really does what you said in I'll be pretty angry.
Cerberus rebuilt you, believed the reapers, gives you lots of fundings, a new ship, a full crew of talented individuals, information and all those damn dossiers, and yet you still consult and seek help from the council/alliance, who blame on geth and send you to fight geth, refuse the true threat, give you absolutely no funding in ME1/2, no specialist /  dossier, only a bit of information? That's more than illogical or idealistic; that's also totally ungrateful.
TIM probably does not deserve the collector's base but it's certainly not logical to undermine Cerberus's operations, file Cerberus files to the alliance/council or talk about hate for Cerberus everyday.

Well, it's important to understand you can't just judge a group based on what they do for you.

You have to judge them based on their beliefs and views as well, and most importantly their motives and intentions (which are sinister).

And more importantly than that, even, you have to judge them by their actions. Torture, murder, assault. We must look at these things, as well.

It's unrealistic to say all of Cerberus is EVIL EVIL EVILLLLL!!! But we can't say that they're better than the Council just because of what they do for us personally.

I'll tell you one thing, the Council is no better though. I spent game 2 going, "Everyone sucks. Everyone. F*ck it, I'm going pirate. Jack had the right idea all along."

[lovgreno]

The Council are still big and powerfull so I think it's still wise to keep them friendly even if Shepard have to swallow his/her pride often. They are certanly worth saving the Destiny Ascension for considering everything else. I also belive the Council will act if they have some substantial evidence. They may very well already do so secretely to avoid panic.

Modifié par lovgreno, 07 juillet 2010 - 02:32 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

My justification. The turian councilor deserves a worse death than that.

[BLOODFRENZY54]

I didn't save the council because I thought there would be huge repercussions. I thought If I sent ships to save the council, we wouldn't have enough ships, and we would've lost the citadel. Sovereign is huge, I wanted every available ship to take it on. I didn't know that choosing to save them or letting them die didn't have a "Mass Effect" in the sequel.



Also, people are saying that if you choose to let the council die, they're all replaced by humans. I don't remember this being mentioned, but if this is true I'm going to go back and save them. I want to have humanity being seen as a good guy to the other species, not hated. I thought losing the council wouldn't matter, that they would just be replaced by members of their own species. I look pro-human, which I don't like. So I guess going back and saving them would be a good Idea.



We'll have to see if any of it really matters anyway in ME3. I made the choices I would make in both ME1 and 2 (paragon), I may not like some of the consequences, but, oh well.

[Pacifien]

NICKjnp wrote...
What was your justification for not saving them. They are the head of the Galactic community. Letting them die seemed pointless. It seemed like people just wanted them to die because they didn't like them.

Because none of it matters if Sovereign opens up the Citadel Mass Relay. That's the only reason.

The rest is simply justifying that reason to people who think you can have your cake and eat it, too.

Save 10,000 lives. Risk Sovereign opening the relay.

Save a crippled ship where the mass effect generators are offline. Risk Sovereign opening the relay.

Save a powerful dreadnought for future battles. Risk Sovereign opening the relay.

Save the Council for a stable political system. Risk Sovereign opening the relay.

Shepard has temporary control of the station. Risk losing control of the station to Sovereign.

Attack the Geth ships to prevent flanking maneuvers and oh, it is on! You want to talk about battle tactics in three dimensional space, let's talk about battle tactics in three dimensional space. In a battle where we have absolutely no tactical information aside from what's happening to the Destiny Ascension. Let's discuss this. Even though I already know the end result is me clawing at the sky screaming "What the ****? What the ****?!"

I'm calm. It's cool, man. All cool.

[NICKjnp]

Pacifien wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...
What was your justification for not saving them. They are the head of the Galactic community. Letting them die seemed pointless. It seemed like people just wanted them to die because they didn't like them.

Because none of it matters if Sovereign opens up the Citadel Mass Relay. That's the only reason.

The rest is simply justifying that reason to people who think you can have your cake and eat it, too.

Save 10,000 lives. Risk Sovereign opening the relay.

Save a crippled ship where the mass effect generators are offline. Risk Sovereign opening the relay.

Save a powerful dreadnought for future battles. Risk Sovereign opening the relay.

Save the Council for a stable political system. Risk Sovereign opening the relay.

Shepard has temporary control of the station. Risk losing control of the station to Sovereign.

Attack the Geth ships to prevent flanking maneuvers and oh, it is on! You want to talk about battle tactics in three dimensional space, let's talk about battle tactics in three dimensional space. In a battle where we have absolutely no tactical information aside from what's happening to the Destiny Ascension. Let's discuss this. Even though I already know the end result is me clawing at the sky screaming "What the ****? What the ****?!"

I'm calm. It's cool, man. All cool.

Why even worry about opening the station... there is a donut ring in the back.  People complain about plot holes in the second game... but damn.... there is giant plot hole in center of the station.

Also... you humans are all racist against reave!

Modifié par NICKjnp, 07 juillet 2010 - 04:25 .

[Pacifien]

NICKjnp wrote...
*snip*
Why even worry about opening the station... there is a donut ring in the back.  People complain about plot holes in the second game... but damn.... there is giant plot hole in center of the station.

Actually figured that one out in another thread.

[II Sl4sh3r II]

I killed the council, because I thought I'd waste ships trying to save them and I wanted Sovereign dead.

[Zivos]

One reason I wanted to save them....I had played ME2 enough times to know I wanted to see the Council alive for once. 

But for a real reason? 

I sometimes thought about a Paragon character the way another might view a knight or samurai.  Fight for honor; challenge those who insult lady, flag or prowess; and protect and save your lord when in trouble.  No matter the hell they put you through or how little credit you may be given, you save them as long as you're still breathing, can hold a blade or gun, etc.

Seeing the Council after I'd saved them, it was disappointing to see they -still-, for the most part, didn't acknowledge the Reaper threat.  But they at least reinstate Spec status for Shep and give him/her to go-ahead to work with Cerberus against the Collectors, so it's at least a STEP in the right direction.

[Ooga600]

because if i don't save the council i'm a racist... wait...

[Jaron Oberyn]

I let them die, gladly. But when I imported to ME2 and the new council members were jerks, well I decided it might be better to have the old ones. They're not all that bad. At least the Asari and Salarian aren't that annoying. But that Turian... Don't even get me started. I hope theres a way to quote him sarcastically in the third game when the reapers do show up. And then let him beg me to save him, and then I'll just leave. (Bioware that's a renegade interrupt idea BTW if you hadn't noticed. Feel free to use it. I know, I'm a nice guy what can I say?)



-Polite

[mosor]

I happily killed the council on most of my play throughs because.


1. Sovereign was the immediate threat. While there may have been time to save the Ascension, the amount of ships lost may have hampered killing sovereign. Besides, the turians and asari were doing a decent job of distracting the geth, while the alliance went for the kill.

2. The Ascension is just one ship. Big as it is, it's not going to make or break the war against the reapers. Besides, the cost of saving it was 8 cruisers and 2400 humans. 8 cruisers is worth one asari dreadnought to me.

3. I didn't feel any sympathy for the council during my adventures. I didn't shed a tear seeing them gone.

4. Seeing the council decapitated seemed like a glorious opportunity for humanity to seize power, so I took it.

Modifié par mosor, 07 juillet 2010 - 10:03 .

[adneate]

What is this "Alien Council" and this "Destiny Ascension" we have dismissed these claims.

[wizardryforever]

People can argue point and counterpoint on this all day long and not sway anyone's opinion one way or the other.  Those who typically save the council are going to keep doing their duty, no matter what, and those who let the council die are going to keep being cold-hearted bastards, no matter what.  No one is going to change their minds here.

That said, I save the council on all but my rare ultra-Renegade playthroughs simply because saving the galaxy for a few more years doesn't make sense if they die from being disorganized.  If you let them die (or "focus on Sovereign", who isn't even available to shoot yet), it is a massive hit to galactic stability, even if you replace the council with another alien one.  People saw that the Alliance willingly witheld support for the Council in its time of need; why would anyone think that the Alliance could be trusted after that, with a council seat, let alone the whole council?  There's also all the other reasons people give for saving the council, like not allowing the geth to flank you, saving more lives than you lose, etc.