118 réponses à ce sujet

[exskeeny]

i saved them because i was playing a paragon shepard. then i let them die the next time because i was playing renegade. as simple as that.

[ARK of ILKS]

I did it for... POWER TO HUMANITY!!!!!!!!!! & CERERUS.

[ARK of ILKS]

exskeeny wrote...

i saved them because i was playing a paragon shepard. then i let them die the next time because i was playing renegade. as simple as that.

I played the game paragon and still let them die.

[Pacifien]

wizardryforever wrote...
That said, I save the council on all but my rare ultra-Renegade playthroughs simply because saving the galaxy for a few more years doesn't make sense if they die from being disorganized.  If you let them die (or "focus on Sovereign", who isn't even available to shoot yet), it is a massive hit to galactic stability, even if you replace the council with another alien one.*snip*

Throwing the system into chaos isn't going to lead to extinction. It might suck for a long while, but the various civilizations will find a way to keep going. It might simply turn Citadel Space into Terminus Space.

wizardryforever wrote...
There's also all the other reasons people give for saving the council, like not allowing the geth to flank you*snip*

Wonder how many ships it would take to actually flank a fleet. Because I can tell you that flanking from one direction isn't going to be the massive advantage you think.

One argument would be that the fleet was given enough time to wipe out the geth before concentrating on Sovereign. Lame cinematics, I say. The ward arms should have been in the process of opening from the minute Shepard had control of them. The only difference there should have been is whether the Alliance Fleet ignored the opening arms so they can save the Destiny Ascension or headed straight for Sovereign.

Unfortunately, Mass Effect is anything but a space combat simulator. You concentrate on Sovereign, then it's unfair that the cinematics for the paragon choice show the Fleet being perfectly capable of saving the Destiny Ascension and having the needed firepower to destroy Sovereign. You save the Destiny Ascension, then it should be unfair that the cinematics for the neutral/renegade choice show there are no geth flanking the Fleet while they attack Sovereign.

In the end, the only part about that choice that mattered was the roleplay aspect.

[ARK of ILKS]

Shandepared wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...


That said, I save the council on all but my rare ultra-Renegade playthroughs simply because saving the galaxy for a few more years doesn't make sense if they die from being disorganized.

Why do you think this would happen?

If you save the Destiny Ascension but then don't have the forces needed to take down Sovereign the galaxy is dead RIGHT NOW without ever getting a CHANCE to fight that disorganized war you are so afraid of.

I understand your reasons, they aren't totally unsound, but if you fail to take down Sovereign the galaxy is going to come to an end right now. That's it, the Reapers pour through the relay and the war is over before it even got started.

What he said...

[wizardryforever]

Shandepared wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...


That said, I save the council on all but my rare ultra-Renegade playthroughs simply because saving the galaxy for a few more years doesn't make sense if they die from being disorganized.

Why do you think this would happen?

If you save the Destiny Ascension but then don't have the forces needed to take down Sovereign the galaxy is dead RIGHT NOW without ever getting a CHANCE to fight that disorganized war you are so afraid of.

I understand your reasons, they aren't totally unsound, but if you fail to take down Sovereign the galaxy is going to come to an end right now. That's it, the Reapers pour through the relay and the war is over before it even got started.

Okay, I'll have to explain that a bit more, apparently.  The Reapers are coming whether you stop Sovereign or not.  So if you decide not to save the council, then it throws the government into chaos.  We know this from ME2, as the other races lose respect for humanity for failing to protect the council when it could have.  The galaxy is on the fast track to war among the various races (asari withdraw from protecting the citadel, turians ignore restrictions on dreadnaughts) if you don't save the council, making it that much easier for the Reapers when they do show up.
So in other words, if you save the council, galactic unity is preserved (flawed as the system may be), but if you let them die that unity is shattered.  In short, if you focus on Sovereign, you are only postponing the inevitable, and making it more difficult to combat the Reapers later, but you save a few more ships (whoop-dee-doo).  But if you save the council, you lose a few more ships, but unity is preserved, making life easier down the road when the Reapers do show up.  You're still only postponing the inevitable, but you aren't burning bridges on the way.  "Focusing on Sovereign" just buys you a few years of respite before the Reapers arrive, and you're unprepared.  It's a short term solution even if you only consider what you know at the time of the decision.
Didn't the two of us already discuss this at some length, Shand?

Modifié par wizardryforever, 07 juillet 2010 - 11:12 .

[Pacifien]

I think postponing the inevitable is better than dying right then and there. Even if the Reapers are still on their way, the destruction of Sovereign bought everyone time to come up with a new solution.

[Kitteh303]

At first I did not save them because I thought that abandoning the ascension would be more "productive" in that the alliance fleet could concentrate on sovereign. (Plus I was a little tired of the council giving me crap so I took my anger out on them.)



BUT. Once mass effect 2 came out, I realized that I preferred the outcome if you saved them. People seem to respect humanity more instead of fearing them. Plus you get to see the turian councilor do finger quotes.



So basically, I saved them to explore the different options in the game and see what happened.

[Pacifien]

Man, I must be the only paragon out there who prefers the colder reception the Citadel gives you from leaving the Destiny Ascension to its fate. Goes with the whole Shepard alone against the universe vibe that's already going through ME2.

[langelog]

The Reapers aren't just a threat to humanity, they're a threat to every sentient species in the galaxy and we need to stand united. If the leaders of the council species were to die, and humans were blamed, sure we may hold more power over them, but actions such as this won't win hearts and minds. The Alliance and Humanity are honored as heros for their sacrifice after the battle, and this strengthens the trust in our species and shows we are willing to make sacrifices for the good of the galaxy. It was with this understanding that the council granted us a seat on the council. When the Reapers come, the entire galaxy will be united and ready to stand against them. Simply put, alone we fall, but united we stand!

Modifié par langelog, 07 juillet 2010 - 11:20 .

[Kitteh303]

Pacifien wrote...

Man, I must be the only paragon out there who prefers the colder reception the Citadel gives you from leaving the Destiny Ascension to its fate. Goes with the whole Shepard alone against the universe vibe that's already going through ME2.

In the end, though, Shepard's going to need some help, I think.

[wizardryforever]

langelog wrote...

The Reapers aren't just a threat to humanity, they're a threat to every sentient species in the galaxy and we need to stand united. If the leaders of the council species were to die, and humans were blamed, sure we may hold more power over them, but actions such as this won't win hearts and minds. The Alliance and Humanity are honored as heros for their sacrifice after the battle, and this strengthens the trust in our species and shows we are willing to make sacrifices for the good of the galaxy. It was with this understanding that the council granted us a seat on the council. When the Reapers come, the entire galaxy will be united and ready to stand against them. Simply put, alone we fall, but united we stand!

Well said.  Okeer voice: I approve.

[adneate]

So basically people save the council because of meta-gaming, and then retcon their experience to fit knowledge that they could not have known at the time.

[hegth]

I saved the council to make all the others species see humanity in a more friendly way, because if I had let them die there would be disdain towards humans, also I wanted so badly the council kissed my feet for being wrong, but that will have to wait to me3 hehe.

[Pacifien]

I think the reason why every argument in favor of saving the Destiny Ascension fails to those who believe otherwise is that the only thing that matters at that point is the destruction of Sovereign. It doesn't matter if humanity is hated, if there is chaos afterwards, if there is no unity -- none of it matters if Sovereign succeeds. The Reapers pour through right then and there and then all this discussion of what might have been in a universe of love and harmony is simply a dream. Now everyone is dead.

Just so happens it doesn't work out that way if you do save the Destiny Ascension. Lucky you.

[Pacifien]

Kitteh303 wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
Man, I must be the only paragon out there who prefers the colder reception the Citadel gives you from leaving the Destiny Ascension to its fate. Goes with the whole Shepard alone against the universe vibe that's already going through ME2.

In the end, though, Shepard's going to need some help, I think.

At the moment, my Shepard is likely to have the support of the Migrant Fleet, the Geth, the Rachni, and the Krogan. But notice the pattern: none of them are Citadel species.

[wizardryforever]

Pacifien wrote...

I think the reason why every argument in favor of saving the Destiny Ascension fails to those who believe otherwise is that the only thing that matters at that point is the destruction of Sovereign. It doesn't matter if humanity is hated, if there is chaos afterwards, if there is no unity -- none of it matters if Sovereign succeeds. The Reapers pour through right then and there and then all this discussion of what might have been in a universe of love and harmony is simply a dream. Now everyone is dead.
Just so happens it doesn't work out that way if you do save the Destiny Ascension. Lucky you.

Right, and you have no reason to believe that it wouldn't work, other than pessimism.  Like I said, the Reapers are coming regardless.  If you stop Sovereign only to have the whole galaxy hate your guts, how is that a victory?  Just because you'll die a few years later than you would if you did what you swore to do when you became a Spectre?  You know, be the council's first and last line of defense, be that ideal, that symbol that the galaxy looks up to?  Yeah, you're right, living a few more measly years is totally worth it, just ask Sidonis.

[adneate]

wizardryforever wrote...

Right, and you have no reason to believe that it wouldn't work, other than pessimism.  Like I said, the Reapers are coming regardless.  If you stop Sovereign only to have the whole galaxy hate your guts, how is that a victory?  Just because you'll die a few years later than you would if you did what you swore to do when you became a Spectre?  You know, be the council's first and last line of defense, be that ideal, that symbol that the galaxy looks up to?  Yeah, you're right, living a few more measly years is totally worth it, just ask Sidonis.

What are the other Council races going to do to stop you? Their fleets are wiped out in the surprise attack even if you do save the council. So a bunch of militarily impotent people like you? If we're going to play the speculation game you're irresponsible decision to sacrifice Alliance warships means you don't have the firepower in your fleet to defeat the reapers and you all die anyway. But since everyone likes humanity while they're slowing being wiped out by the reapers it's okay right?

[Docbrown777]

Plus if you save the council and then they proceed to act like ****hats in ME2 you can tell them to cram it where the sun don't shine. So you save everyone's life but still get to tell them off. It's win win.

[Pacifien]

wizardryforever wrote...
Right, and you have no reason to believe that it wouldn't work, other than pessimism.  Like I said, the Reapers are coming regardless.  If you stop Sovereign only to have the whole galaxy hate your guts, how is that a victory?  Just because you'll die a few years later than you would if you did what you swore to do when you became a Spectre?  You know, be the council's first and last line of defense, be that ideal, that symbol that the galaxy looks up to?  Yeah, you're right, living a few more measly years is totally worth it, just ask Sidonis.

I'd say its just as pessimistic to assume the whole galaxy is going to hate my guts and that it's nothing but downhill from there. Already mentioned four civilizations who probably don't care that I sacrificed the Destiny Ascension and will join me regardless.

[Kitteh303]

Pacifien wrote...

Kitteh303 wrote...

Pacifien wrote...
Man, I must be the only paragon out there who prefers the colder reception the Citadel gives you from leaving the Destiny Ascension to its fate. Goes with the whole Shepard alone against the universe vibe that's already going through ME2.

In the end, though, Shepard's going to need some help, I think.

At the moment, my Shepard is likely to have the support of the Migrant Fleet, the Geth, the Rachni, and the Krogan. But notice the pattern: none of them are Citadel species.

Point taken. Still, I'd rather have the Migrant Fleet, the Geth, the Rachni, the Krogan, AND the Citadel species on my side.

[Eternalist]

I didn't save the council, not really. I saved the 10,000 crewmembers who apparently spurred the galaxy to hate humans posthumously. No, I still would've killed the Turian council member only, given the chance.

[Barquiel]

adneate wrote...

What are the other Council races going to do to stop you? Their fleets are wiped out in the surprise attack even if you do save the council. So a bunch of militarily impotent people like you?r

As of 2183, the turians had 37 dreadnoughts, the asari had 21, the salarians  had 16, and the Alliance had 6 with another under construction. During the year 2185, the dreadnought count is 39 turians, 20 asari, 16 salarians, and 8 humans.

http://masseffect.wi...ht#Dreadnoughts

...military impotent?