116 réponses à ce sujet

[David Gaider]

I think it's an interesting idea.

For one, I think some people underestimate the social effect that occurs when people believe they have anonymity. Even the suggestion that people might not be completely anonymous is going to change how they act-- without a doubt, in my mind.

Will it actually stop forum trolling and other unpleasantness? I doubt it. Like measures to combat piracy, it probably won't stop the truly committed from finding a way around these obstacles. It might make them rarer, however, and thus allow moderators a better chance at dealing with them. And that, combined with the social aspect, makes such a change an intriguing possibility. 

As for the "invasion of privacy" aspect, I'm not so sure about that. Some people are acting as if they have a right to anonymity as well as a right to post on a private gaming forum, when in fact neither of those rights exist. I wouldn't agree to private information being revealed without one's consent, but all such a forum needs to do is require such consent in order for you to post there. You don't want to give that consent? Then you're free to go elsewhere, aren't you? The idea that Blizzard is required to allow a WoW player to post on their forums and take the good with the bad no matter what exists only in the minds of the entitled, and really has nothing to do with the game. Forums (like this one) exist as a convenient means for fans of a game to get together and communicate with each other and (potentially) with the developers, nothing more.

Would we ever do that here? I have no idea-- but I imagine we and a great number of other companies will be watching what develops with interest. At the very least I have no doubt there will be a great furore as the sacred cows of internet warriors everywhere get threatened.

[the_one_54321]

Darth Gaider has pretty much perfectly voiced my own thoughts on this.



I would go elsewhere, most likely. But that's the point. No one is twisting your arm to do anything.

[Ponce de Leon]

Watch one company possibly failing as you gain a precious future experience? Sounds quite logical. I still wouldn't like people to know who I am. Damn, if I know how much moderator powers go, I think they might even see my registration email... which is "name" and "family name" @ something. anything.

I like however the social site because they actually don't force you to tell about you. Minimum that you could say about you is a status update. That's what I like about this place (not having in my mind the incredible strange bugs mozilla is having, while chrome isn't).



PS : as far as privacy goes, I am happy that BioWare made my name appear in two of their games. Thank you BioWare

[Mordaedil]

As you say David, they'll probably go elsewhere. Probably to Private Servers.

[tmp7704]

David Gaider wrote...

As for the "invasion of privacy" aspect, I'm not so sure about that. Some people are acting as if they have a right to anonymity as well as a right to post on a private gaming forum, when in fact neither of those rights exist. I wouldn't agree to private information being revealed without one's consent, but all such a forum needs to do is require such consent in order for you to post there. You don't want to give that consent? Then you're free to go elsewhere, aren't you? The idea that Blizzard is required to allow a WoW player to post on their forums and take the good with the bad no matter what exists only in the minds of the entitled, and really has nothing to do with the game. Forums (like this one) exist as a convenient means for fans of a game to get together and communicate with each other and (potentially) with the developers, nothing more.

I think this "take it or leave it" attitude works both ways, though -- if Blizzard claims they are making these changes to create a "thriving social gaming community" or however they choose to dress it, then it may not be in their own interest to actively discourage people from participating in said community. Because without participation the "thriving" part isn't going to work out very well, is it? Of course as long as by "thriving social gaming community" they don't really mean "automated spam of Facebook accounts with updates from our games to serve as cheap 'pseudo-word-of-mouth' advertising" i.e. something that doesn't require any sort of actual participation from human beings.

As for whether the lack of anonymity is going to make people shape up when it comes to communication over intrawebs... Someone pointed out already in another place, that the Facebook itself shows this is very much a pipe dream. Having a name attached to their posts doesn't stop thousands of people from posting the dumbest things daily there; why would that change out of sudden now on a game forum? The idiots by the very fact of being idiots aren't going to be concerned about such details like potential accountability.

[Noir201]

The fact it's happening on the wow forums, doesn't leave me much hope that it will help the community, as someone who spent many number of years on mmo forums, three on the wow forums, in alot of cases, it will make alot of the insult posts more hurtfull, the wow forums are the worse social forum in the world.

Would it work on say these forums, i think it would cause (atleast the dragonage forums) you have a great mature lot of people here, but when Blizzard thinks of something like this, you have to look again at the reasons, cause they not the company they once was.

[BroBear Berbil]

David Gaider wrote...

I think it's an interesting idea.

For one, I think some people underestimate the social effect that occurs when people believe they have anonymity. Even the suggestion that people might not be completely anonymous is going to change how they act-- without a doubt, in my mind.

Will it actually stop forum trolling and other unpleasantness? I doubt it. Like measures to combat piracy, it probably won't stop the truly committed from finding a way around these obstacles. It might make them rarer, however, and thus allow moderators a better chance at dealing with them. And that, combined with the social aspect, makes such a change an intriguing possibility. 

As for the "invasion of privacy" aspect, I'm not so sure about that. Some people are acting as if they have a right to anonymity as well as a right to post on a private gaming forum, when in fact neither of those rights exist. I wouldn't agree to private information being revealed without one's consent, but all such a forum needs to do is require such consent in order for you to post there. You don't want to give that consent? Then you're free to go elsewhere, aren't you? The idea that Blizzard is required to allow a WoW player to post on their forums and take the good with the bad no matter what exists only in the minds of the entitled, and really has nothing to do with the game. Forums (like this one) exist as a convenient means for fans of a game to get together and communicate with each other and (potentially) with the developers, nothing more.

The trolling angle is pretty much the face value of this Real-ID change. With Blizzard's recent deal with facebook and stated goals to take Real-ID even further I think a lot of players are worried about how much of their privacy will be at stake down the line. As for trolling, will it stop? Probably to some degree but so will almost all other posting judging by the response to this so far. Even forum MVPs (particularly helpful posters) have said they will not post on the new forums. It's killing the patient to cure the disease if this was their only goal behind the decision.

You're certainly right that if people don't want to give their consent they can go to other forums but I have two points to make on this.

First, in order to post on the forums you need an active account with a subscription. While the subscription doesn't entitle you to post it does, in part, pay for the upkeep of the forums - so it's not like a free service like these forums.

The other point I would make is that when customers seek technical or customer support in game they are often sent to the forums to seek additional assistance from Blizzard there. With Blizzard's new forums a person would not have access to this support if they refuse to publicly divulge their full name. Trace routes are also frequently posted in the technical support forums so those that do agree and then need to post trace routes are giving away another bit of information that could pinpoint their location. 3rd party forums can address other needs as well, if not better (in the case of Elitist Jerks), than Blizzard's official forums however.

Modifié par OnionXI, 07 juillet 2010 - 04:54 .

[David Gaider]

OnionXI wrote...
The trolling angle is pretty much the face value of this Real-ID change. With Blizzard's recent deal with facebook and stated goals to take Real-ID even further I think a lot of players are worried about how much of their privacy will be at stake down the line. As for trolling, will it stop? Probably to some degree but so will almost all other posting judging by the response to this so far. Even forum MVPs (particularly helpful posters) have said they will not post on the new forums. It's killing the patient to cure the disease if this was their only goal behind the decision.

I'm sure many people will say they'll never post again-- you can pretty much count on internet folk to be overly dramatic as a rule. Will they actually do so? Perhaps many will. Perhaps many others will be more inclined to post on such a forum once it is no longer riddled with unpleasant trolls and people who post their every angry thought without thinking. The assumption that a forum without those specific people posting there has no value is quite the big assumption, I think.

I can't really comment on the Facebook thing, as I don't know anything about it. I'd wonder how much of that is just a rumor, however. Certainly you'll have people conjuring worst-case scenarios left and right, when the truth (as it usually is) generally lies somewhere in the middle and is much more boring.

First, in order to post on the forums you need an active account with a subscription. While the subscription doesn't entitle you to post it does, in part, pay for the upkeep of the forums - so it's not like a free service like these forums.

That's like saying that the money BioWare makes off of the games we sell goes towards supporting these forums, isn't it? Or, by extension, that the money made from those games goes towards supporting our salaries. While I'm certain one could draw such a connection by way of "I'm a customer and thus I pay for everything you do", I don't think you can make any direct connection beyond that. Blizzard pays for those forums because they feel they provide value to their fans. If they didn't feel that way they wouldn't have the forums, period. Perhaps they're getting close to feeling that way now? Who knows?

The other point I would make is that when customers seek technical or customer support in game they are often sent to the forums to seek additional assistance from Blizzard there. With Blizzard's new forums a person would not have access to this support if they refuse to publicly divulge their full name.

That is a good point. One would assume they have other means of providing technical support, but if they don't then that seems like a lot to ask.

[the_one_54321]

If they're paying for the game, they have to follow the guidelines of the game license agreement for access to technical support. Not that I view this as a good or beneficial thing. Just that again, it's not like anyone is twisting their arm. It is what it is. If you think it's bad enough to make the fun of playing the game not good enough, then opt out.

[DM Veil]

I really do not believe slapping a name next to a troll's post is going to keep them from doing what they do. It might stop some, but there will still be plenty more of them out there that won't be scared to troll someone. I moderate on a fansite for a different MMO and our off topic section sees a lot of people posting how they troll people on Facebook, they really don't care that it's their real information. 

Of course on Facebook you can lie about your identity and all is well; with Blizzard it's not so easy. Most accounts were made long before Real-ID was thought about and people gave their real information under the promise of privacy as stated in Blizzard's Privacy Policy at the time. Unfortunately there is no way to change the name on your Battle.net account without calling Blizzard and having them do it, and I find it really hard to believe they would allow you to change your name to a fake one.

So if it goes live you're stuck with either participating in their community and risking your identity falling into the wrong hands, or no longer seeking help from their tech support forums (which they send you to for certain issues) and other handy features. I foresee a lot of discussion minded folk moving on to fan sites and the "thriving" community on the main social network forums dwindling down. What's so great about that?

On the surface they say the change is to fight trolls, but they are easily ignored and people come to learn this when they spend time on the internet. Under the surface I can tell this is about the $$ they are getting from Facebook to integrate their features into Battle.net; the trolls are just a bonus for them that they can use to dress it up and spin it to the public.
investor.activision.com/releasedetail.cfm

[Loerwyn]

DM Veil raised a point which I have to really spring from:

Most accounts were made long before Real-ID was thought about and people gave their real information under the promise of privacy as stated in Blizzard's Privacy Policy at the time.

If this use of first names was done from the start, then fine, that's not a problem as such. But as I see it, this change is Blizzard asking a lot from their customers. A real lot

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

This just becomes (yet another) selling point of Knights of the Old Republic, really. "We care about your privacy!"



The solution to trolling on the WoW forums isn't disclosure of people's names. It's putting a forum mute on an account after 2-3 warnings total to any character on the account. Since it's 1 account per person, no shared account, if that burns someone, they need to learn to ToS.



Account mutes are possible too. Someone in my raid wrote an enormous scathing post regarding the idiotic story of the squidmen in the first WoW expansion. Next day, he got the eternal forum mute.

[tmp7704]

David Gaider wrote...

Perhaps many others will be more inclined to post on such a forum once it is no longer riddled with unpleasant trolls and people who post their every angry thought without thinking. The assumption that a forum without those specific people posting there has no value is quite the big assumption, I think.

This however hinges on equally big assumption that the unpleasant trolls and people who post every angry thought without thinking will actually stop their behaviour once there's a name attached to their posts.

There is one problem here. Namely, please think carefully exactly why some people choose to believe having the name associated with stupidity posted on the intrawebs is supposed to be scary prospect for people posting the stupid things.

I'll help, it tends to go along the lines of "he wouldn't dare to talk like that to my face because i'd beat the living **** out of him".

Now, suppose this theoretical scenario does indeed happen, and someone posting on forums under their real name does get the **** beaten out of them for being unpleasant. Or maybe not even for being unpleasant but just because the psychopath who did the beating didn't like their tone, easy to happen in forum posting.

The problematic part is -- what company in their right mind would want their name associated with such an event in the media, as theoretical enabler of this situation who provided important information which allowed the beating to take place? Especially in situation where the victim was innocent? (and before you hurry with "oh but they chose to post even though they didn't have to" consider revealing personal data of customers is also something the company chooses to do even though they don't have to. And do so despite realizing this may put their customers at this sort of risk. And how many people would even care about details like that or pay attention to anything but juicy headlines)

[Khayness]

I blame the x-realm features. Back in the days the server community was so strong if you trolled hard on the realm forums a bunch of guys showed up from the opposing faction and ruined your game for a few hours.

We even had a list of annoying people with prices on their heads and it was a fun forum game to collect points if you could prove that you killed the forementioned idiots.

[JHorwath]

I don't think this will really change anything. People use their real names on facebook and myspace and still act like jerks, retards, and all around bad people. They just don't care. The only thing is with a person's real name attached to things a potential worker or even law enforcement would have an easier time finding things.

I don't think by people using their real name the trolling will stop. Now a days people are stricken with the jerk virus.  FYI, I use my real name anyway so I don't really care.

Modifié par JHorwath, 07 juillet 2010 - 06:16 .

[aries1001]

I'm on two forums for adventure games where I use my real life first name (or actually, I think I just was given my real first name when I applied for an account as a username). And yes, people generally behave more politely at thise forums for advenrure games. It has nothing do with the fact that people can, will or shall use their real first names. Generally speaking, those of us who play adventure games (like Le Chuk's Revenge, Dreamfall and the Sherlock Holmes games) are older than people who say frequent the forums for World of Warcraft. (or other MMO-forums).



The problem with people trolling and making trouble won't go away though, if you require people to use their real first name. As said, the real problem is this: People who frequent MMO-forums are generally younger than people who post here at Bioware and at other gaming sites. Maturity has learned us how to behave; many young kids behave poorly - generally speaking.



As for giving consent, it depends on what I'm giving consent to. In the EU (and in Denmark), it is against the law to sell or share any personal data at all to third parties. I wouldn't like to reveal my real last name as it is a very special one. And speaking of tech support - the tech people can find you through your account based on the info you gave when you first signed up, can't they...

[Noir201]

Also, as tmp pointed out, what say, to stop somebody who been atked on example, a pvp server, for hours and hours and snaped, find out the person who been making your game awfull, lives in the same area as you? and then go round and hurt that person or worse.

It's happen on facebook cause of stuff been said or other matters, people have gone round to a persons home, in same area or even otherside of the world, and done awfull things, if that happen cause Blizzard took this line of action, the company will be closed down, due to public outcry.

[BroBear Berbil]

aries1001 wrote...

I wouldn't like to reveal my real last name as it is a very special one. And speaking of tech support - the tech people can find you through your account based on the info you gave when you first signed up, can't they...

That's pretty much what the issue is. The Battle.net forums are going to display your first and last name in every post you make. I too have a distinct last name. The only people who share my last name in the U.S. are my father and it's of course my sister's maiden name. Beyond that only relatives in Cuba share the name - that I'm aware of. Needless to say, if you have a unique name you're much easier to locate.

I think you're missing the point on the tech support forums issue.

[JHorwath]

Noir201 wrote...

Also, as tmp pointed out, what say, to stop somebody who been atked on example, a pvp server, for hours and hours and snaped, find out the person who been making your game awfull, lives in the same area as you? and then go round and hurt that person or worse.
It's happen on facebook cause of stuff been said or other matters, people have gone round to a persons home, in same area or even otherside of the world, and done awfull things, if that happen cause Blizzard took this line of action, the company will be closed down, due to public outcry.

Why isn't facebook closed down then?

[the_one_54321]

Crazies have already attacked people in real life over WoW and other online games. That's no argument for anything.

[JHorwath]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Crazies have already attacked people in real life over WoW and other online games. That's no argument for anything.

Seriously, remember that hockey dad guy.  There are some crazy people out there.

[Noir201]

JHorwath wrote...

Noir201 wrote...

Also, as tmp pointed out, what say, to stop somebody who been atked on example, a pvp server, for hours and hours and snaped, find out the person who been making your game awfull, lives in the same area as you? and then go round and hurt that person or worse.
It's happen on facebook cause of stuff been said or other matters, people have gone round to a persons home, in same area or even otherside of the world, and done awfull things, if that happen cause Blizzard took this line of action, the company will be closed down, due to public outcry.

Why isn't facebook closed down then?

Cause facebock is a social network, which people can chose to block people, and select who see's you, and who you talk too, World of Warcraft is a game which you don't have as much control, why do you think facebook had to change who sees people profiles? because if they didn't do that, would have been more problems which would have seen a outcry to close it down.

True can blook people in wow, but that doesn't stop some people crossing the line, when pushed hard.

[JHorwath]

Noir201 wrote...

JHorwath wrote...

Noir201 wrote...

Also, as tmp pointed out, what say, to stop somebody who been atked on example, a pvp server, for hours and hours and snaped, find out the person who been making your game awfull, lives in the same area as you? and then go round and hurt that person or worse.
It's happen on facebook cause of stuff been said or other matters, people have gone round to a persons home, in same area or even otherside of the world, and done awfull things, if that happen cause Blizzard took this line of action, the company will be closed down, due to public outcry.

Why isn't facebook closed down then?

Cause facebock is a social network, which people can chose to block people, and select who see's you, and who you talk too, World of Warcraft is a game which you don't have as much control, why do you think facebook had to change who sees people profiles? because if they didn't do that, would have been more problems which would have seen a outcry to close it down.

True can blook people in wow, but that doesn't stop some people crossing the line, when pushed hard.

That makes sense. 

[Noir201]

As did your anwser <.<, the game age limit is 12 year olds+ which blizzard will be allowing anyone to find out who those kids are, now in england, the media isn't allowed to show or name anyone who under 18 when they go to courrt, wow doesn't have control over somebody who will use a account to insite, or induce fear on kids.

Example, somebody is pming joe, and insulting and says he found out he lives otherside of town, and says he going to come round to his house and hurt him, now everytime the kid hears a knock on the door, what do you think the kid will feel?

Tbh i wouldn't care if Blizzard do this, cause i don't play wow anymore, i'm just using the sit on the fence and seing things from a diffrent point of view as someone who use to play wow, but there is a huge difference from facebook and the game wow, with the attitudes of adults.