78 réponses à ce sujet

[Costin_Razvan]

You know, there's a reason more women then men don't like Anora....though I suspect that many men simply fall for her.

[Aurelet]

Well to quote Morrigan



Two things a man will always believe about a woman...

One..that she is weak

Two..that she desires him

[Costin_Razvan]

Although I might believe the first about quite a great deal of women ( not all though and especially not someone like Anora or Morrigan ), I ain't so stupid as to believe the second.

Thought you are right about some men.....

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 08 juillet 2010 - 02:42 .

[Vicious]

No one likes her as she refuses to "bend over prettily" for the PC, in a computer game where pretty much the people you meet are swayed by what you say without much coercion.

I think this is the root of the issue whether people say it or not.

But my perspective is different from most: I didn't bother trying to explain to Ser Cauthrien and thus influence betrayal. I never even knew she betrayed us at all, because my first playthrough I surrendered so my team could walk, and the next cutscene I got was Anora saying, "OMG WE MUST RESCUE TEH WARDEN!!!!"


It wasn't until I got on this forum that I found out she'd rat you out if you tried to talk with Ser Cauthrien.

Modifié par Vicious, 08 juillet 2010 - 02:59 .

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

Aurelet wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

But that's metagaming. What reason does your character have to put Anora on the throne? She seems quite concerned about the slavery in the Alienage when she sends you there and Alistair doesn't have much to say on the matter.

Oh I don't tell her I won't put her on the throne because of slaves.  I just don't trust her after she betrays me to Cauthrian.  And the little betrayal where she says she will support ME at the landsmeet before I free her.

As a few have pointed out she does that because she asks you to keep her disguised by saying hey "Here is Queen Anora" you basically betray her and possibly put her life in danger. In truth after the whole Orzammar political mess I found Anora's tactics quite mild she is a politician and this is a political event. Nobody is going to be completly honest or noble that is politics you find weak spots and exploit them and pounce on opportunities if you punish Anora for doing that then IMO that is a very very shallow reason why to hate her since nobody even Alistair or Eamon are on their best behavior during the Landsmeet. She is fightening for her well being she doesn't know what Alistair will do to her if she loses her crown. Being locked in a tower is better than execution, but still that is a high fall from grace for Anora she can lose her crown, father and teyrn in a matter of weeks. She is human after-all and doesn't want her Father to die if he can get redeemed she doesn't want to lose the crown of the kingdom she has ruled quite well for the five years. I'm not saying she is a saint or OMG how can you not like her because her pragmatic attitude could really annoy people, but I hate it when people say she betrays you to Cauthrine when in fact you betray her.

[Renul]

Let Logaihn live (just once) So you can talk to him about Anora. He even tells you that she played you. That's reason enough for me to hate someone.

[Sarah1281]

Only mildly played you. Her life WAS in danger...but from Howe and not her father so killing him was a good idea. And so what if she was less-than-honest? Why is that really such a huge thing? It was just politics and she was saying what she thought she had to to get elec...to get you on her side for the Landsmeet.

[Xandurpein]

Anora is, like Loghain and Alistair, a polarizing character. If you go against Alistair about Loghain at the Landsmeet he will not accept it, and if you go against Anora at the Landsmeet she won't accept it. Some people don't like morally ambiguous choices so they prefer to hate or belittle the one who they choose against, because that will remove an uncomfortable sense of guilt. In that respect some of the Anora hate is just a mirror of the Alistair hate.

There are of course other factors involved too. What your image of what a good politician should be and what type of leader Ferelden really needs. I can make very good arguments for both Anora and Alistair as leaders, but I think that if you did a survey, you would find that people who have some form of degree in political science would be more understanding of Anora as a ruler, than those who don't. Alistair on the other hand much more closely matches the traditional good fairy tale king.

I expect that any player who closely identifies themselves with the elves and play and elf character will tend to dislike Anora and prefer Alistair a lot, as he is a little more inclined to improve their position.

I'm sure there is a gender thing too. The fact that a male Couslands can marry Anora is bound to affect some. You see hints of a different Anora than the politician, while at the same time it's sufficiently vague to allow for a lot of speculation/fantasy. Some female players on the other hand loves the scene where Alistair finally, being hardened, becomes the strong sexy man at the Landsmeet they want, and see Anora as a threat to that.

Personally I think Anora is a much better choice as leader, but that is pure opinion as it hinges on what you define as "better". I certainly don't think it makes Anora a better human being than Alistair, and regardless of my opinion of Alistair or Anora as ruler, I don't really see any reason to hate either of them.

Anora has her foibles just as any other character does and, just as with Alistair, you can personally be the target for that foible at an inopportune moment if you make certain choices, but that is not in itself reason for me to hate anyone.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 08 juillet 2010 - 08:36 .

[Zjarcal]

Xandurpein wrote...

Anora is, like Loghain and Alistair, a polarizing character. If you go against Alistair about Loghain at the Landsmeet he will not accept it, and if you go against Anora at the Landsmeet she won't accept it. Some people don't like morally ambiguous choices so they prefer to hate or belittle the one who they choose against, because that will remove an uncomfortable sense of guilt. In that respect some of the Anora hate is just a mirror of the Alistair hate.

There are of course other factors involved too. What your image of what a good politician should be and what type of leader Ferelden really needs. I can make very good arguments for both Anora and Alistair as leaders, but I think that if you did a survey, you would find that people who have some form of degree in political science would be more understanding of Anora as a ruler, than those who don't. Alistair on the other hand much more closely matches the traditional good fairy tale king.

I expect that any player who closely identifies themselves with the elves and play and elf character will tend to dislike Anora and prefer Alistair a lot, as he is a little more inclined to improve their position.

I'm sure there is a gender thing too. The fact that a male Couslands can marry Anora is bound to affect some. You see hints of a different Anora than the politician, while at the same time it's sufficiently vague to allow for a lot of speculation/fantasy. Some female players on the other hand loves the scene where Alistair finally, being hardened, becomes the strong sexy man at the Landsmeet they want, and see Anora as a threat to that.

Personally I think Anora is a much better choice as leader, but that is pure opinion as it hinges on what you define as "better". I certainly don't think it makes Anora a better human being than Alistair, and regardless of my opinion of Alistair or Anora as ruler, I don't really see any reason to hate either of them.

Anora has her foibles just as any other character does and, just as with Alistair, you can personally be the target for that foible at an inopportune moment if you make certain choices, but that is not in itself reason for me to hate anyone.

Your posts as usual are brilliant!

[BillWatson08]

thesuperdarkone wrote...

@Sarah: I know that saying you'll kill her father will make her betray you, but it does bother me that she would be willing to kill the only grey wardens in ferelden and willing to plunge ferelden into destruction even if she is supported just to save her father.

She has no reason to believe that killing the Grey Wardens would plung Ferelden into any problem at all. Your Warden has no knowledge of why wardens are needed intil well after the Landsmeet.

[Sarah1281]

I don't think she LETS him remain regent which doesn't really show her as capable. In her defense, though, Cailan was the regent while she was the consort and then when everyone found out the regent was dead Loghain declared himself the new regent and he had the largest army available since Eamon was out of the picture. Maybe she could have done something but I'm not sure what she was supposed to have done. Now, if she were the Queen regent and let him take over then that would be a different story.

[Phedra]

I am little confused when does Anora want to have Alistair killed? I do not remember that ever coming up in my play through.

[Sarah1281]

Phedra wrote...

I am little confused when does Anora want to have Alistair killed? I do not remember that ever coming up in my play through.

If you spare Loghain then Anora gets pissed that he's the only one calling for her father's death so unless they're getting married she says that she can't risk rebellions but if you're all 'oh come on, you owe me' she's like 'this is a horrible idea but fine. I don't even care.' If you don't speak up, she kills him. If you do, he becomes a drunken exile.

[Phedra]

Oh, I have always had Alistair kill Loghain so I never seen that however this play through I plan on sacfircing Loghain for the Trophy.

[Sarah1281]

If you want to avoid a bad ending for Alistair, go the hardened-married-to-Anora route. Unless you think Anora is such a huge **** he's better off a washed-out drunken exile, of course.

[Xandurpein]

Sarah1281 wrote...

If you want to avoid a bad ending for Alistair, go the hardened-married-to-Anora route. Unless you think Anora is such a huge **** he's better off a washed-out drunken exile, of course.

Or has a HNM who wants to marry Anora himself ofc.

[Sarah1281]

Xandurpein wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

If you want to avoid a bad ending for Alistair, go the hardened-married-to-Anora route. Unless you think Anora is such a huge **** he's better off a washed-out drunken exile, of course.

Or has a HNM who wants to marry Anora himself ofc.

Doing that with Loghain not killed at the Landsmeet still leads to a bad outcome for Alistair, though.

[Xandurpein]

Zyanic wrote...

Reasons I don't like Anora, which will probably be dismissed instantly but *shrug*

She lets Loghain remain regent even though she 'believes him to be going mad'
She goes to see Howe with nothing but one whiny elf hand maiden for protection. Surely even the queen walking through the streets of Denerim would need more than that?
She gets 'captured' by Howe ( I may be slightly suspicious of this.)
All while she's meant to be a capable ruler.

She doesn't let Loghain remain regent. He makes himself regent and she has no formal power to oust him. She could have spoken against him, and I can understand that some may call her morally dubious because she doesn't, but she has no means to stop him.
We really don't know under what circumstances Anora ends up in Howe's prison. She really doesn't have any loyal soldiers worth mentioning anyway. Loghain controls Denerim, not Anora. she really don't have many options.
If indeed her capture is part of some gambit to contact the warden it again rather hints at a morally dubious character than a case of bad leadership.

I could argue that the fact that she can play her cards, and the Warden quite well, even if she has very little real power, is in itself proof that she is a quite consumate politician. That doesn't mean you have to like her, but at least dislike her for the right reasons.

Trying to 'prove' that Anora isn't a good politican and capable ruler is a popular pastime, just as trying to 'prove' that Alistair is a whining wimp. Personally I feel that both are dead wrong.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 09 juillet 2010 - 07:30 .

[CalJones]

I think she doesn't speak against Loghain before the Landsmeet because she is also struggling with the fact the he's her father.

There's little doubt that she has placed him on a pedestal, partly because of his reputation as a war hero, and partly because he spent most of his time in Denerim while she was growing up in Gwaren, and seeing him would have been a rare treat. (Absence makes the heart grow fonder, and all that).

As she admits, she trusted him at first. She has no reason not to, given what he has achieved in the past. It is only later that she begins to doubt.

[Xandurpein]

Zyanic wrote...

I don't want to start a massive argument or anything because I don't really care that much about it,  Everyone is entitled to their opinion and that's great. The codex states that Anora was really the one ruling the country for the five years that Cailan was king so why doesn't she have any real power or any loyal soldiers?

Fair enough. You are entitled to your opinion too, but I'm going to assume that you are still curious about it.

It all comes down to delegation of power. Anora is Cailan's consort. A consort has no real power on their own, but Cailan is either not interested in ruling or recognizes that Anora is better at it, so he let's her do most of the ruling for him. If anything Anora acts as Cailan's chancellor. That gives Anora a lot of power and responsibility. She is the one making all the decisions about running Ferelden, but she is still technically dependant on Cailan for allowing her to rule in his stead. 

Remove Cailan and her authority is gone. She still has all her political connections and a lot of people thinks she did a good job running the country for Cailan, which gives some credence to her bid to become ruling Queen in her own name, but unless she is confirmed as monarch by the Landsmeet, she has no formal power after Cailan is dead, because she was still just his consort.

That is also why a HNM doesn't become King, only consort. Anora wants to be the monarch herself this time, not be dependant on a king's whim.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 09 juillet 2010 - 10:19 .

[BHRamsay]

Aurelet wrote...

Well to quote Morrigan

Two things a man will always believe about a woman...
One..that she is weak
Two..that she desires him

Morrigan's take on men is about as simple minded as her take on anything else. 

I get no small amount of joy in the sheer confusion she has when i give her that golden mirror expecting nothing in return least of all her body. It adds a tremendous amount of weight to the "tis a courious thing" speech

[Xandurpein]

BHRamsay wrote...

Aurelet wrote...

Well to quote Morrigan

Two things a man will always believe about a woman...
One..that she is weak
Two..that she desires him

Morrigan's take on men is about as simple minded as her take on anything else. 

I get no small amount of joy in the sheer confusion she has when i give her that golden mirror expecting nothing in return least of all her body. It adds a tremendous amount of weight to the "tis a courious thing" speech

Especially as she spends so much time explaining how wise Flemeth was in curing her of her fascination for such trinkets and that now she is far to wise and clever to bother about such things, and then she goes all gooey inside for getting the mirror.

[BillWatson08]

That's the thing about Morrigan and Shale. They are the easiest to get high ratings with despite their protestations. Wynne on the other is the exact opposite. She seems to be easy, but you only get +4 for completing her question. I'll bet Anora is the same, once you get in her good graces, she's a real tiger.