2338 réponses à ce sujet

[Blackveldt]

KainrycKarr wrote...

It's not a major waste of time or money because they already made that money back(and then some....a lot) with ME2 sales.

Just because one can make a profit does not mean that one cannot be wasteful.

And in terms of time, why build up and develop so many characters and then start anew, only to repeat the process?  Especially when Bioware has made it a point that, as the only game out there that employs imported saves, our decisions and choices have consequences.  The latter actually has the potential to be more of an effort since they need to make us like and bond with these new characters in the last game while still holding onto former crew mates.

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Blackveldt wrote...

The main purpose of ME2 was character development,
which is why it may have seemed a bit lean on the climax/plot side.
Not only recruiting new members, but having the game centered around
each of them, in terms of gaining loyalty, developing
relationships/personalities, etc. To do as the OP has suggested would
have rendered the entirety of ME2 pointless. This is perhaps the
main reason why characters will not be simple cameos, squad mates or
not. To put forth that much effort and story into characters/squad
mates only to not use them in the finale would be not only bad writing
and execution, but a major waste of time and money.

There's a difference between playing a role in the story and being a playable squadmate. OP is simply suggesting that they will no longer be playable squadmates, not taken away from the story.

Which is why I stated, "squad mates or not."

I was referring to the OP's prediction that we would get a bunch of new squad members, which demeans the character development process in ME2.  One to three new characters, perhaps.  But not an entire 'replacement crew' so to speak.

Modifié par Blackveldt, 31 juillet 2010 - 09:56 .

[Inverness Moon]

Shandepared wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

I've heard rumors (and might have mentioned this) that there will be certain specialist positions that you'll have to fill by choosing between the squad mates available (still alive). It sounds like a good way to do what you're suggesting if it is true.

I bet you've heard lots of "rumors".

Only three, actually. The first being what I just mentioned.

The second was that Legion was originally to be the companion Liara went with to retrieve Shepard's body, and that you would actually play as Legion for some event of that in a prequel for ME2. But that was supposedly cut to make the beginning of ME2 less confusing to new players.

The third was that Shepard was originally to be revived by the geth, before they decided on Cerberus.

Both rumors give me the impression that Legion got royally shafted, which is what I feel considering Legion has hidden dialogue for several missions that must be completed before the reaper IFF mission.

[Unit-Alpha]

Sorry, you're wrong.



I think we can safety assume that some of those that survive will return. ME2 was a recruitment game. There was no main mission focus. Therefore, to removed the old characters and start over would be insanely stupid.



Rather, I see the possibility of receiving your old squad back and those that lost people will either have to deal with it or will receive random characters instead (red shirts).



The biggest piece of evidence of the "deal with it" scenario is the fact that you can't survive the end mission without 2 squadmates surviving. What is the number of squadmates in your squad? Two. Tell me that is just a coincidence considering that in the cutscene, only one squadmate pulls you up.

[smudboy]

Unit-Alpha wrote...
I think we can safety assume that some of those that survive will return. ME2 was a recruitment game. There was no main mission focus. Therefore, to removed the old characters and start over would be insanely stupid.

The biggest piece of evidence of the "deal with it" scenario is the fact that you can't survive the end mission without 2 squadmates surviving. What is the number of squadmates in your squad? Two. Tell me that is just a coincidence considering that in the cutscene, only one squadmate pulls you up.

2/12?  Which 2?  Any?  

The best case: Tali and Garrus, a cameo by love interests, and potentially a generic placeholder of characters of no plot relevance.

[Mallissin]

Where's that chick that roleplayed EDI all the time who wrote that guide about beating the game with the smallest number of survivors?

Oh, right...THEY STICKIED HER THREAD EXPLAINING IT!

http://social.biowar...5/index/2933016

[crimzontearz]

ok....a couple of more things here



1: People need to face facts. Bioware is now property of EA. That is most likely the reason why there was day one paid DLC for both DAO and ME2. That is most likely also the reason why ME2 got the "streamline" treatment and why DA is getting it next. EA has a LONG history of literally KILL good developers and good IPs. Could Bioware survive this? oh yes ....but will it? No one knows.



Just saying "but this is Bioware" does not work as an ipse-dixit-like justification because EA could VERY well go to Bioware and say "the next ME needs to be a GOW clone with no RPG elements save for the conversations" and Bioware would have ZERO choice to do anything but obediently bend over. Will this extreme situation come to be? most probably not but that is the degree of power EA has on Bioware now.





2: even assuming Bioware has total freedom even they will be pushed by their own marketing not to find the quads to actually tell people "hey..you let your prople die? you DID NOT try more than one playthrough to save everyone? you WANTED them dead because you just did not want them around? cool......in ME3 you will DEAL WITH THE CONSEQUENCES OF YOUR ACTIONS JUST LIKE WE ALWAYS ADVERTISED FOR". Sorry it's just not going to happen, just like Marketing and Branding are not gonna let the developers reveal things that could possibly ****** people off or be taken the wrong way. An example...the Developers knew WAAAAAAAAAY ahead that the hammehead was not going to be in the final retail game evn thos the Devs let is slip that the vehicle existed as a replacement of the MAKO and that it was gonna be sold separately...Marketing most probably told them to keep the lid tight on it because being honest about this move would have pissed people off. And so on and so forth.



Sadly having seen how things are going lately until Bioware proves me wrong I am going to expect the worst as are many others.

[LeGiT TwinkyKiD]

I think they might combine the characters, just not all of them, maybe They will difference=iate, depending on who live and dies, like if you have Kaidan die, someone will comeback(maybe Samara, idk) to balance a bit, but if you pick Ashley to die, they will bring a Solider back(like Grunt, or Garrus, or Zaeed) They can attempt to balance, but i doubt they wont brink anyone(im already thinking about preordering mass effect 3, no returnings would make me a little mad

[KainrycKarr]

Blackveldt wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

It's not a major waste of time or money because they already made that money back(and then some....a lot) with ME2 sales.

Just because one can make a profit does not mean that one cannot be wasteful.

And in terms of time, why build up and develop so many characters and then start anew, only to repeat the process?  Especially when Bioware has made it a point that, as the only game out there that employs imported saves, our decisions and choices have consequences.  The latter actually has the potential to be more of an effort since they need to make us like and bond with these new characters in the last game while still holding onto former crew mates.

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Blackveldt wrote...

The main purpose of ME2 was character development,
which is why it may have seemed a bit lean on the climax/plot side.
Not only recruiting new members, but having the game centered around
each of them, in terms of gaining loyalty, developing
relationships/personalities, etc. To do as the OP has suggested would
have rendered the entirety of ME2 pointless. This is perhaps the
main reason why characters will not be simple cameos, squad mates or
not. To put forth that much effort and story into characters/squad
mates only to not use them in the finale would be not only bad writing
and execution, but a major waste of time and money.

There's a difference between playing a role in the story and being a playable squadmate. OP is simply suggesting that they will no longer be playable squadmates, not taken away from the story.

Which is why I stated, "squad mates or not."

I was referring to the OP's prediction that we would get a bunch of new squad members, which demeans the character development process in ME2.  One to three new characters, perhaps.  But not an entire 'replacement crew' so to speak.

You keep bringing up consequences. How much did the "consequences" affect ME2?

Yeah. The "consequences" argument holds no water.

[crimzontearz]

I do not think there will be many consequences in ME3 at all either



for every decision we make apparently affecting the future in a huge manner there is another opposite decision down the line that would allow for a similar result obtained if we picked the opposite path in the previous decision

[theelementslayer]

crimzontearz wrote...

1: People need to face facts. Bioware is now property of EA. That is most likely the reason why there was day one paid DLC for both DAO and ME2. That is most likely also the reason why ME2 got the "streamline" treatment and why DA is getting it next. EA has a LONG history of literally KILL good developers and good IPs. Could Bioware survive this? oh yes ....but will it? No one knows.

Whats with the EA hate. Yes they have screwed over some games but I think that they are batting a better then average for making good games successful. Here are a few

-ME series-the changes really I dont think were implememnted by EA, Bioware made the decision and it worked out better. Much better reviews
-DA-The only thing they changed was the conversation system and there really is no information about it yet everyone is saying it will be so different
-Mirrors Edge
-Crysis
-Dead Space
-NFS(some were good others not but overall they were fun if you liked racing games)
-Sports games(They made a legend on these
-MoH(One of a kind shooter, people still play it)


Yes there was DLC first day but actually for ME you didnt have paid DLC the first day, if you bought the game new you were granted access to the Cerberus network which gave you, with the cost of the game, Zaheed, and a few armour/weapons the first day.

EA isnt the devil, they do want to make money but really they arent a bad publishing company.

[Blackveldt]

KainrycKarr wrote...


You keep bringing up consequences. How much did the "consequences" affect ME2?

Yeah. The "consequences" argument holds no water.

You neglected my initial statement, which really addressed your 'wasting money' issue.

And having consequences, whether positive or negative, can be significant enough that the designers need to spend plenty of time crafting situations, characters, dialogue, etc.  Bioware have stated that ME3 will be, overall, easier to develop than ME2 since they will no longer have to worry about continuity (from ME3 to an ME4) as it is a trilogy.

As Bioware's Casey Hudson stated in an interview:

It's beyond three or four dimensions, because you have all the consequences from a certain playthrough and many different things that happen and different things that happen within those. But then all those things different for a different play through and then times your class and times your gender and all these things. We're pulling in probably over a thousand variables from Mass Effect 2 into Mass Effect 3 if you're importing your save game. It's more of an organic approach where we're opportunistic about how the game can change based on those variables. So the writers have to experts in what's happened before and what choices you could have made, and then as they write the story, they find places where it would be really cool to have different things happen based on those variables./

- Source

Ray Muzyka also stated:

...you have to always be aware of the continuity and have plans that are flexible enough to change, but also points of continuation...

Not to mention practical considerations (re-hiring voice actors, etc).

- Source

Whether you personally believe the consequences are significant is irrelevant at this point.  Many may even disagree with you; however, the point is that, regardless of what you think, this process takes a lot of time, effort, and creativity.  A single choice can affect dialogue, rendering, writing, etc.  And those in turn, can affect entirely different aspects of the game.  To design and code such 'branches' of plot devices from one game to another is a complex and resource-draining process.  Which merely goes back to my main point that having a full 'replacement crew,' complete with new graphic rendering(s), personalities, character development, voice actors, writing, dialogue, etc, would render such (previous and upcoming) work almost pointless and wasteful.

Your curtailed statement is not only ambiguous, but fallacious.

Modifié par Blackveldt, 01 août 2010 - 09:24 .

[crimzontearz]

theelementslayer wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

1: People need to face facts. Bioware is now property of EA. That is most likely the reason why there was day one paid DLC for both DAO and ME2. That is most likely also the reason why ME2 got the "streamline" treatment and why DA is getting it next. EA has a LONG history of literally KILL good developers and good IPs. Could Bioware survive this? oh yes ....but will it? No one knows.

Whats with the EA hate. Yes they have screwed over some games but I think that they are batting a better then average for making good games successful. Here are a few

-ME series-the changes really I dont think were implememnted by EA, Bioware made the decision and it worked out better. Much better reviews
-DA-The only thing they changed was the conversation system and there really is no information about it yet everyone is saying it will be so different
-Mirrors Edge
-Crysis
-Dead Space
-NFS(some were good others not but overall they were fun if you liked racing games)
-Sports games(They made a legend on these
-MoH(One of a kind shooter, people still play it)


Yes there was DLC first day but actually for ME you didnt have paid DLC the first day, if you bought the game new you were granted access to the Cerberus network which gave you, with the cost of the game, Zaheed, and a few armour/weapons the first day.

EA isnt the devil, they do want to make money but really they arent a bad publishing company.

I played Mirror's Edge....perhaps one of the few decent titles you mentioned alongside crysis, by the law of great numbers they are bound to get a few of the good ones in but you forget one is a niche game and the other is a shooter, the latter is the bread and butter of the average gamer they do not need to be "mainstreamed for profit"...Same for MoH...and same for NFS, you are not exactrly helping your case. and come on man SPORTS games? Seriously?


Dead Space is a prime excample of what I am talking about....the game is getting streamlined because the tension was too high. in other words, it was such a sublimely crafted horror experience that even hardcore survival horror junkies could only play it for a few hours before having to put it down. In order to increase sales EA is making the devs tone down the "scary stuff" and group it in certain areas so that the game will be more accessible......yay


DA:.....uhm.....dude....DA is becoming more like ME with a single character of a single race, does that tell you anything? "OMG ME was a huge selling serie...ok...Bioware, make DA look and feel more like ME the second time around". DA was a callback to the original DnD RPGs that were made by Bioware and Black Isle ahnd it's not anymore.


ME2's changes were SO awesome that Bioware VERY early on promised ME3 will get more RPG features.......some great changes they were uh? IF ME3 was to start turning up as a full shooter like EA was probably planning they would lose a LOT of money from the huge RPG fanbase the game has....we got lucky with that one.

[Commander Maklai]

I think the most likely scenario is having the generic "start new game" As having some of the old crew, maybe with some dying, OR Like they've said they're gonna do let you import so you can drasticly change the story and in that case there will be ready made new characters to replace them. OR (most likely) have a couple old members who survive go E.g. Thane because he's dying. And samara because she needs to continue her duties as a justicar.

[redplague]

Well who you take with you is your choice so most are going to pick a balanced team so I don't see how it would be much of a problem.

[crimzontearz]

it could be worse..they could just "fudge" the story a little to make it all fit like they did with the DAO expansion -groans-

[Milana_Saros]

Bluko wrote...

Also remember that Ashley, Kaidan, and Liara were romance options in ME1. Yet in ME2 they were more or less put on hold. So it really would not be surprising if Bioware did the same again. Although hopefully you will actually be able to continue romances this time.

Would be a nice way to ****** of thousands of customers IMO.

The way I see it, at least the "oldies" can be squad mates. As in Kaidan/Ashley, Liara, Garrus and Tali...they started this with you, would be pretty damn strange if they decided not to follow through with it. As for ME2 squad mates...the whole idea of breaking Shepard away from her/his old squad fealt bizarre to begin with and then they even made many of the new ones romance options. It's like getting tangled in your own web.

Zaeed and Kasumi are freaking DLC's. Why demand them as squadmates for ME3 is beyond me...why even make non-important squad mate DLCs is beyone me. That time and effort could've been put into Liara/Kaidan/Ashley to sort out a few tangled webs.

Jacob and Miranda are or at least were Cerberus...they going to jump on the train with you and revert back to the Alliance just like that? If you can even go back to the Alliance which I doubt. Thane is dying. Grunt/Jack/Samara/Mordin all joined you for the Collector mission. Can't see why they wouldn't go their own way after it. Oh wait Jack is a romance option...

It's tangled up for sure. Won't matter to me tbh as long as I get Kaidan back where he belongs. Lifting my enemies up in the air so I can blow them up like carnival targets.

[tonnactus]

Milana_Saros wrote...


Would be a nice way to ****** of thousands of customers IMO.

Like they did it in Mass Effect 2. Would be nothing new for them.The customers bought it despise of that.

[Milana_Saros]

tonnactus wrote...

Milana_Saros wrote...


Would be a nice way to ****** of thousands of customers IMO.

Like they did it in Mass Effect 2. Would be nothing new for them.The customers bought it despise of that.

I don't know about the others but I personally would be insanely dissapointed if the "they'll be back with full force"  statement (saw it somewhere but can't remember where) turned out to be complete and utter bull...that' statement is what kept me swallowing my dissapointment with ME2. With ME2, it's the combat that keeps me going. Running around with the Infiltrator is just...squeeee! Still, I find myself clinging on the thought that I'll be reunited with old friends in ME3. The scene where you leave for the Omega relay and stare at your original LI's pic is one of the strongest scenes I've seen in games. It should mean something.

Just saying, not enabling the 3 as squad mates would be one of the most bizarre moves I've seen when it comes to game sequels. Then again, everyone in NWN2 were smashed under a rock *shrug*

[Mister Mida]

If your teammates of ME2 are not available in ME3, they better have a good excuse for it.

It was unbelievable for the ME (1) team not to keep persueing the Reaper threat after Shepard 'died'. 'The galaxy is gonna be destroyed by a fleet of super starships!' ME (1) team: 'Oh well, Shepard is dead, so whatever. We're just gonna do what the hell we want. Kill some low lives on Omega, do some silly research in geth space, etc.' I couldn't believe they all just went their own way like nothing has happened or will happen if they don't do something.

Only Wrex did something that could actually help against the Reapers. Liara was doing something, but the exact use of it is still to be decided. Ashley and Kaidan practically accepted that the Council or the Alliance are not gonna do anything and became their lapdogs. Garrus and Tali just gave up.

Bottom line: if people of your two original teams can't join you, there better be a very good reason for it.

Modifié par Mister Mida, 01 août 2010 - 04:42 .

[KingDan97]

Commander Maklai wrote...

I think the most likely scenario is having the generic "start new game" As having some of the old crew, maybe with some dying, OR Like they've said they're gonna do let you import so you can drasticly change the story and in that case there will be ready made new characters to replace them. OR (most likely) have a couple old members who survive go E.g. Thane because he's dying. And samara because she needs to continue her duties as a justicar.

Samara has no duties though... her "job" if you'd even call it that is correcting injustices, which she can do with Shepard. Her mission or quest or what ever else you would call it was catching Morinth. Done. She's looking for something else to do and I'm pretty sure saving the galaxy from extinction is a better gig then she'd get anywhere else.

[KingDan97]

Milana_Saros wrote...

Bluko wrote...

Also remember that Ashley, Kaidan, and Liara were romance options in ME1. Yet in ME2 they were more or less put on hold. So it really would not be surprising if Bioware did the same again. Although hopefully you will actually be able to continue romances this time.

Would be a nice way to ****** of thousands of customers IMO.

The way I see it, at least the "oldies" can be squad mates. As in Kaidan/Ashley, Liara, Garrus and Tali...they started this with you, would be pretty damn strange if they decided not to follow through with it. As for ME2 squad mates...the whole idea of breaking Shepard away from her/his old squad fealt bizarre to begin with and then they even made many of the new ones romance options. It's like getting tangled in your own web.

Zaeed and Kasumi are freaking DLC's. Why demand them as squadmates for ME3 is beyond me...why even make non-important squad mate DLCs is beyone me. That time and effort could've been put into Liara/Kaidan/Ashley to sort out a few tangled webs.

Jacob and Miranda are or at least were Cerberus...they going to jump on the train with you and revert back to the Alliance just like that? If you can even go back to the Alliance which I doubt. Thane is dying. Grunt/Jack/Samara/Mordin all joined you for the Collector mission. Can't see why they wouldn't go their own way after it. Oh wait Jack is a romance option...

It's tangled up for sure. Won't matter to me tbh as long as I get Kaidan back where he belongs. Lifting my enemies up in the air so I can blow them up like carnival targets.

You tear down all the ME2 squaddies just like that and yet you like Kaiden of all people? That whiny little derp? I killed him on Virmire every time, just so I wouldn't have to listen to him. Basically you just figure that no one will stay with you because you don't like them -.-