2338 réponses à ce sujet

[Jaron Oberyn]

KainrycKarr wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Cris Shepard wrote...

You really have to go out of your
way to make sure every character dies.. Unfortunately the OP is right,
why would they give each of these characters a huge part in the game if
they might be dead for some people.

Exactly.  Something this fellow hasn't quite grasped.

PoliteAssasin wrote...
"Liara will travel with you for a few missions involving the shadow broker, and you'll be able to develop your romance back if it existed, and even develop it anew if it did not. Afterwards, she will return to illium. We don't want the worry of designing a possibly dead or alive Liara into ME3. We have have enough of those kinds of problems right now."

http://social.biowar...472/139#3328238

It seems like someone claimed to be working for Bioware and posted this little comment I quoted above. Look at the last 2 sentences. Now what? That's the 3rd piece of evidence I've supplied so far. What have you guys got?

Oh, thats right - absolutely nothing. 

-Polite

And if Mr. /v/ is true, then BioWare is having problems trying to put ME2 squadmates into ME3.

Who knew?

And...how exactly does this support your claim that ME2 Squadmates->ME3 Squadmates?  Sounds like a strike against it, although nothing we didn't already know.

Actually it sounds more like they're trying to do it, it just isn't easy.

Exactly. Of course it isn't going to be easy.

---------------------------------------------------------

There have to be a crazy number of permutations for how you can end your story in Mass Effect 2[/i]. How much of a nightmare is it for you guys to figure out how to address that for Mass Effect 3[/i]? [/b]

It's ... very hard.

Do you have like a whiteboard somewhere, like a multi-faceted –[/b]

No, it would be impossible, because it's multi-multi-dimensional. You couldn't put it into a 2D flowchart or a matrix –

You need a stereoscopic 3D whiteboard that you can manipulate Minority Report style.[/b]

It's beyond three or four dimensions, because you have all the consequences from a certain playthrough and many different things that happen and different things that happen within those. But then all those things different for a different play through and then times your class and times your gender and all these things. We're pulling in probably over a thousand variables from Mass Effect 2[/i] into Mass Effect 3[/i] if you're importing your save game. It's more of an organic approach where we're opportunistic about how the game can change based on those variables. So the writers have to experts in what's happened before and what choices you could have made, and then as they write the story, they find places where it would be really cool to have different things happen based on those variables.

-----------------------------------------------------
http://www.joystiq.c...-mass-effect-2/


-Polite

Edit: Don't even waste your time with smudboy. No matter what evidence you give him, he's too stubborn to admit he's wrong, and actually has no proof of his own to back up his claims. I've supplied many sources, he has yet to show one.

Modifié par PoliteAssasin, 03 août 2010 - 03:43 .

[smudboy]

KainrycKarr wrote...

So...I forget. Are your arguments in SUPPORT of them coming back, or AGAINST?

Honestly
with all those walls of text you two throw back and forth, the actual
content of what you're talking about gets lost.

Don't worry.  He's just caught up in his own hyperbole.

PoliteAssasin wrote...
Well that seems to be your fault for either having a short attentions span, or for lacking common comprehension skills. It's not that I support or oppose the squad coming back. Its the fact that they are coming back, as your squad. Why? Because Mass Effect 2's focus is all about the squad, according to Bioware.

Guess what, supergenius?  Anyone could've told you ME2 was about your squad.  BioWare telling us this, people playing the game for themselves...so again, what's your point?

Because they made an entire game dedicated to them. Because they're not going to penalize the people who kept their whole squad alive because some lazy player got half of them killed.

Why would they penalize people for anything?  What are you talking about?  Why would a game penalize a player for...anything?

Would your definition of penalization be...not having a ME2 squad->ME3 squad?  Why?

For the last time, you sh+t for brains: it's not about some lazy player.  You have to actually WORK HARD to get your team killed.  And the prerogative of the player is irrelevant: ME2 was designed to do this, to get a lot of your squad killed.  It doesn't matter how easy or hard it is, it's a matter of functionality.

If the function exists, the flag exists, and BioWare has to account for that.

And because the quote above gives more proof that they are having a tough time making possible dead or alive people fit into Mass 3. Something Casey Hudson mentioned when asked about the different permutations of Mass 2's ending. I also quoted and linked that article. 

-Polite

If it's proof it's hard to do, then there's a greater chance they won't be spending all that time and money just to have ME2 squads->ME3 squads.  Quite obviously the opposite.

I also read that article and quoted it for you several times.  Difficultly implies longer time to completion.  And more money and resources.  Hence, a lesser chance of complex things happening.

Congratulations for helping us prove our point more.  It's a shame you're too blinded by your rose tinted glasses to realize the obvious, Mr. Game Development Student.

[KainrycKarr]

Seriously, it sounds like they are trying to implement them as squadmates, finding it's hard to do, which means they will try to minimize the work.



Which means the squadmates will likely be interchangeable. Which is good...kind of. In the sense that they will be there. They just won't be specifically important to any part of the overall story.



So, if my assumption is correct, chances are the squadmates will done module style, but they will likely make all dialogue and interactions irrelevant to the plot.



I am undecided if that's good or not. Either way I still prefer it over a brand new crew.

[smudboy]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Seriously, it sounds like they are trying to implement them as squadmates, finding it's hard to do, which means they will try to minimize the work.

Which means the squadmates will likely be interchangeable. Which is good...kind of. In the sense that they will be there. They just won't be specifically important to any part of the overall story.

So, if my assumption is correct, chances are the squadmates will done module style, but they will likely make all dialogue and interactions irrelevant to the plot.

I am undecided if that's good or not. Either way I still prefer it over a brand new crew.

You mean like...generic placeholders?

[KainrycKarr]

smudboy wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Seriously, it sounds like they are trying to implement them as squadmates, finding it's hard to do, which means they will try to minimize the work.

Which means the squadmates will likely be interchangeable. Which is good...kind of. In the sense that they will be there. They just won't be specifically important to any part of the overall story.

So, if my assumption is correct, chances are the squadmates will done module style, but they will likely make all dialogue and interactions irrelevant to the plot.

I am undecided if that's good or not. Either way I still prefer it over a brand new crew.

You mean like...generic placeholders?

Probably. Let me guess, you or polite already mentioned that?

Seriously. I have ADHD and about 50 video games on my computer. I'm not going to read all that text.  :l

[Jaron Oberyn]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Seriously, it sounds like they are trying to implement them as squadmates, finding it's hard to do, which means they will try to minimize the work.

Which means the squadmates will likely be interchangeable. Which is good...kind of. In the sense that they will be there. They just won't be specifically important to any part of the overall story.

So, if my assumption is correct, chances are the squadmates will done module style, but they will likely make all dialogue and interactions irrelevant to the plot.

I am undecided if that's good or not. Either way I still prefer it over a brand new crew.

Exactly. While they could make for example shepard's Mass 2 LI important to the plot, the others could have sort of a "generic" dialogue/story importance. Or maybe we're underestimating Bioware's capabilities. They've made great achievements in setting the standard for RPG's so far. They could very well pull off something new this time around and have it where the 3rd game will be significantly different based on Mass 1 and 2 decisions all cascading together. But that's probably just wishful thinking. However, with each of Bioware's new games they tend to surprise with their new features. I'll keep an open mind.

-Polite

[Jaron Oberyn]

KainrycKarr wrote...

smudboy wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Seriously, it sounds like they are trying to implement them as squadmates, finding it's hard to do, which means they will try to minimize the work.

Which means the squadmates will likely be interchangeable. Which is good...kind of. In the sense that they will be there. They just won't be specifically important to any part of the overall story.

So, if my assumption is correct, chances are the squadmates will done module style, but they will likely make all dialogue and interactions irrelevant to the plot.

I am undecided if that's good or not. Either way I still prefer it over a brand new crew.

You mean like...generic placeholders?

Probably. Let me guess, you or polite already mentioned that?

Seriously. I have ADHD and about 50 video games on my computer. I'm not going to read all that text.  :l

Haha dude, I was just giving you a hard time about that. I'll try to keep my messages short and to the point. I can get carried away with writing. 

-Polite

[KainrycKarr]

With everything being poured into SWTOR, which is just...grotesque amounts of VA work and whatnot, I have no doubt that Bioware CAN do whatever the hell they feel like doing.



The problem is, and will remain, are they willing to go the distance knowing that some people might not experience all of a given character's content?



Hopefully, they will. This is the last of the trilogy. The last of Shepard's story. I would be quite happy to wait until 2012 if it meant they go for broke and hit a home run.



but will they?

[KainrycKarr]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

smudboy wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Seriously, it sounds like they are trying to implement them as squadmates, finding it's hard to do, which means they will try to minimize the work.

Which means the squadmates will likely be interchangeable. Which is good...kind of. In the sense that they will be there. They just won't be specifically important to any part of the overall story.

So, if my assumption is correct, chances are the squadmates will done module style, but they will likely make all dialogue and interactions irrelevant to the plot.

I am undecided if that's good or not. Either way I still prefer it over a brand new crew.

You mean like...generic placeholders?

Probably. Let me guess, you or polite already mentioned that?

Seriously. I have ADHD and about 50 video games on my computer. I'm not going to read all that text.  :l

Haha dude, I was just giving you a hard time about that. I'll try to keep my messages short and to the point. I can get carried away with writing. 

-Polite

Truthfully, I think you guys just need to take a break and call a truce. you both have valid arguments.

[smudboy]

KainrycKarr wrote...

smudboy wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Seriously, it sounds like they are trying to implement them as squadmates, finding it's hard to do, which means they will try to minimize the work.

Which means the squadmates will likely be interchangeable. Which is good...kind of. In the sense that they will be there. They just won't be specifically important to any part of the overall story.

So, if my assumption is correct, chances are the squadmates will done module style, but they will likely make all dialogue and interactions irrelevant to the plot.

I am undecided if that's good or not. Either way I still prefer it over a brand new crew.

You mean like...generic placeholders?

Probably. Let me guess, you or polite already mentioned that?

Seriously. I have ADHD and about 50 video games on my computer. I'm not going to read all that text.  :l

Like two days ago.  As far back as page 14.

[Jaron Oberyn]

KainrycKarr wrote...

With everything being poured into SWTOR, which is just...grotesque amounts of VA work and whatnot, I have no doubt that Bioware CAN do whatever the hell they feel like doing.

The problem is, and will remain, are they willing to go the distance knowing that some people might not experience all of a given character's content?

Hopefully, they will. This is the last of the trilogy. The last of Shepard's story. I would be quite happy to wait until 2012 if it meant they go for broke and hit a home run.

but will they?

Well think of it this way. TOR has a bunch of different classes, each with unique stories right? The same is with Mass Effect. It adds to the replay value. The loading screens clearly state that you can start another playthrough with a different class/gender to find out what you missed. You could argue that not everyone is going to play the soldiers class, or the smugglers class. But someone will. Same with Mass Effect. Someone WILL have a playthrough with all of the squad mates alive.

Someone will have it with some of them alive. It's the same thing. Like I said, they won't penalize players just because some people won't see the content on their playthrough. That's what makes ME unique to each individual player. 

As for Smudboy having a valid argument - your being too kind. He's just going on what he feels like saying, or what he thinks could happen. He hasn't given any sources to back up his claims. I've given many. 

-Polite

[smudboy]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

With everything being poured into SWTOR, which is just...grotesque amounts of VA work and whatnot, I have no doubt that Bioware CAN do whatever the hell they feel like doing.

The problem is, and will remain, are they willing to go the distance knowing that some people might not experience all of a given character's content?

Hopefully, they will. This is the last of the trilogy. The last of Shepard's story. I would be quite happy to wait until 2012 if it meant they go for broke and hit a home run.

but will they?

Well think of it this way. TOR has a bunch of different classes, each with unique stories right? The same is with Mass Effect. It adds to the replay value. The loading screens clearly state that you can start another playthrough with a different class/gender to find out what you missed. You could argue that not everyone is going to play the soldiers class, or the smugglers class. But someone will. Same with Mass Effect. Someone WILL have a playthrough with all of the squad mates alive.

Someone will have it with some of them alive. It's the same thing. Like I said, they won't penalize players just because some people won't see the content on their playthrough. That's what makes ME unique to each individual player. 

As for Smudboy having a valid argument - your being too kind. He's just going on what he feels like saying, or what he thinks could happen. He hasn't given any sources to back up his claims. I've given many. 

-Polite

I've given the same sources as you have, just come to different conclusions.

You still haven't addressed the placeholders issue, and a whole bunch of others I've replied to you with, pages ago.

"But oh, smudboy is being childish, and disregarding every one of my points."  Yet I've consistently replied to everything you're ever written here.  Yet you still do not wish to engage me.

[KainrycKarr]

Give it a rest already. Seriously. Do you really think EITHER of you are going to give any ground?



You both have valid arguments. The ball is in Bioware's court.

[Lilicat]

So...what's the theory about VS?

[smudboy]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Give it a rest already. Seriously. Do you really think EITHER of you are going to give any ground?

You both have valid arguments. The ball is in Bioware's court.

Of course I would. As soon as he makes a valid argument and actually replies to my points.

I'm rather indifferent to saving/not saving squadmates, nor care whether 4.8 members of the squad from ME2 can make it.  Doesn't really bother me.  I'm just following the functionality of the software, and my understanding of the narrative.

If BioWare can support all those resources to make 10 non-cameos and 2 fully relevant squadmates, hey, more power to them.  I simply know those squadmates cannot be plot integral.

If they can all exist as DLC, well that'll suffice as well, wouldn't it?

The only guaranteed characters for plot integrity are Liara, and the Virmire survivor.  Unfortunately, ME2 only has one plot integral character, so that's not much of an argument.  Considering ME3 will focus on plot, I hope that's not the case.  Which implies Liara, the Virmire survivor, or a brand new character(s).

[Soverign 666]

It seems the refeere needs to step in again. Alright go back to your respective corners smudboy and polite and try not to kill each other in the course of this arguement k?

[Uthorous]

Ok I have this prediction Garrus,Tali,Liara,Legion,Samara,Grunt,Kasumi,Miranda,Jacob,Mordin,Thane and Jack for squad members in ME3. Alternatives might be Kal'reger,Aria,Lia'vial,the green asari(her name escapes me atm),those are the the ones I could see logically.

[KainrycKarr]

Uthorous wrote...
Lia'vial.

.....Why? lol.

[JBean]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Truthfully, I think you guys just need to take a break and call a truce. you both have valid arguments.

I agree on the truce part, just b/c it's going nowhere, but honestly, and no offense to this guy, but smudboy's arguments are not valid, especially considering every type of validity.  he does not debate - he argues.  In order to have good debates against the opposite position, you have to understand the opposite position and its arguments.  he does not even try since he so convinced of his 'rightness.'  thats like arguing with a religious zealot.  you can't really win.  i just spent the last 20 minutes sifting through the last pages of the thread (not going to read it all) and I noticed that, no matter what point is brought up against spudboy, he doesn't actually attend to it, most of the time ignoring it completely or misreading it.  just repeats his own points (which is not the equivalent of a counter argument) whether they are relevant or not, and as polite has said, makes a lot of assumptions and then treating those assumptions as if they're official or something.  sorry to be harsh, but it's hard for me to take someone who argues emotionally and is heavily biased, seriously.  not saying polite is completely innocent either here, but spudboy just happened to be more in the spot light with different arguments and people.  hard not to take notice really.

[SmokePants]

"It's very hard." <--- Casey was talking about Mass Effect 2! It was "Very hard" just to get what we got -- cameos, handling characters that may or may not be dead, accounting for every decision. What, you think that was easy? You would have to be the world's biggest idiot to take ME2 for granted and the amount of bending over backwards they had to do to be able to support the ME1 import. And now you're asking them to exponentially and by orders of magnitude increase the complexity like it's what you expect of them.

So, if ME2 was "very hard", where does that leave ME3 as you people envision it? Nigh impossible? Masochistically unfeasible? Prohibitively expensive? Take your damn pick.

[KainrycKarr]

Er, no offense, but I saw nothing that meant they were talking about Mass Effect 2. What he said sounded current. The game came out in January, so why would he, in march, be still working on the cameos etc, two months after the game came out?



Remember, they jumped right into working on ME3.

[KainrycKarr]

And to add, it's actually easy to track who's dead, etc.

They record the VA work, build the cinematics, then attach them to flags in the savegame file.

If Savegame A is flagged for Cameo B, Cameo B plays, if it is not flagged, it doesn't trigger.

Not to mention ME2 was a massive overhaul from ME1, and they already stated they will using the same engine and base for ME3, which cuts the workload in half.

Modifié par KainrycKarr, 03 août 2010 - 06:32 .

[CROAT_56]

KainrycKarr wrote...

And to add, it's actually easy to track who's dead, etc.

They record the VA work, build the cinematics, then attach them to flags in the savegame file.

If Savegame A is flagged for Cameo B, Cameo B plays, if it is not flagged, it doesn't trigger.

Not to mention ME2 was a massive overhaul from ME1, and they already stated they will using the same engine and base for ME3, which cuts the workload in half.

agreed i've said before its much cheaper to work on getting the ME1-2 SMs as ME3 SMs.  Due to the cost associated with new VAs and Cameo VAs.

And on the coding note Polite is very much correct (have a buddy that is studing to be a developer) it is not easy to create new charecters when you have 12 perfectly good ones in front of you.

I am to lazy to do the math but a bulk of the 1000+ variables is who lived and who died.

And Smud when you say a game will not punish its players, we have never had a game where it actually matter (at least not to my knowledge) so it is imposible to say that this game will not disadvantage those who made bad choices in ME2.

Damn not on for a day and this thread jumps 5 pages

Modifié par CROAT_56, 03 août 2010 - 07:05 .

[KingDan97]

smudboy wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Give it a rest already. Seriously. Do you really think EITHER of you are going to give any ground?

You both have valid arguments. The ball is in Bioware's court.

Of course I would. As soon as he makes a valid argument and actually replies to my points.

I'm rather indifferent to saving/not saving squadmates, nor care whether 4.8 members of the squad from ME2 can make it.  Doesn't really bother me.  I'm just following the functionality of the software, and my understanding of the narrative.

If BioWare can support all those resources to make 10 non-cameos and 2 fully relevant squadmates, hey, more power to them.  I simply know those squadmates cannot be plot integral.

If they can all exist as DLC, well that'll suffice as well, wouldn't it?

The only guaranteed characters for plot integrity are Liara, and the Virmire survivor.  Unfortunately, ME2 only has one plot integral character, so that's not much of an argument.  Considering ME3 will focus on plot, I hope that's not the case.  Which implies Liara, the Virmire survivor, or a brand new character(s).

You know smud, I would LOVE to see the master's in classic English Literature you apparently have. You seem to think yourself so fit to tear down on every writer who is perceived to be a prime example of good writing by society as a whole. If you don't accept society, leave it. I guarantee your absence won't be mourned by anyone, except perhaps Armond White, who has found someone as stubborn and thick skulled as him.

In order to be absorbed within a story you must accept a level of suspended disbelief, something you clearly don't grasp. I hate this argument because I generally consider it to be a trivial defense but if you honestly believe Mass Effect 2's story was such goddamned rubbish, let's see how well you can write, because honestly you don't seem to get that video game storytelling is much different then that of movies, television or literature. I want to see you write maybe a page, wherein you show just how well you can write, and then let's see how many little flaws the Bioware community can find within that page in an hour, let alone a day.

[KainrycKarr]

Just to confirm, the thread from the supposed "writer" at bioware is definately talking about ME3, not ME2. Although tbh, I find the source dubious at best. If it's actually a writer and the stuff is true...cool.



If not, oh well.