2338 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

PoliteAssasin wrote...
Casey Hudson:

''we wanted to make sure the love interest can remain an important and integral part of the story, we want that to continue into the third game. We have some really important things we want to resolve there.

1. Casey speaks about Liara, Ashley & Kaidan.

2. He points out that whoever is on the squad in ME2 can die for real and will naturally not be an important and integral part of the story in the third game. Hence, the necessity to "make sure", that is make them not recruitable in ME2.

3. He does not state that Liara and/or Ashley/Kaidan will be squadmates in ME3.

So yeah...

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 04 août 2010 - 05:52 .

[Wittand25]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

@PoliteAssassin:

I guessed that what Casey Hudson said only applies to the ME1 LI's. He wants the whole LI-thing to stay in ME3 and make it something important, but he never said that any ME1 or ME2 LI will be carried over to ME3 for that particular important role. Maybe you'll get an entirely new LI in ME3? But if they indeed give your LI an important role in ME3 then I guess it will only be so for the ME1 LI's, not the ME2 LI's, because they can possibly die.

So your saying only the Mass 1 LI's will be given this role, but because the Mass 2 LI's could possibly die, they won't? I'm going to bring this up again, even though people have a hard time believing it, but the guy claiming to be a Bioware writer said that they're working on giving the the LI's from both games full fledged roles.

Now if you don't believe the guy, think about this - Ashley/Kaidan could both die on Mass Effect 2. They could both possibly die. But if they didn't, whichever one, and they're your LI then they will get the major role. It's the same with Mass 2 LI's. They could die, but if they didn't, they get the role.

-Polite

The guy claiming to be a Bioware writer also said that all DLC will be free, so I suggest to take anything he said with a ton o salt. Ash/Kaidan are different from the ME2 LIs in the way that one of them is alive (that is not true for the ME2 LIs) and can play a role because of their status as Alliance soldier ( with extra dialog if they are an LI). Again this is not true for the ME2 LIs who are to diverse to all be able to cover the same place in a plot.

[Myrmedus]

Luc0s wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

I have to agree with Epoch and the OP.
I bet my 2 cents that ME3 squad will be entirely new with only Ashly/Kaiden and Liara joining again. Maybe Wrex can come back if you saved him in ME1 or else the Urthnot leader who takes Wrex's place if you didn't save him in ME1.

But your ME2 squadies? Nope, they won't be in your crew in ME3. They'll take important NPC roles (like Wrex in ME2) at best.

They don't have to retcon anything, that doesn't make any sense. They set the canon, just like they did with an ME2 game using the default character. If they say "Garrus, Tali, Miranda and Grunt survived the suicide mission" for your default ME3 game then Garrus, Tali, Miranda and Grunt survived.

You don't retcon your own literature xD. You seem to be operating under the assumption that their canonical ending is for everyone to die O.o

You assume that people only either play with an entirely survived crew or a totally new-game. You don't keep in mind that people might import a ME2 game with only a few survivors. For example, I have 1 save-game where Mordin, Jack and Tali died. But I also have a save-file where everyone but 2 (Garrus and Tali) died. I also have a save-file where only Mordin died.

How is BioWare going to account for all these different possibilities? They can't just say "okay Garrus will join your squad again" because Garrus might be DEATH in my save-file! Just like ANY OTHER ME2 character (except for Joker)!

They'll do the same thing they did with ME2 - they'll make characters available based on whose alive in your saved game. Just as with ME2 if you saved Wrex he now leads Urdnot and if you didn't save him he doesn't.

What you're talking about isn't retcon. Retcon is a retrospective change of canon to suit a new plot device. Canon hasn't been setup yet and will only be established once ME3 has been made and they've set a "default" story.

Let's say that Garrus, Tali, Miranda and Legion return. I'd argue that even if Legion dies in ME2 he'll return in ME3 on a new platform, so that takes care of Legion. For Garrus, Tali and Miranda it's simple - if they died in your save game you don't get them in ME3, and if you did save them you do. If Garrus died but Tali and Miranda survived then you get those two, and so on.

Yeah, it means people who lost their team-mates in ME2 will have less characters to choose from but that's synonymous with simply 'missing' characters like you can in either ME1 or 2. I'm sure between returning ME1, ME2 and new characters there will be enough to choose from to keep people happy even if they lost all of the potential returning characters from ME2.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 04 août 2010 - 05:53 .

[SmokePants]

I'll help you out:

''we (BioWare) wanted to make sure the (concept of) love interest can remain an (quote) important and integral part of the story (unquote) (how can that "remain" the case when it never was the case? I smell marketing speak.), we want that to continue into the third game (so, it's going to be the same in the third game as it's been all along -- what a radical idea!). We have some really important things we want to resolve there. (catfiiiiiiiiight!)"

Modifié par SmokePants, 04 août 2010 - 06:00 .

[smudboy]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...
Casey Hudson:

''we wanted to make sure the love interest can remain an important and integral part of the story, we want that to continue into the third game. We have some really important things we want to resolve there.

1. Casey speaks about Liara, Ashley & Kaidan.

2. He points out that whoever is on the squad in ME2 can die for real and will naturally not be an important and integral part of the story in the third game. Hence, the necessity to "make sure", that is make them not recruitable in ME2.

3. He does not state that Liara and/or Ashley/Kaidan will be squadmates in ME3.

So yeah...

Although I agree with your assessment, it's possible that a living LI can be from ME2, and thus in ME3, there being a LI placeholder.  The problem then becomes: what if there's no LI at all?  I would have to argue Liara, Ash/Kaidan then, minus all the gooey-kissie talk.

[KainrycKarr]

epoch_ wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

epoch_ wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Bluko wrote...

We Tigers wrote...

Just went through the thread, and really, this has been debated since the game's release. In fact, this entire conversation has basically happened 40 times between ME and ME2, even, with all the same points being made on both sides. Also, piles of outrage on the part of the community upon learning that most of the ME1 team wouldn't be available, which later smoothed over into contented acceptance.

I will be stunned if any of the team from ME2 is playable. I'd love it, but I don't think they have the bandwidth to figure it out. It's not Bioware's MO to spend significant amounts of dev time on major items that might be missing from the games of numerous players. Any character who survives will have a brief NPC appearance, and any character who doesn't will be referenced in a line of dialogue at some point.

Exactly my sentiments.

Actually it sounds like their only going to bother with the LI's. Everyone else gets the cameo treatment. Of course this source could be total bullpoo, but it makes sense. We'll know if it's credible when the Lair DLC comes out.

That's purely wishful thinking. No one will be returning. And I'll continue to stand by that until I'm given a reason to think otherwise. I must admit, when its finally revealed we'll be getting a new squad, I'm going to grab a big bowl of popcorn and camp out in the tali thread.

Wishful thinking? Looking back into the thread and you'll find i don't think they'll come back either. that "wishful thinking" is simply gather from interviews, and highly questionable source who is a supposed bioware writer, along with what already happened with me2.

Get the stick out of your arse and either find something useful to say one way or the other, or gtfo. Noone cares about your silly pessimism. It is what it is, and it won't matter until ME3 comes out, one way or the other.

If you hate the game so much, leave. It's that simple.

Stick still right up there, huh?

[KainrycKarr]

smudboy wrote...

epoch_ wrote...

Oh man, I can't stop laughing.  WTF!?

Don't you love that argument?  "You hate the game.  Go away."  It's like their Pro-ME2 brain just shifted into low gear and they had to step on the gas to compensate.

Read what they write. There is nothing supportive or productive about it whatsoever.

If you don't like something, and wanna discuss it, go ahead. But you're an idiot to spend your time on a video game forum going "omfg lolz you guys are gonna be soooz disappointed".

Fine, you like ME1, don't like ME2 as much. That's cool. I like both. But if you're gonna be here, you may as well put in some, you know, actual input rather than stomping your feet like a child because because ME2 took a wrong turn here and there.

Modifié par KainrycKarr, 04 août 2010 - 06:36 .

[smudboy]

KainrycKarr wrote...

smudboy wrote...

epoch_ wrote...

Oh man, I can't stop laughing.  WTF!?

Don't you love that argument?  "You hate the game.  Go away."  It's like their Pro-ME2 brain just shifted into low gear and they had to step on the gas to compensate.

Read what they write. There is nothing supportive or productive about it whatsoever.

If you don't like something, and wanna discuss it, go ahead. But you're an idiot to spend your time on a video game forum going "omfg lolz you guys are gonna be soooz disappointed".

In comparison to...other people on here...I don't recall laughing at you guys, or preparing for some kind of "told you so" event.  Got better things to do in the future.  (Or rather no one's given me reason to.)

But for you, or anyone to think that I, or anyone on here, hates the game?  Well you're an idiot for even thinking that.

[KainrycKarr]

smudboy wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

smudboy wrote...

epoch_ wrote...

Oh man, I can't stop laughing.  WTF!?

Don't you love that argument?  "You hate the game.  Go away."  It's like their Pro-ME2 brain just shifted into low gear and they had to step on the gas to compensate.

Read what they write. There is nothing supportive or productive about it whatsoever.

If you don't like something, and wanna discuss it, go ahead. But you're an idiot to spend your time on a video game forum going "omfg lolz you guys are gonna be soooz disappointed".

In comparison to...other people on here...I don't recall laughing at you guys, or preparing for some kind of "told you so" event.  Got better things to do in the future.  (Or rather no one's given me reason to.)

But for you, or anyone to think that I, or anyone on here, hates the game?  Well you're an idiot for even thinking that.

The "hate the game" thing refers mostly to Epoch. you, honestly, seem to just be arguing out of either boredom, or for poops n giggles. Which is fine. Either reason is valid.

But Epoch isn't even providing an argument. Just broad generalizations of overall contempt for anything me2.

[thetruefreemo]

I think they can rejoin you but if they die they'll make a replacement like what they did with the hole "Wrex's brother" thing.

[smudboy]

KainrycKarr wrote...
The "hate the game" thing refers mostly to Epoch. you, honestly, seem to just be arguing out of either boredom, or for poops n giggles. Which is fine. Either reason is valid.

But Epoch isn't even providing an argument. Just broad generalizations of overall contempt for anything me2.

I think it's because, and this is just me, he knows that everyone can die.

Look at this, ME1 squadmates that can die:
Ash/Kaidan are their own placeholder.
Wrex: Wreave placeholder.
That left freedom for designers and writers to do whatever they wanted with the other squadmates.

ME2:
Everyone.  Plus, not even be recruited.  Plus, not even having an import.

It's a simple reaction to obvious evidence.  And, until more data becomes available, it's speculative to gauge how BioWare will deal with that functionality, just because people like character X.

[KingDan97]

I hold my belief that you'll keep anyone who survived ME1(minus Wrex) then the ME2 squaddies, with the potential for some leaving due to other optional obligations(Tali as possible admiral, maybe if you got more then 8 out). Then they'd make 4-6 mandatory characters for the LCD's that everyone needs and are story integral. There would probably be 4 characters from ME2 alive by default on new characters, leaving them with 10 while the LCD's get 8. I guess the bare minimum would be 6, if you were renegade and had Samara live as well as Thane, if his symptoms lead to immediate death as most people seem to think(I don't for the record).



I'd guess the bridge DLC would cover about 8 months, enough for Retribution to happen. I don't think DLC would be minimized in effect as it was with ME2 because the bridge DLC bumps up the importance of the choices within it by a lot.

[KainrycKarr]

smudboy wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...
The "hate the game" thing refers mostly to Epoch. you, honestly, seem to just be arguing out of either boredom, or for poops n giggles. Which is fine. Either reason is valid.

But Epoch isn't even providing an argument. Just broad generalizations of overall contempt for anything me2.

I think it's because, and this is just me, he knows that everyone can die.

Look at this, ME1 squadmates that can die:
Ash/Kaidan are their own placeholder.
Wrex: Wreave placeholder.
That left freedom for designers and writers to do whatever they wanted with the other squadmates.

ME2:
Everyone.  Plus, not even be recruited.  Plus, not even having an import.

It's a simple reaction to obvious evidence.  And, until more data becomes available, it's speculative to gauge how BioWare will deal with that functionality, just because people like character X.

It's not about that. I'm fully aware it isn't likely anyone is comin' back. It's purely about the fact that epoch's posts are completely unproductive in any way shape or form, even in the form of a normal fun internet argument.

[Jaron Oberyn]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...
Casey Hudson:

''we wanted to make sure the love interest can remain an important and integral part of the story, we want that to continue into the third game. We have some really important things we want to resolve there.

1. Casey speaks about Liara, Ashley & Kaidan.

2. He points out that whoever is on the squad in ME2 can die for real and will naturally not be an important and integral part of the story in the third game. Hence, the necessity to "make sure", that is make them not recruitable in ME2.

3. He does not state that Liara and/or Ashley/Kaidan will be squadmates in ME3.

So yeah...

Show me where he says #2 in your list. Otherwise, you have no argument. he said 'love interests" not "Mass 1 love interests". Why? Because they have new love interests in the second game.

Another reason that disproves your assessment - Ashley/Kaidan could possibly die. Miranda, Jacob, Garrus, Tali, and Jack could possibly die. The only one who can't die is Liara. So you can't say that the Mass 2 LI's won't get the same treatment in the third game as the Mass 1 because all of them except Liara can die.

-Polite

[thq95]

It will be intresting to see if you can start a romance with Liara in the new dlc... like the mystery "bioware writer" guy in the article says...

[KainrycKarr]

thq95 wrote...

It will be intresting to see if you can start a romance with Liara in the new dlc... like the mystery "bioware writer" guy in the article says...

That's what I'm waiting for too. If it's as he says with the Liara DLC, I might be a little more willing to believe what he says in that thread.

[Zulu_DFA]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...
Casey Hudson:

''we wanted to make sure the love interest can remain an important and integral part of the story, we want that to continue into the third game. We have some really important things we want to resolve there.

1. Casey speaks about Liara, Ashley & Kaidan.

2. He points out that whoever is on the squad in ME2 can die for real and will naturally not be an important and integral part of the story in the third game. Hence, the necessity to "make sure", that is make them not recruitable in ME2.

3. He does not state that Liara and/or Ashley/Kaidan will be squadmates in ME3.

So yeah...

Show me where he says #2 in your list. Otherwise, you have no argument. he said 'love interests" not "Mass 1 love interests". Why? Because they have new love interests in the second game.

Another reason that disproves your assessment - Ashley/Kaidan could possibly die. Miranda, Jacob, Garrus, Tali, and Jack could possibly die. The only one who can't die is Liara. So you can't say that the Mass 2 LI's won't get the same treatment in the third game as the Mass 1 because all of them except Liara can die.

-Polite

#2. It's called implication. You've been already told by other people that you rip the quotes out of context, and you repeat it here. Casey said this even before ME2 release! In fact, the link you provide in your post says so.

''we wanted to make sure the love interest can remain an important and integral part of the story, we want that to continue into the third game. We have some really important things we want to resolve there. [And whoever is on your squad in ME2, can die in the end, so if we put Liara and Ashley/Kaidan there, we wouldn't be able to write them into ME3]."

Here is Casey's logical construction:

[Implied: Potentially dead companion can't remain integral part of the next game.]
All ME2 companions can die (he said it somewhere next to the quoted sentence, see context).
[Implied: No ME2 companion will be integral part in the next game]

Liara and Ashley/Kaidan have to be integral in the third game
[Implied: No ME2 companion will be integral part in the third game]
[That's why] Liara and Ashley/Kaidan are not your ME2 companions.


I would argue that this very sentence by Casey Hudson also implies that ME2 love interests are secondary to ME1 love interests, but never mind.

Liara can not die and Ashley/Kaidan can not die. That's why this character is called now Ashley/Kaidan. Aka Virmire Survivor (or simply VS). Either Ashley or Kaiden survives ME1 and whoever survives fills in the same role. They are mutually substitutional. Like Smudboy puts it: they are one function. Besides, Virmire in ME1 happens before the romantic subplot can be accomplished, so you can't legitimately say that your LI can die on Virmire. Contrarywise, all ME2 LIs can die after the romantic subplot is accomplished. Without any substitution.

And anyway, what's with this SmokePants' question: how do you think even ME1 LIs can remain important part, when they never were important in the first place, at least in terms of love? The Loner Shepard is equally successful as the Faithful Shepard, and the Cheater Shepard. So yeah.

And what's with my #3 point? I do honestly think that it's practically guaranteed that Liara and Ashley/Kaidan will be squadmates in ME3. But it's a stretch, we don't have any solid ground for this conclusion. Of ME2 squadmates there is one that technically can't die, and it is Legion. So BioWare may (or may not) write him to be something plot relevant in ME3. All others - just forget it. BioWare could make them somewhat important and cool if they made them Wrex-like short cameos (with stand-in characters in case they died), but seeing all you squaddie-obsessed kids, I think they'll just make some extra money on you. And they'll do it the lazy way. I mean, even if they make them squaddies via DLC or something, they will be crap. Calibrations and engine cleaning! EA approves. Put me on your list. But let's make it fair: if you are proven wrong by ME3, you send everyone "Grats, I was an idiot!" message, will you?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 05 août 2010 - 07:17 .

[Tinywolf]

I have been thinking about how ME2 squad mates may be involved in the plot. If we consider that the suicide mission and that each squad mate has a role (sort of), in that if a certain squad mate does a task a better result is seen (i.e someone doesn’t die, generally seen as a better result) If a similar idea is used in ME3, a squad mate if present (and I’m guessing is loyal is evenbetter) would result in a better result in a action. 

Of course could be argued that a squad mate could still do this if a non-squad member. Also the
action would still need to happen, but would be far less effective.

Modifié par Tinywolf, 05 août 2010 - 10:36 .

[ilikeicehockey]

It doesn't matter if they die, if Bioware feels taht there is enough support for the character they will include them. Think about ME2 recruitable characters. If you don't want to you don't have to activated grunt. You can leave him in the cryo-pod for the entire game if you wish and that option is presented to you. With regards to Legion, I believe you can leave him shut down for the entire game as well. That's 2 characters where you don't have to activate with full loyalty missions/dialogue and still beat the game without them. Therefore my thinking is that they will have a few characters from ME2 as a squad member in ME3 even if you don't 'activate' them. Also if Miranda is still alive, in which she probably is as I've heard its hard to kill her, she quits working for cerberus and joins you so that should mean she's a squaddie.

Modifié par ilikeicehockey, 05 août 2010 - 02:58 .

[pvt_java]

smudboy wrote...

pvt_java wrote...
Yes, Bioware will take these into account, but there's no way that they would take the LCD as the default ME2 experience. That's just ridiculous from both a developer standpoint, a writing standpoint, and even a business standpoint. Even in ME2, it assumes that you recruited Garrus, and romanced the Virmire Survivor depending on your character's sex. They also assumed that the council was lost and Udina was elevated to the Head of the Council. No one, not even the person who suggested Planet Scanning would even entertain the idea that the average player lost their entire squad and never romanced anyone throughout the entire game.  

But they did make LCD the default ME2 experience.  How it is ridiculous?  I don't see it ridiculous on all accounts you mentioned.

A new game gives you a Ruthless background: a killer of Rachni and Wrex.  You save the opposite Virmire survivor sex, but don't garner their love interest.  Whether one got Garrus or not is completely irrelevant to everything.  I'm not sure how that applies to other variables like Helena Blake and Fist, but that's cosmetic.

If Bioware will (and it has to) take the LCD into account, then you must assume the game can function just fine with the least content possible.

Excuse me? I'm pretty sure that Ash is the default Romance option in ME2. Please, if can tell me otherwise.

Also Zulu, Casey said that they were making sure that the LI subplot continued into the third game. If that isn't confirmation, considering that they have already given the option for you to stay loyal, which honestly would not be there if they were planning on throwing the LI plots out the window, I don't know what is.

[smudboy]

pvt_java wrote...
Excuse me? I'm pretty sure that Ash is the default Romance option in ME2. Please, if can tell me otherwise.

Also Zulu, Casey said that they were making sure that the LI subplot continued into the third game. If that isn't confirmation, considering that they have already given the option for you to stay loyal, which honestly would not be there if they were planning on throwing the LI plots out the window, I don't know what is.

Play a new game in ME2.  See whether Ash hugs you or not.

[pvt_java]

smudboy wrote...

pvt_java wrote...
Excuse me? I'm pretty sure that Ash is the default Romance option in ME2. Please, if can tell me otherwise.

Also Zulu, Casey said that they were making sure that the LI subplot continued into the third game. If that isn't confirmation, considering that they have already given the option for you to stay loyal, which honestly would not be there if they were planning on throwing the LI plots out the window, I don't know what is.

Play a new game in ME2.  See whether Ash hugs you or not.

Well either way, we're talking about defaults here. And considering Bioware is well able to make a few ME2 characters turn back up as ME3 squaddies, I'm sure those who got No One Left Behind will be rewarded in some way. Money is hardly the issue here, they got Martin F--ing Sheen to do TIM, who has loads of dialogue. Some may come backs as squaddies, and cameos are almost confirmed. Anyway I see no point to continue the arguement here, this thread is going to be active until 2012 anyway. 

[Jaron Oberyn]

Luc0s wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Another reason that disproves your assessment - Ashley/Kaidan could possibly die. Miranda, Jacob, Garrus, Tali, and Jack could possibly die. The only one who can't die is Liara. So you can't say that the Mass 2 LI's won't get the same treatment in the third game as the Mass 1 because all of them except Liara can die.

-Polite

You make the big mistake here by thinking your LI in ME1 can die. This is not the case. In ME1 the LI dies BEFORE he/she is actually your LI. If you choose to romance Ashley but you let her actually die in Vermire than she dies BEFORE she actually became your real LI and thus it would be the same as having no LI at all. In fact, it's entirely possible to still romance Liara after Ash's dead on Vermire even if before you where hitting on Ash.

So ME1 only gives you two options really. Romance with either Liara or Ash/Kaiden, or no romance at all.
Liara and Ash/Kaiden both survive ME2 because of their absence in your squad and thus their return in ME3 is almost garanteed. But not for the ME2 LI who can all possibly die.

Edit: I just see now that the post above me says exactly the same thing.

Sorry kid, but that's not the case. It all depends on how far along in the romance you are when you hit Virmire. When I killed Alenko, Ashley said "He died because of us commander" That pretty much spells out LI to me. So yeah, if I chose to kill Ashley instead of Alenko, my Mass 1 LI would have died. I never said it was impossible to romance Liara, but that Liara is the only one who cannot possibly die. Ashley/Alenko could possibly die on Virmire. It's going to be one of them. The same way that, for example, Miranda could die in Mass 2. But if you keep her alive, then the story will continue with her as your LI in Mass 3, just like it would continue if you had a surviving Mass 1 LI. 

And concluding that Casey Hudson is only referring to Mass 1 LI's when he says they'll be integral to the story is, for lack of a better word, idiotic. They're not going to penalize the player who had never played Mass 1 or didn't find the Mass 1 romances interesting by only giving the 1st games romances a vital part of Mass 3's story. It goes for both games. I'm not going to keep repeating this here because honestly, I don't care if you believe it or not. I know the truth, and that's all that matters in the end. But your pessimism about what they CAN and WILL do is quite amusing to me, so I entertain it. 

Think of it this way, it's the last game of the trilogy. Theres nothing after Mass Effect 3 that involves Shepard, so why only give the people who had a Mass 1 LI their LI as a vital role to the game, and not do the same for people who had a Mass 2 LI? Why give the Mass 2 players who chose an LI in that game a cameo appearance in the second? And don't say becaus they can die, because we've already gone over this. So tell me why? We already see that Bioware is going to make the game accessible for new players. People who didn't play Mass 1 but played Mass 2 aren't going to be cut short because they romanced someone from the second game. Any LI from any game will get the same treatment in the third. Thinking otherwise is naive. 

-Polite