2338 réponses à ce sujet

[pvt_java]

Il Divo wrote...

Dear God, this thread really just needs to die. Eventually Bioware will tell us what they plan to do and the last 36 pages will have been all for nothing.

Oh please, by the time Bioware tells us, it will be at least 500 pages.

[Iakus]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

I don't think this thread is ever going to die, because the opposition still believes they're correct despite their total lack of sources to back up their claims.

-Polite

It's not going to die because everyone loves to speculate

Everything that anyone comes up with: you, me, Smudboy, is all at best educated guesswork.  We can trot out quotes, inferences, and what's "logical"  or "likely"  but like Il Divo said, until Bioware starts revealing details about ME 3, it's all speculation.

Afterwards, we can all break our arms patting ourselves on the back over who was right about what

[PsyrenY]

LorDC wrote...

I don't see "OMG all this life/death combinations are too complicated to put them into ME 3" argument as valid. If your squadmates would have been returning as NPC that could be a problem. But just look at both ME 1 and ME 2. The only squadmate who plays serious role in main plotline is Liara.

This. I don't see why they can't just have whichever squadmates survived the SM follow you into 3 (remember, you need at least 2 anyway) + Liara. They can then shore up the ranks with (a) the Virmire survivor, ( a replacement Legion if necessary and © a replacement for Mordin if he kicks the bucket, to handle all your anti-Reaper/Collector tech. Bam, we now have biotics, tech and guns covered regardless of which two make it over from the SM.

Also, can we get a Volus on the Normandy?

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 06 août 2010 - 06:50 .

[Merlin 47]

Optimystic_X wrote...

LorDC wrote...

I don't see "OMG all this life/death combinations are too complicated to put them into ME 3" argument as valid. If your squadmates would have been returning as NPC that could be a problem. But just look at both ME 1 and ME 2. The only squadmate who plays serious role in main plotline is Liara.

This. I don't see why they can't just have whichever squadmates survived the SM follow you into 3 (remember, you need at least 2 anyway) + Liara. They can then shore up the ranks with (a) the Virmire survivor, ( a replacement Legion if necessary and © a replacement for Mordin if he kicks the bucket, to handle all your anti-Reaper/Collector tech. Bam, we now have biotics, tech and guns covered regardless of which two make it over from the SM.

Also, can we get a Volus on the Normandy?

Exactly!  Because if all those that survived the Suicide Mission were not made back into squad members, then what's the point of doing their loyalty missions to keep them alive (aside from the achievement)?  There would be none.  So, of course they'd have to return, because for them not to doesn't make any sense at all.

And yes....this thread should die, but unfortunately, someone would make a new one.

[Wittand25]

PoliteAssasin wrote...
Logical conclusion based on what? Stop throwing around words like you know what your talking about kid. He shows absolutely no logic in his argument, it's all his opinion. Show me something to back it up, and then decide whether or not its a logical conclusion.

-Polite

OK this is last time that I will spell the logic out.
1.)Players that import a safegame should be rewarded -> The default start of ME3 will have some dead squadmates-> There will be no significant content for those (providing content that requires a player to spend 10 bucks and dozens of hours playing another game to access is silly)
2.)Every imported safegame must be able to beat the game -> No kill-able squadmember can play a significant role in ME3 (unless there is also a replacement, the Virmire survivor are their own replacement)-> providing a full replacement for every squadmember would be wasted resources (backstory, animation, voice work, ...)-> the roles of all ME2 squadmembers in ME3 must be easy to replace-> Interaction with the squadmember must be limited either temporary (the squadmember joins only for a special mission or right before the endgame) or locally (the squadmember will get a cameo similar to Wrex in ME2).

[Wittand25]

Merlin 47 wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

LorDC wrote...

I don't see "OMG all this life/death combinations are too complicated to put them into ME 3" argument as valid. If your squadmates would have been returning as NPC that could be a problem. But just look at both ME 1 and ME 2. The only squadmate who plays serious role in main plotline is Liara.

This. I don't see why they can't just have whichever squadmates survived the SM follow you into 3 (remember, you need at least 2 anyway) + Liara. They can then shore up the ranks with (a) the Virmire survivor, ( a replacement Legion if necessary and © a replacement for Mordin if he kicks the bucket, to handle all your anti-Reaper/Collector tech. Bam, we now have biotics, tech and guns covered regardless of which two make it over from the SM.

Also, can we get a Volus on the Normandy?

Exactly!  Because if all those that survived the Suicide Mission were not made back into squad members, then what's the point of doing their loyalty missions to keep them alive (aside from the achievement)?  There would be none.  So, of course they'd have to return, because for them not to doesn't make any sense at all.

And yes....this thread should die, but unfortunately, someone would make a new one.

Keeping Wrex alive in ME1 included doing a recruitment mission and a loyalty mission. And he got a cameo in ME2. No doubt there will be a benefit to keep squadmembers alive during ME2, but having all of them return as full teammembers in ME3 does not fit the cost/benefit equation.

[glacier1701]

Merlin 47 wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

LorDC wrote...

I don't see "OMG all this life/death combinations are too complicated to put them into ME 3" argument as valid. If your squadmates would have been returning as NPC that could be a problem. But just look at both ME 1 and ME 2. The only squadmate who plays serious role in main plotline is Liara.

This. I don't see why they can't just have whichever squadmates survived the SM follow you into 3 (remember, you need at least 2 anyway) + Liara. They can then shore up the ranks with (a) the Virmire survivor, ( a replacement Legion if necessary and © a replacement for Mordin if he kicks the bucket, to handle all your anti-Reaper/Collector tech. Bam, we now have biotics, tech and guns covered regardless of which two make it over from the SM.

Also, can we get a Volus on the Normandy?

Exactly!  Because if all those that survived the Suicide Mission were not made back into squad members, then what's the point of doing their loyalty missions to keep them alive (aside from the achievement)?  There would be none.  So, of course they'd have to return, because for them not to doesn't make any sense at all.

And yes....this thread should die, but unfortunately, someone would make a new one.

You kinda hit the nail on the head there in that the ONLY reason to save all the squad is for the achievement. You can blame Microsoft for that attitude in gaming. Achievements can be comepletely unrelated to anything going on in the game but are there so that 'some' players can feel as if they are getting somewhere. To some extent I got more satisfaction out of games where there were no achievements to aim for than I do for ME2. While ME2 is not bad they do still take away from the game somewhat as distractions.

[Jaron Oberyn]

Wittand25 wrote...
having all of them return as full teammembers in ME3 does not fit the cost/benefit equation.

Cause you would know Bioware's budget, especially with EA backing them.  Yeah based on the quality/success of Mass 1 and 2 they're definitely going the cheaper route.

Also, Wrex doesn't have a loyalty mission in Mass 1. He has a sidequest, but that doesn't determine if he lives or dies. Again, shows how much you know. 

iakus wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

I don't think this thread is ever going to die, because the opposition still believes they're correct despite their total lack of sources to back up their claims.

-Polite

It's not going to die because everyone loves to speculate

Everything that anyone comes up with: you, me, Smudboy, is all at best educated guesswork.  We can trot out quotes, inferences, and what's "logical"  or "likely"  but like Il Divo said, until Bioware starts revealing details about ME 3, it's all speculation.

Afterwards, we can all break our arms patting ourselves on the back over who was right about what

Agreed.

-Polite

Modifié par PoliteAssasin, 06 août 2010 - 07:34 .

[Il Divo]

glacier1701 wrote...

You kinda hit the nail on the head there in that the ONLY reason to save all the squad is for the achievement. You can blame Microsoft for that attitude in gaming. Achievements can be comepletely unrelated to anything going on in the game but are there so that 'some' players can feel as if they are getting somewhere. To some extent I got more satisfaction out of games where there were no achievements to aim for than I do for ME2. While ME2 is not bad they do still take away from the game somewhat as distractions.

This. I personally hate achievements. I think they distract from the gameplay/story and take up needless space. I don't feel accomplished that I managed to use a power 5 times or read a guide on how to keep all my squad members alive.  

Everything that anyone comes up with: you, me, Smudboy, is all at best educated guesswork.  We can trot out quotes, inferences, and what's "logical"  or "likely"  but like Il Divo said, until Bioware starts revealing details about ME 3, it's all speculation.

Afterwards, we can all break our arms patting ourselves on the back over who was right about what 

That's kinda why I've avoided giving a strong opinion in this thread. Unlike any other where we can argue to our hearts' content how good/terrible Mass Effect 2's plot may have been with no resolution, we can actually be proven wrong in this thread. And that's a scary feeling.

Modifié par Il Divo, 06 août 2010 - 07:38 .

[Iakus]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...
having all of them return as full teammembers in ME3 does not fit the cost/benefit equation.

Cause you would know Bioware's budget, especially with EA backing them.  Yeah based on the quality/success of Mass 1 and 2 they're definitely going the cheaper route.

Also, Wrex doesn't have a loyalty mission in Mass 1. He has a sidequest, but that doesn't determine if he lives or dies. Again, shows how much you know. 

It is a sidequest, but it's also a proto-loyalty mission.

If you complete this mission, then you do not have to persuade/intimidate Wrex to avoid shooting him.  You can talk him down with regular dialogue.  Kind of like "inciting the crowd" with Tali's loyalty mission rather than doing the paragon/renegade speeches.

[Wittand25]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...
having all of them return as full teammembers in ME3 does not fit the cost/benefit equation.

Cause you would know Bioware's budget, especially with EA backing them.  Yeah based on the quality/success of Mass 1 and 2 they're definitely going the cheaper route.

Also, Wrex doesn't have a loyalty mission in Mass 1. He has a sidequest, but that doesn't determine if he lives or dies. Again, shows how much you know. 

Try keeping him alive without doing his mission, than post again. The situation is exactly the same as for many squadmembers in ME2. Doing his mission increases his chance of survival at a critical plot point not doing it makes it very hard to keep him alive.
I know that Bioware´s budget is not unlimited and that they will make sure that every cent of it is spend to the maximum effect and not to fulfill your unreasonable desires and demands.
But considering that you seem to be unable to discuss like an adult and resort to insult those who do not agree with you as childish, I think that I will now stop with this pointless discussion.

[Il Divo]

Wittand25 wrote...
 Try keeping him alive without doing his mission, than post again. The situation is exactly the same as for many squadmembers in ME2. Doing his mission increases his chance of survival at a critical plot point not doing it makes it very hard to keep him alive.

Aren't you still able to talk Wrex down even if you don't collect his armor? 

[Iakus]

Il Divo wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...
 Try keeping him alive without doing his mission, than post again. The situation is exactly the same as for many squadmembers in ME2. Doing his mission increases his chance of survival at a critical plot point not doing it makes it very hard to keep him alive.

Aren't you still able to talk Wrex down even if you don't collect his armor? 

Yes, but you need at least eight ranks of persuade/intimidate.  Otherwise he gets shot.

[theelementslayer]

Il Divo wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...
 Try keeping him alive without doing his mission, than post again. The situation is exactly the same as for many squadmembers in ME2. Doing his mission increases his chance of survival at a critical plot point not doing it makes it very hard to keep him alive.

Aren't you still able to talk Wrex down even if you don't collect his armor? 

Yup, and its way easy to have enough ren/para to do it. I have never had to kill wrex, dunno why people have so much trouble with it

[SmokePants]

"No point" in saving characters if they don't return as party members in part 3? Well, I guess there was no point in saving the colonists on Feros. No point in saving the council. No point to saving Wrex. No point in sparing Shiala. No point in saving your non-squad crew.

I guess there was also no point in saving the Little Sisters in Bioshock. No point in defending Redcliffe in Dragon Age. No point in saving those friendly creatures at the end of Super Metroid. No point in sparing Megaton in Fallout 3. No point in turning Bastila back to the light side in KOTOR.

I could go on for hours with ever more obscure references to games where the player has the power to save, spare, or let die an NPC. The POINT is obvious -- it makes you feel like a badass to complete the mission with no casualties. Sadly, it doesn't surprise me in the least that you all can lose sight of something so simple and plain. When you learn to see ME2 as a game unto itself and not a glorified preemble or prologue to ME3, you might start to see sense again. Or see it for the first time in your lives -- whatever the case may be.

Modifié par SmokePants, 06 août 2010 - 08:39 .

[Jaron Oberyn]

Wittand25 wrote...
] Try keeping him alive without doing his mission, than post again. 

The only time Wrex died on any of my playthroughs is when I shoot him or signal Ashley to shoot him. I only did his mission on one playthrough. The others, all you need is enough points in charm/intimidate. So it's not difficult at all, but managing your perks.

-Polite

[Jaron Oberyn]

SmokePants wrote...

"No point" in saving characters if they don't return as party members in part 3? Well, I guess there was no point in saving the colonists on Feros. No point in saving the council. No point to saving Wrex. No point in sparing Shiala. No point in saving your non-squad crew.

I guess there was also no point in saving the Little Sisters in Bioshock. No point in defending Redcliffe in Dragon Age. No point in saving those friendly creatures at the end of Super Metroid. No point in sparing Megaton in Fallout 3. No point in turning Bastila back to the light side in KOTOR.

I could go on for hours with ever more obscure references to games where the player has the power to save, spare, or let die an NPC. The POINT is obvious -- it makes you feel like a badass to complete the mission with no casualties. Sadly, it doesn't surprise me in the least that you all can lose sight of something so simple and plain. When you learn to see ME2 as a game unto itself and not a glorified preemble or prologue to ME3, you might start to see sense again. Or see it for the first timein your life -- whatever the case may be.

The reason your argument that you so elaborately posted above is false is based on one big factor - Mass Effect 1 wasn't about the council, or the colonists on ferros, or Wrex, or any of that stuff you listed above. Mass Effect 2 however is ALL about the squadmates. And if you think otherwise, I have several sources from Bioware that flat out say the game is about the squad. Videos, interviews, you name it. That's why your argument isn't valid. You can't compare the previous game with this game, because they're 2 different focuses. You can't compare DA to ME because even Bioware said they were taking completely different approaches with the 2 franchises, and you can't compare the two. So again, this leaves you at nothing.

-Polite

[SmokePants]

And you can save any number of you Mass 2 team without doing their specific loyalty mission. Once again, you guys are finding yourselves bogged down by useless hair-splitting.

[Il Divo]

iakus wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...
 Try keeping him alive without doing his mission, than post again. The situation is exactly the same as for many squadmembers in ME2. Doing his mission increases his chance of survival at a critical plot point not doing it makes it very hard to keep him alive.

Aren't you still able to talk Wrex down even if you don't collect his armor? 

Yes, but you need at least eight ranks of persuade/intimidate.  Otherwise he gets shot.

Ah ok. I could never tell since I always put my first points into intimidate anyway.

[smudboy]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Logical conclusion based on what?

That

1) (All) Characters can die.
2) (Some) characters can not be recruited.
3) (All) Characters can not be imported.

But you knew this.

[SmokePants]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

The reason your argument that you so elaborately posted above is false is based on one big factor - Mass Effect 1 wasn't about the council, or the colonists on ferros, or Wrex, or any of that stuff you listed above. Mass Effect 2 however is ALL about the squadmates. And if you think otherwise, I have several sources from Bioware that flat out say the game is about the squad. Videos, interviews, you name it. That's why your argument isn't valid. You can't compare the previous game with this game, because they're 2 different focuses. You can't compare DA to ME because even Bioware said they were taking completely different approaches with the 2 franchises, and you can't compare the two. So again, this leaves you at nothing.

-Polite

Your problem is that you can't see how being "about" something can mean very different things. Is the Legend of Zelda "about" Triforce pieces? That's what you spend all your time doing. Is Super Mario 64 "about" stars? Quinten Terrantino could sit down at a press junket and try to get people interested in Pulp Fiction by saying it is "about" the contents of a briefcase. From a certain point of view, he would be correct. And Casey would be correct in saying that ME2 is "About" the characters, but on a more meaningful level, NO, these are merely MacGuffins.

ME2 is a game. Games are filled with content -- things for the player to do. Filling that content by doing character driven missions is as good a choice as anything else. It does not mean that these characters are sacred.

Popular culture and media is full of adventures where rag-tag teams are assembled to go on a mission. That's where Casey Hudson drew his inspiration. In the vast majority of cases, there was no sequel and there certainly wasn't an import feature. The teams were assembled for a task and then that's it. Why is that concept SO HARD to even entertain?

Modifié par SmokePants, 06 août 2010 - 09:02 .

[Jaron Oberyn]

SmokePants wrote...
Your problem is that you can't see how being "about" something can mean very different things. 

You should stop while your ahead. About means ABOUT. It doesn't mean "Oh only part of the game is the squad" or "the game's about the squad but we have collector bases for you to raid to". No it means that Mass Effect 2's story is about building up your team, getting to know them, getting them loyal, and THEN taking them on the suicide mission. The whole building up your team plot takes up 99% of the game. That 1%, the one hour mission you do at the omega 4 relay, is not the bulk of the game. Again, do I have to provide the various sources where Bioware said that the squadmates are the focus of the game, and that the game is all about the characters you meet and recruit? 

Your either being stubborn just because, or you really have a hard time comprehending things. I'm sincerely hoping it's the former.

-Polite

[KotOREffecT]

Badpie wrote...

although I guess they did a pretty ****** poor job of this in 2 when they decided not to make a big deal out of Cerberus, and find convenient "story driven" ways to exclude previous squad members (which wouldn't have been so bad had the writing on Horizon and Illium not been some of the worst Bioware has ever done).

Your brought back from the dead and work for Cerberus in ME 2 and report to TIM, that is a pretty big deal. You can also further their cause by giving them the Collector Base, pretty big stuff to me. You also find out that Cerberus isn't as monsterous as we thought, and learn more about them. ME 2 focused on Cerberus while ME1 Alliance/Council and the choice at the end involving them. In ME3 you'll probably have choice between the two or go on your own.

I also didn't think the writing on Horizon/Ilium was the worst, it was just mostly akward, and what could you have expected from Ash acting that way, you were dead for two years and show up working for a known terrorrist group. She was taken back and put up her guard and acted like you turned to the darkside or something, yea she def overreacted, but her email explained why. As for Liara, she was def obsessed and def went darkside, it did seem a little weird but she was doing it for Shep.