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Squad Composition of ME3- A discussion


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#1001
Zulu_DFA

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Bluko wrote...

SmokePants wrote...

But you are right about Bioware not restricting significant chunks of content based on a player's import save state. That's a point I've been meaning to make. Bioware will let you accept or decline content, but they aren't going to deny you access to any of it from the outset. Every game starts with equal, open possibilities for every player. If they didn't do it that way, they would be punishing players based on how they chose to play a previous game. That is not the goal. The goal is to treat every decision and outcome as equally valid and that means every ME2 import is going to see 95% the same content as every other ME2 import.


Glad to see someone else shares my general reasoning.

Each game is meant to be a standalone title. A.K.A. you don't have to play the previous game in order to play the next installment. If it was the other around the games would actually be more like expansions, which they are not. The game has to potentially play the same for everyone. Think about it. Say one person has only 5 potential squadmates and another person has 8 potential squadmates. That's terrible game design and Bioware knows it. Sure it may be great coming from a continuity point of view, but they aren't going to make a game where someone can have twice as many squadmates as someone else. It would just be unfair and you can bet there'd be critics who'd call them out on that.

That said I don't entirely understand why Bioware pretty much lets you kill your entire crew in ME2. Okay I do understand why, and that's to make the game more dramatic at the end, but they really dug themselves into a hole for ME3 this way. Also the other bad thing about in ME2 is you basically can choose who to die at certain parts of the final mission. Okay "yes" you were able to choose whether Ashley or Kaidan dies in ME1, but that choice was forced upon you. In ME2 assuming you know what you are doing you're never forced to choose whether to save someone or not. You can save everyone or alternatively kill everyone.

I mean sure it's great playing the Hero and you're able to save everybody. But this was suppose to be a suicide mission. I kind of expect some people to die no matter what. I thought that was the whole point. I mean it's really not that hard to save your entire crew. I mean I did it without much thought. Miranda the whole game tells what you need to do. 1) You need to have everyone at their best/loyal 2) You need to make sure the Ship is up to snuff with all the upgrades 3) You need this _  person to do this _ job in the final mission. I mean I can  understand screwing up one or two loyalty missions and maybe not getting all the upgrades, but I mean yeah.

I just think the game would have had a little more meaning if there was a time or two you had to choose between who could live and die. Probably would have made making ME3 easier too so I don't get why Bioware didn't do more Ashley vs. Kaidan scenarios. But what's done is done.

This also brings up another point. Because it's a suicide mission and because anyone can die during it, it means simply your entire ME2 crew is expendable. And if they are meant to be expendable I can't see them playing major roles (like a squadmate would) in ME3.


Be glad twice, these are my thoughts too.

#1002
Soverign 666

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What the hell this pointless arguement got sticky? God damn it this arguement will NEVER be resolved until ME3 comes out.

#1003
KingDan97

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Soverign 666 wrote...

What the hell this pointless arguement got sticky? God damn it this arguement will NEVER be resolved until ME3 comes out.

This could prevent this pointless argument having more then one thread... So it's worth stickying.

#1004
Bluko

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Soverign 666 wrote...

What the hell this pointless arguement got sticky? God damn it this arguement will NEVER be resolved until ME3 comes out.


Yeah I'm not sure who decided to make this thread a sticky of all things. Not sure if it's because this topic is always being discussed or if this is one of the more civil threads on the topic. Either way I am humbled and honored.

And no the arguement won't be settled until more detail is released on ME3, but come on what else do we really have to discuss about here? There's only so many times we can discuss what happens in-game before all that gets old. So really all we're left with is to say what we did and did not like, and what we think ME3 we'll be like. Which is what this thread is partly about.

Zulu_DFA...
Be glad twice, these are my thoughts too.


Well hey maybe the entire community won't force me to commit seppuku if I turn out to be wrong now.

#1005
Il Divo

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Bluko wrote...
And no the arguement won't be settled until more detail is released on ME3, but come on what else do we really have to discuss about here? There's only so many times we can discuss what happens in-game before all that gets old. So really all we're left with is to say what we did and did not like, and what we think ME3 we'll be like. Which is what this thread is partly about.


Well, we could talk about our undying passion for Tali instead....

#1006
Onyx Jaguar

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We haven't had our quota fo rTali threads today. what is up with that

#1007
Il Divo

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It's clearly a sign of the impending apocalypse.

#1008
FlyinElk212

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Two squadmates from both ME1 & 2 have to be alive in everyone's games: Liara and Ash/Kaidan.

Two squadmates are needed for minimum groundteam requirement.

My theory is that Bioware purposely worked it that way, so in ME3, everyone will at LEAST have two squadmates, and 10 flex (all from ME2 barring DLC) depending on whether or not they lived in ME2. That way, they have 12 squadmates total. Again.

Why would that be hard to make?

#1009
Soverign 666

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I appreciate the want for disscussion but this arguement is going nowhere no one is convincing anyone of anything which seems to make the debate pointless.

#1010
Bluko

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Il Divo wrote...

Well, we could talk about our undying passion for Tali instead....


I like Garrus!

Posted Image


FlyinElk212 wrote...


Two squadmates from both ME1 & 2 have to be alive in everyone's games: Liara and Ash/Kaidan.

Two squadmates are needed for minimum groundteam requirement.


True enough. There is a slight possibility that they could force two ME2 characters into ME3 as squadmates based on that stipulation. Maybe like Garrus and Tali that way Bioware can at least partially avoid a total fanboy apocolypase... or maybe Legion and Grunt since there would be easy ways to recreate those characters. (Legion back-ups his data with the Geth Network, make another Grunt clone.) Even though doing so would be incredibly stupid/immersion breaking if you ask me.

I mean they kind of did that already with Conrad Verner by accident. I didn't point a gun in Conrad's face in ME1, but apparently I did...

<_<

Oh wait though you can import your ME2 save even if you got your Shepard killed. So it still doesn't matter if you killed everyone anyways. Bah!

Damn you Optimism you unfaithful hussy when it comes to facts/reality! Oh well at least I still have you Pessism.

Modifié par Bluko, 08 août 2010 - 05:43 .


#1011
Wittand25

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FlyinElk212 wrote...

Two squadmates from both ME1 & 2 have to be alive in everyone's games: Liara and Ash/Kaidan.
Two squadmates are needed for minimum groundteam requirement.
My theory is that Bioware purposely worked it that way, so in ME3, everyone will at LEAST have two squadmates, and 10 flex (all from ME2 barring DLC) depending on whether or not they lived in ME2. That way, they have 12 squadmates total. Again.
Why would that be hard to make?

For starters players could end up with a just biotics team, without soilders or engineers (e.g.Kaidan,Liara,Samara,Jack) and that would screw game balance. Also it would require a lot of work on content that is very hard to access. It is one thing to provide content that can be accessed by sitting through the five minutes of character creation, but a completely different thing to make content that requires a player to spend another 10 dollars and 40 hours playing another game to unlock.

#1012
Gibb_Garrus

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why is this **** stickied?

#1013
Guest_Luc0s_*

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Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bluko wrote...

SmokePants wrote...

But you are right about Bioware not restricting significant chunks of content based on a player's import save state. That's a point I've been meaning to make. Bioware will let you accept or decline content, but they aren't going to deny you access to any of it from the outset. Every game starts with equal, open possibilities for every player. If they didn't do it that way, they would be punishing players based on how they chose to play a previous game. That is not the goal. The goal is to treat every decision and outcome as equally valid and that means every ME2 import is going to see 95% the same content as every other ME2 import.


Glad to see someone else shares my general reasoning.


Be glad twice, these are my thoughts too.


And mine too. This is what I've been trying to say the whole time. Glad to see that there are at least some people in this thread who know what they're talking about.

I really don't understand that there are some people here who still think that BioWare is going to bring back a big portion of your ME2 crew as your ME3 squad. That's just wishful thinking and not gonna happen for all the reasons that Smoke, Bluko, Zulu and I are giving here.

Modifié par Luc0s, 08 août 2010 - 01:39 .


#1014
Zulu_DFA

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Bluko wrote...
I mean they kind of did that already with Conrad Verner by accident. I didn't point a gun in Conrad's face in ME1, but apparently I did...


You, see there is a way, to avoid this discontinuity with Konrad. You have just make sure he dies in ME1...

Will also work in the case of ME2 squadmates. No doubt BioWare will screw up with them just like with Conrad, even if they are made into 5-minute cameos. So I just killed off most of them. Posted Image

Posted Image

Anyway, Wreav > Wrex.

#1015
FlyinElk212

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Wittand25 wrote...

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Two squadmates from both ME1 & 2 have to be alive in everyone's games: Liara and Ash/Kaidan.
Two squadmates are needed for minimum groundteam requirement.
My theory is that Bioware purposely worked it that way, so in ME3, everyone will at LEAST have two squadmates, and 10 flex (all from ME2 barring DLC) depending on whether or not they lived in ME2. That way, they have 12 squadmates total. Again.
Why would that be hard to make?

For starters players could end up with a just biotics team, without soilders or engineers (e.g.Kaidan,Liara,Samara,Jack) and that would screw game balance. Also it would require a lot of work on content that is very hard to access. It is one thing to provide content that can be accessed by sitting through the five minutes of character creation, but a completely different thing to make content that requires a player to spend another 10 dollars and 40 hours playing another game to unlock.


I would like to believe that someone starting a new game from ME3 won't just have Liara and Ash/Kaidan, but a set group from ME2 that lived (maybe like Miranda, Mordin, Grunt, something like that). Someone who imports their ME2 game NEEDS to have at least 2 other squadmates with them by the end of the game, so I don't think it'll be an issue of squad size...

As for squad balance, I don't understand that argument. Sure, it'd make certain fighhts of the game a lot tougher (fighting Geth without a Techie would be tough), but it doesn't make the game impossible. If you still think that's a problem then, then maybe they can have 1 switch replacement character for Miranda's spot (she seems to have the most story influence). Make that character a techie and problem solved: you hav a Biotic in Liara and a Tech in the replacement.

As for the "packed content", I don't think it'd be that difficult to make. You simply make every living character have additional content that doesn't get unlocked if they died in ME2--no alternative dialogue with new characters, sans that 1 replacement character for Miranda. And if you think Bioware WOULDN'T wanna make a game whose major content is unlocked through another purchase of another one of their games, then you're kidding yourself.

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 08 août 2010 - 03:28 .


#1016
FlyinElk212

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Bluko wrote...

<_<

Oh wait though you can import your ME2 save even if you got your Shepard killed. So it still doesn't matter if you killed everyone anyways. Bah!

Damn you Optimism you unfaithful hussy when it comes to facts/reality!


...No you can't...... o.O

#1017
SmokePants

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I think it was explained that the Paragon result of the Conrad Verner ME1 interactions was an e-mail and the PA announcement on Illium (which doesn't really make sense unless he started that charity during the time he thought you were dead). Somewhere late in development, someone at Bioware realized that that was lame, when the Renegade outcome was to actually meet the guy on Illium. But instead of producing a new Paragon dialogue chain, they just said "F it" and switched all encounters over to Renegade. It almost worked. If he hadn't accused Sheperd of threatening him with a gun, most wouldn't have raised an eyebrow.

Just goes to show that ALL content hews pretty closely to the same axis.

By the way, can we stop saying "Kaiden/Ashley" or "Ashley/Kaiden" and just call the two-headed abomination, "Kashlen"? Half of Kashlen is dead, being posthumously dragged around by the tenacious live half and it may or may not be in love with you, but either way, you can expect it to act super pissy toward you. Be afraid.

Modifié par SmokePants, 08 août 2010 - 03:50 .


#1018
ReluctantMind

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It seems like the only thing we can really be sure of until ME3 is released is that everyone has their own theories, that each of those theories is supported by a version of logic that makes sense to them, and there will be very little convincing, but definitely sometimes interesting/sometimes annoying exchanges.

#1019
Jaron Oberyn

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Bluko wrote...
Yeah I'm not sure who decided to make this thread a sticky of all things. Not sure if it's because this topic is always being discussed or if this is one of the more civil threads on the topic. Either way I am humbled and honored.


Don't flatter yourself. :whistle:This thread got stickied because KingDan requested it from a moderator. It has nothing to do with your title, in fact he even said the title will most likely get changed to have a neutral standpoint. 

-Polite

#1020
javierabegazo

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True enough, the thread was stickied to prevent 10+ threads popping up all discussing the same topic.

#1021
Sklibbles

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Who's to say that the deceased squadmates don't get Lazarus'd? Or rather, a handful that Bioware picks to be continuous into the next title. I realize that it's an incredibly expensive project that takes years to complete, but I don't believe it's unreasonable for either Cerberus or some other shadow organization to resurrect the team that took down the Reaper threat (presuming that any of them died).



However, obviously this would not apply to every party member in ME1/2. Fan-favorites Tali and Garrus are *bound* to be in ME3 whether they lived or died, as well as other important characters such as Miranda (2nd in command at Cerberus, project leader of Lazarus, etc.).



In the end, it's not fair to take a side in the debate because we don't have any real facts to go off of other than every squad member can die.

#1022
Guest_Tighue_*

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I agree that most, if not all, survivors of the suicide mission will probably get the "Wrex" treatment in Mass Effect 3. But I can be cool with that. In exchange, I merely demand squaddies voiced by Nathan Fillion and Claudia Black. Throw in squaddies voiced by Edward James Olmos and Callum Keith Rennie and I'll even stop sending Garrus birthday cards.

Posted Image

Modifié par Tighue, 08 août 2010 - 06:58 .


#1023
Gyroscopic_Trout

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I really don't see how it would be a problem to add in some of the ME2 cast as squad members in ME2.  As I mentioned in one of the other threads on this redundant topic, Dragon Age gives you the option to ignore, banish or kill just about all of your potential party members and the story never skips a beat.  A squad member not being alive in ME3 would be just as difficult to program into the game as allowing the player to choose not to recruit a new one.

Wittand25 wrote...
For starters players could end up with a just biotics team, without soilders or engineers (e.g.Kaidan,Liara,Samara,Jack) and that would screw game balance. Also it would require a lot of work on content that is very hard to access. It is one thing to provide content that can be accessed by sitting through the five minutes of character creation, but a completely different thing to make content that requires a player to spend another 10 dollars and 40 hours playing another game to unlock.


There's an easy fix to that; give players 1 new squad member and have his/her abilities tailored to what your squad now lacks.  For instance, if you have no tech expert, he defaults to tech skills.  Or have it up to the player's discretion.  Maybe Shepard is recruiting to rebuild the team after the suicide mission and mentions to TIM, Anderson or whoever that he needs a (tech/biotic/combat) expert, and he says "I know just the guy".  Wouldn't alter their personality or backstory, just their skillset (would Thane be a different character if he used tech skills instead of biotics?).

#1024
SmokePants

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Come on. Nobody else is getting Lazarus'd. For one thing, it's a cheap out. For another, the internal logic seems to require the recovery of remains -- remains that may have been obliterated.

That, like many of the "hoping against hope" suggestions would serve to hurt the product. At the end of the day, these characters aren't worth the damage they could do to Mass Effect 3's overall cohesion. Complication leads to inconsistency and inconsistency leads to failure.

Modifié par SmokePants, 08 août 2010 - 08:05 .


#1025
MaxQuartiroli

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Luc0s wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Bluko wrote...

SmokePants wrote...

But you are right about Bioware not restricting significant chunks of content based on a player's import save state. That's a point I've been meaning to make. Bioware will let you accept or decline content, but they aren't going to deny you access to any of it from the outset. Every game starts with equal, open possibilities for every player. If they didn't do it that way, they would be punishing players based on how they chose to play a previous game. That is not the goal. The goal is to treat every decision and outcome as equally valid and that means every ME2 import is going to see 95% the same content as every other ME2 import.


Glad to see someone else shares my general reasoning.


Be glad twice, these are my thoughts too.


And mine too. This is what I've been trying to say the whole time. Glad to see that there are at least some people in this thread who know what they're talking about.

I really don't understand that there are some people here who still think that BioWare is going to bring back a big portion of your ME2 crew as your ME3 squad. That's just wishful thinking and not gonna happen for all the reasons that Smoke, Bluko, Zulu and I are giving here.


And you can add also my theories to reinforce this group...
ME3 will be a stand-alone game, and like every stand-alone game I expect it will provide allmost the same content for every player, no matter if/how they played before..

Modifié par MaxQuartiroli, 08 août 2010 - 11:37 .