2338 réponses à ce sujet

[FlyinElk212]

smudboy wrote...

We're not saying they won't be in ME3 if they survive.  We're saying they won't be fully fledged squadmates.

If they'll simply be there just to be a squadmate, then sure, that's no big deal.  They'll just have no depth to what we're accustomed to, which is not what ME characters are known for.  I can't see that happening, but it's the easy way out.

Two of the reasons that there will be new squadmates is 1) it's easier and simpler to accomplish, considering everything we're discussing 2) Casey said so.

You know what's funny? As soon as I finished typing out my counter argument, I started to realize that my suggestion and thought process applies just as easily to cameo roles as it does squadmates. lol--shot myself in the foot there...

I don't know--call me a hopeless optimist, but I just wish Bioware would stick to further developing their own characters instead of introducing new ones at the last minute. I feel as though new squadmates popping out of nowhere would seem like another cop-out: AHA! Here's Problem A in the plot of ME3? Well HERE'S A NEW GUY COMING OUT OF NOWHERE TO FIX IT! Where the crap was he in the first two games, who knows??

But I do understand the limitations and Bioware's conundrum with creating killable scenarios. Here's to hoping any new squaddies are at least characters we've run across from both previous games.

[Jaron Oberyn]

smudboy wrote...

And that's just one example. Simply put, I do not believe that "replacement characters" would be needed to advance the plot. Instead, characters who are alive from ME2 can provide additional content that facilitates situations in ME3. That way, they can still seem integral to the story while not being completely necessary.

Characters are not necessary to advance a plot.  To make the characters relevant however, it would be helpful to the story and their involvement in it, else they once again become fluff.  The issue is the placeholder character, which doesn't make the character integral, but makes the placeholder integral.  Thus, the characters, if treated as placeholders, would be plot relevant.

(This, coming from a previous chapter, where characters were plot irrelevant.)

Your wrong. Bioware stated themselves multiple times that the entire game is about the squadmates. The squadmates. They are plot relevant. I think we'll take Bioware's word over yours any day.

Source 1
Start at marker 0:50 - 1:05

"The characters are the real story of ME2"  - Casey Hudson
Source 2

We're not saying they won't be in ME3 if they survive.  We're saying they won't be fully fledged squadmates.

If they'll simply be there just to be a squadmate, then sure, that's no big deal.  They'll just have no depth to what we're accustomed to, which is not what ME characters are known for.  I can't see that happening, but it's the easy way out.

Two of the reasons that there will be new squadmates is 1) it's easier and simpler to accomplish, considering everything we're discussing 2) Casey said so.

This is pure speculation on your part. First of all, Bioware isn't going the easy route. If they were, there wouldn't be importable saves and the amount of choices we have in the game that will impact the subsequent title. Second, Casey Hudson never said we were going to have new squadmates. He said that we'll still keep the people that make the Mass Effect experience personal, but part of that experience is also meeting new people. Never once did he say squadmates. Again, this is pure speculation on your part. 

Proof that they will be squadmates in the third game, because there are consequences to letting people die, or live:

"Yes, it's definitely difficult to continue the fiction when we allow major characters to be **bleep**ed off by player actions. But, that's part of the fun, and the impact of major consequences. One reason that the love interests were not recruitable in ME2 (but are still part of the story) is that they need to be around for the ongoing story in ME3."

Source - http://www.giantbomb.com/mass-effect-2/61-21590/mass-effect-2-qa-with-producer-casey-hudson/35-382636/

-Polite

[FlyinElk212]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

"Yes, it's definitely difficult to continue the fiction when we allow major characters to be **bleep**ed off by player actions. But, that's part of the fun, and the impact of major consequences. One reason that the love interests were not recruitable in ME2 (but are still part of the story) is that they need to be around for the ongoing story in ME3."

Source - http://www.giantbomb.com/mass-effect-2/61-21590/mass-effect-2-qa-with-producer-casey-hudson/35-382636/

-Polite

I appreciate you backing me up, my friend, but I should point out that a lack of evidence for excluding ME2 squadmates as ME3 squadmates doesn't prove that they'll certainly be ME3 squadmates. Even in this quote you mentioned, Casey states that "they need to be around for the ongoing story in ME3". Nothing about whether or not they're cameos or squadmates.

Granted, Liara and Ash/Kaidan are likely shoe-ins for the ME3 squad, but the same problem still exists for the ME2 squad. Yes, Casey DID state that "The characters are the real story of ME2", but again, "of ME2". No guarantees about ME3. Simply put, this evidence connotes that they'll try to give the characters an impact on the storyline--no indications as to whether that's on the squad or not.

[Yeti13]

that was a good interview you found Polite Assassin



CaseyH-ME2: "While Mass Effect fans have grown to love our characters, you can imagine that after spending years crafting them, we have at least as much of an attachment to them. So it's definitely not a case of the team disregarding player's decisions with them or interest in those characters - in fact, it's the opposite..."



CaseyH-ME2: "We actually want to make sure these characters survive the ME2 story, which ultimately is a suicide mission: some of your crew will almost certainly die. Some of the ME1 characters are back, and recruitable (more than you might think), and the ones that aren't still play an important role in the story and will be around for ME3 - which we can't say for the new characters."



The people who talked above about Bioware would not be willing to put in the work have never seen the bonus stuff that came with ME1 and ME2, or have never seen the two Sci vrs Fi episodes on Mass Effect, Bioware cares about the artistic quality of games and they like to live up the great standards that they have always had. I do not believe they will take the easy way out and make ME3 a money grab

[smudboy]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Your wrong. Bioware stated themselves multiple times that the entire game is about the squadmates. The squadmates. They are plot relevant. I think we'll take Bioware's word over yours any day.

Source 1
Start at marker 0:50 - 1:05

"The characters are the real story of ME2"  - Casey Hudson
Source 2

You're showing me quotes from interviews of before the game was released.  Wonderful.

Tell me where in ME2 the squadmates are plot relevant.  All of them.  Get to it.

This is pure speculation on your part. First of all, Bioware isn't going the easy route. If they were, there wouldn't be importable saves and the amount of choices we have in the game that will impact the subsequent title. Second, Casey Hudson never said we were going to have new squadmates. He said that we'll still keep the people that make the Mass Effect experience personal, but part of that experience is also meeting new people. Never once did he say squadmates. Again, this is pure speculation on your part. 

I don't know what you mean by "easy route."

http://www.joystiq.c...-mass-effect-2/

"Mordin was one of the more popular ones. I think the development of
some of the existing characters people continued to enjoy, like the
stuff with Garrus and Tali. We always try to balance the fact that,
people will say "I want all my characters back from the previous game
because that's what made the first game great." But when you think
about it, part of what made the previous game great is the process of
meeting those characters for the first time. That has to be part of the
experience too, how you meet new characters."

Proof that they will be squadmates in the third game, because there are consequences to letting people die, or live:

"Yes, it's definitely difficult to continue the fiction when we allow major characters to be **bleep**ed off by player actions. But, that's part of the fun, and the impact of major consequences. One reason that the love interests were not recruitable in ME2 (but are still part of the story) is that they need to be around for the ongoing story in ME3."

Source - http://www.giantbomb.com/mass-effect-2/61-21590/mass-effect-2-qa-with-producer-casey-hudson/35-382636/

-Polite

That doesn't prove any ME2 characters will be squadmates in ME3.  "One reason that the love interests were not recruitable in ME2 is that they need t obe around for the ongoing story in ME3."  That just means the ME1 love interests (Liara, Kaidan/Ash), will be in ME3.

In regards to "yes, it's definitely difficult to continue the fiction when we allow major characters to be **bleep**ed off by player actions", then that is a strike against having squadmates in ME2 be back in ME3.

Because.  They.  Can.  Die.

[Yeti13]

Where they are plot relevant???? What about the Quarian and Geth war? What about the the fate of the Krogan? Yes some like Jack do not do anything to the plot except show that Cerberus is screwed up in the head but others like Mordin, Legion, Tali, Garrus is a long shot but he does still have connections to the Turian Military and C-sec

[SmokePants]

The Geth/Quarian conflict and the Korgan genophage are not plot relevant. They will not be resolved in ME3. They are part of the world of Mass Effect and will remain fixtures beyond this initial trilogy.

[Bad King]

I actually want to see new squaddies in mass effect 3. As the op says it would be cool to bump into your former squaddies in me3 as ally NPCs but not as squadmates. The galaxy is a vast place, I'm sure there are many eager warriors and scientists willing to join Shepard and fight by his side. Oh and I support a Batarian, Mech and Vorcha* for squadmates!

*not a weakling vorcha like in me2 but a heavily armoured tank vorcha with a helmet and large gun.

[Zulu_DFA]

SmokePants wrote...

The Geth/Quarian conflict and the Korgan genophage are not plot relevant. They will not be resolved in ME3. They are part of the world of Mass Effect and will remain fixtures beyond this initial trilogy.

Pretty much this.

Or, Quarian issues and Krogan issues were added to ME2 because of Tali and Wrex, not the other way around.

[Jaron Oberyn]

smudboy wrote...

In regards to "yes, it's definitely difficult to continue the fiction when we allow major characters to be **bleep**ed off by player actions", then that is a strike against having squadmates in ME2 be back in ME3.

Because.  They.  Can.  Die.

And there you go taking the quote out of context. Why don't you post the entire quote?

"Yes, it's definitely difficult to continue the fiction when we allow
major characters to be **bleep**ed off by player actions. But, that's
part of the fun, and the impact of major consequences. One reason that
the love interests were not recruitable in ME2 (but are still part of
the story) is that they need to be around for the ongoing story in ME3."

Because. Its. Major. Consequences.

-Polite

[Jaron Oberyn]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

SmokePants wrote...

The Geth/Quarian conflict and the Korgan genophage are not plot relevant. They will not be resolved in ME3. They are part of the world of Mass Effect and will remain fixtures beyond this initial trilogy.

Pretty much this.

Or, Quarian issues and Krogan issues were added to ME2 because of Tali and Wrex, not the other way around.

And you would know that, because you work for Bioware. See this is an example of falsification of facts. At least I post sources to go with my claims, these guys are posting their speculation as if it were announced by Bioware. Extremely amusing.

-Polite

[Lilicat]

Polite



I really hope that I can say to u about ME3..... "u were right all the time"

[smudboy]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

smudboy wrote...

In regards to "yes, it's definitely difficult to continue the fiction when we allow major characters to be **bleep**ed off by player actions", then that is a strike against having squadmates in ME2 be back in ME3.

Because.  They.  Can.  Die.

And there you go taking the quote out of context. Why don't you post the entire quote?

"Yes, it's definitely difficult to continue the fiction when we allow
major characters to be **bleep**ed off by player actions. But, that's
part of the fun, and the impact of major consequences. One reason that
the love interests were not recruitable in ME2 (but are still part of
the story) is that they need to be around for the ongoing story in ME3."

Because. Its. Major. Consequences.

-Polite

I took nothing out of context.

Casey wanted ME1 love interest characters to be non-recruitable in ME2.  That is, Liara, Ash/Kaidan.  That's all.

1) That says nothing of ME2 characters.  Who.  Can.  All.  Die.  Therefore, within the context of his statement, any ME2 romances will not play an important role.
2) They don't even need to be love intersets.  Romance is entirely optional.  In fact, having a love interset has nothing to do with anything.  He's clearly referring to the Liara, Ash/Kaidan characters.

So once again I fail to see what you're trying to say here.

I'll repeat myself.  If it's "definitely difficult to continue the fiction when we allow major characters to be **bleep**ed off by player actions", then that is a clear strike against having squadmates in ME2 be back in ME3, because they can all die.

[SmokePants]

Ha. "Major Consequences". To Bioware, the Conrad Verner encounters  had "major consequences" for ME2. Anyone who has been around the block knows how useless quotes like that are.

It's going to be "extremely amusing" when it turns out the guys who don't care to hunt down every PR-laden developer quote in existence have a better picture of what will actually happen. Like I said, some of us have been around the block enough to know that this EXACT discussion happens every time and always ends the same way. You are caught in the wrong side of history repeating itself.

Modifié par SmokePants, 11 août 2010 - 11:59 .

[Jaron Oberyn]

smudboy wrote...

So once again I fail to see what you're trying to say here.

It's ok. I don't expect you to understand. A conversation of this degree is too much for some people. And that's totally fine. Just try to read along and you might get something out of it. Just might.

Lilicat wrote...

Polite

I really hope that I can say to u about ME3..... "u were right all the time"

I probably won't be right about everything, but as far as the squaddies go I'm fairly certain. I know Bioware isn't going to give the entire team cameos, and give us a whole new one. We might lose Zaeed, Kasumi, and Samara but that'd be it. Thane is dead anyways.

I've had debates with people over this topic, Liara DLC (before it was announced) and the expansion pack. I've been able to say "I told you so" to the Liara DLC pessimists, people who thought it was cut from the game and not coming, and will be doing the same with the expansion pessimists. I'm certain I'll be able to do it a third time with the squadmates debate.

I'm not trying to say I'm right all of the time, but when evidence leads to a conclusion, that conclusion must be followed unless new evidence comes up. So far, nothing new. So I'm just going on what we have so far. This issue will be cleared up in the beginning of the Mass 3 coverage I'm sure.

-Polite

Modifié par PoliteAssasin, 12 août 2010 - 12:15 .

[smudboy]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

smudboy wrote...

So once again I fail to see what you're trying to say here.

It's ok. I don't expect you to understand. A conversation of this degree is too much for some people. And that's totally fine. Just try to read along and you might get something out of it. Just might.

Seriously, what point are you trying to make?  Either clarify your ideas or don't bother.

[Yeti13]

yes they are, you are going to need both to fight the reapers, thats why you have the option to discourage the Quarians from attacking the Geth, you will also need the Krogan. EVery species in the Galaxy will be needed to to defeat them, not just Humans.



A few Jedi like Yoda wouldn't hurt either



P.S that was a joke

[Yeti13]

responding the smokepants, sorry i didn't clarify

[Jaron Oberyn]

Yeti13 wrote...

yes they are, you are going to need both to fight the reapers, thats why you have the option to discourage the Quarians from attacking the Geth, you will also need the Krogan. EVery species in the Galaxy will be needed to to defeat them, not just Humans.

A few Jedi like Yoda wouldn't hurt either

P.S that was a joke

Exactly. A major consequence of killing wrex or jumping into the second game first, is that you won't have unified Korgans to help you.

-Polite

[Gundar3]

Im just gonna jump in here... As much as I would love to see all characters from both games make an appearance and be recruit-able, Im fairly certain its impossible from a programing standpoint (or at the very least take years of development time that Bioware doesn't have). As smudboy and others have stated, its the fact that players can kill their own squadmates in ME1 and essentially dictate who lives and dies across the end of ME2.

The problem is the number of variables are too extreme to program. If Jack died in the suicide run because the player lacked the loyalty or the upgrades to keep her alive, then it would be impossible to view her and recruit her in ME3 (clearly). This leads to two outcomes though a) we get a new character that is also a powerful biotic that is a brand new cool character or she is recruit-able for people that kept her alive. The problem with "b)" is that Bioware would have to develop/ script/ and voice her character from scratch solely for the people that kept her alive and thats the very problem... It would be a tremendous amount of work for for only "some" people who played ME2. This is actually the problem with ALL the ME2 characters whereas in ME1 you could have a max of 3 deaths. ME1 chars would still be a pain, but much more manageable than the 12 ME2 squad mates.

Bioware has essentially put itself in a programing hole. If the people in your team died because of unavoidable plot points then you could have all the people that lived... However, that would greatly diminish the roleplaying fun of the game so Im glad they didnt pursue that style of game, with characters that die bcause the plot demands it. As I said earlier, I would love to have all squad mates across both games plus new ones at least recruit able. But as cool as it would be I think its an impossibility and Ive gotten my hopes up before as Smokepants said. I actually thought that in ME2, the consequnces of ME1 would be shown in their extreme. If I ended ME2 fully renegade and strengthened Earth and its dominance in the galaxy as best I could (which I did in 1 playthrough) I hoped to see an extremely militarized new universe to play in. I wanted to see what happened to Earthen politics and the oppression of the other species. That was the point for my renegade, make Earth and its fleet unstoppable and defeat the reapers. I wanted the similar outcome for my paragon playthroughs but the galaxy undivided... Instead I got neither. ME2 moved to another part of the galaxy and we got "hints" at best of what life was like in citadel space.

Bioware had to have created two separate games for me to be appeased. I realize that in hindsight, but I still expected to see it... It was my own hype talking and I had total faith in Bioware that they would show the difference between the galaxy of a paragon and a renegade. As I said, they would of had to make two separate games - a programing and fiscal nightmare. Now I have faith that ME3 will be awesome, Im just trying to be realistic. They MAY include some characters from ME1 that could not die... but Im not expecting too much from the ME2 team.

Modifié par Gundar3, 12 août 2010 - 02:02 .

[Yeti13]

i dont think they would have to fulfill that super biotic role, Mass Effect is game about decisions, if you did not gain Jacks trust or try hard to keep her alive then you should have to suffer the consequences. Bioware does not need to come up with 12 new characters just because they could have died.



Look: Lets say 15 characters Max (more than that and it would get kinda ridiculous)



possible 12 characters that survive (has to be at least two to be able to import)



+ possibly Liara and if you stayed loyal to alliance/council not illusive man whoever survied on Virmire



+ plus 2 maybe 3 new characters.



They don't need to create a whole new cast just limit the players who did not lead in the second game so you might just have 6 SM in ME3 or up to Possibly 15 SM



much easier then coming up with 12 new faces, characters, back-stories, etc.

[snfonseka]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

SmokePants wrote...

The Geth/Quarian conflict and the Korgan genophage are not plot relevant. They will not be resolved in ME3. They are part of the world of Mass Effect and will remain fixtures beyond this initial trilogy.

Pretty much this.

Or, Quarian issues and Krogan issues were added to ME2 because of Tali and Wrex, not the other way around.

And you would know that, because you work for Bioware. See this is an example of falsification of facts. At least I post sources to go with my claims, these guys are posting their speculation as if it were announced by Bioware. Extremely amusing.

-Polite

I don't mind speculation... What the point of forum discussions if there is no speculation. But the point is as you said, some guys are posting speculations as they are the project directors, without any facts to back them up. Well.... may be thats their writing style, instead of "I think that...", "My opinion is..." they say "This will happen in ME3" (without facts) and some are not open minded ehough to listen others opinions also and so keen on telling their opinion to others.

[Pulse-eater]

I don’t think its impossible for them to continue as squadmates. I can think of at least two possible ways potentially dead ME2 squadmates can be integrated into the ME3 squad composition.

(1) Has it occurred to anyone a squadmate and ''cameo'' role for an individual character do not need to be mutually exclusive conditions in the same game?

Example.
If Tali has survived she is with Shepard as a squadmate at the start of ME3 (or reunited soon after). She is provided with the basics: Dialogue with Shepard, LI continuity dialogue, Mission one-liners, some inter-squad dialogue.

At some point a Shepard with a surviving Tali will received a minor bonus subplot to establish her as Admiral. After which point she will function in a post-squadmate extended cameo role only. (Imagine an extended role similarly to Liara with the upcoming addition Lair of the Shadow Broker but accommodating of a placeholder.)

Her integration in the larger story/plot is as the Admiral. So only for her role as Admiral will a placeholder be provided as opposed to creating an entire duplicate squadmate for the entire length of the game.

There could be consequences for a dead squadmate. If Tali survives perhaps the Geth and Quarians can be reconciled, at least temporarily, and both available as allies - an option that may not be available if the Admiral is a placeholder. There may also be no reason why she cannot rejoin the squad after her ''cameo'' role is complete.

(2) Specialist-based missions. The suicide mission specialist roles were an extremely abbreviated use of this concept.

Example.
You hired a thief in ME2 (if you have Kasumi). Now imagine you had actually needed to steal something to advance the plot/story. Secondly imagine you have more than one thief squadmate to select from to complete that mission. Substiute “thief” for “engineer” or “biotic” or whatever the case may be. You should be getting the idea.

Select an ME2 continuing squadmate or a new character for the mission. This character is the “star” of that particular mission. The mission is the same or mostly the same regardless of the character selected. Primarily the dialogue is different. Nevertheless it gives the character a specific role in the story/plot. Possibly the mission outcome could vary depending on your choice of character -- adding an additional edge of replayability and perk for having a surviving ME2 character.

Unlike a mission directly related to a character (like the loyalty/recruitment missions) it is instead centric to her class/skills --making the mission highly interchangeable with another character of similar skills.

Modifié par Pulse-eater, 12 août 2010 - 04:00 .